I am hoping someone might be able to help solve some problems I am having with our new puppy. Finzi is 14 weeks old, and we just got him a week ago. He is a product of a puppy mill, and for whatever reason, the pet stores passed on him and we got him from a rescue society.

Finzi is extraordinarily sweet, but we are having some difficulties. When I put him in his crate, he always poops and pees. We get no notice that this is going to happen - no crying or anything - and it doesn't seem to matter how long he has been in the crate or how recently he has gone to the bathroom! We tried getting a few things - I took the blanket out of the crate (it was soaking up the liquid) and we put him in a smaller crate. We take him out as often as possible, but he seems to be a pooping, peeing machine! To make matters worse, I find him soaked in his own urine (reasonable to deal with), but there is no poop, because HE ATE IT (not as reasonable - his puppy kisses are pretty stinky!).

However - I think this is really interesting - he really wants to be with our 2-yr old Rhodesian/Boxer mix (who normally sleeps on her bed, not in a crate). Last night, I crated both of them in the same crate and Finzi had no accidents. I took him out in the middle of the night because our OTHER dog was crying, probably because she isn't used to being in a crate, except when we leave for work. Finzi was a dream though.

So should the older dog just get used to being in the same crate and get over it? I don't mean to rob her of her freedom and cushy bed, but if it means I am actually able to sleep rather than cleaning poop and pee in the middle of the night, I'm all for it.

I've never owned such a young puppy, much less one that came from a puppy mill, so I don't know if this is "normal" behavior or not. He seems to produce more waste material than our 50-lb. dog - it's amazing! We put him outside very frequently and reward with praise and treats, but if he has to go while in the house (even if he just peed 10 minutes ago), he doesn't seem to have much guilt about going inside. And he puts out so little, that if we try to stop him or move him to a housebreaking pad, he is already finished peeing and I think it just confuses him to be immediately transported to across the room for no apparent reason!

Any thoughts? Perhaps this is all totally normal behaviour, but I want to make sure he is raised properly and potty-trained as quickly as possible. Thanks for the advice - it is greatly appreciated!

First I'd like to thank you for having such a kind heart and taking in this problem pup:) Unfortunately, with puppy mill and pet store puppies, this is common. They're used to being in a crate all the time therefore have no choice (and no problem with) soiling where they sleep. Labman has great advice when it comes to potty training and Rubypitbull is always helpful. I'm no expert but I can say I've had sleepless nights and long days with problematic potty training. I just adopted a new puppy who was about 4 months old when we got her and had been in a similar situation of being crated for very long periods. It's been a tough road but she seems to be coming along nicely and has been fully accident free since Friday! As for the other dog, maybe she will serve as a good training tool for Finzi since he seems to go accident free with her in the crate. Maybe try slowly decreasing the amount time the other dog is in there? It's never a good idea to have two dogs in the same crate but I completely understand where you're coming from, desperate times call for desperate measures. Of course the two dog per crate thing can't be permanent. Consistency is key, especially in situations like this. Best of luck to you and your puppy! He should come around!

Read through the sticky at https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/dogs/i...tml#post251809
You might see how 2 crates next to each other work with older dog's pad in its crate.

Katie is right on target with the fact that these dogs are harder to train due to their becoming accustomed to their horrendous living conditions. You are a very kind person for adopting him and I truly hope that he doesn't have any major health issues as he ages. Please follow labman's advice regarding the training. He also has some information regarding putting in a wire tray of sorts into the bottom of Finzi's crate, that will at least help to separate the pup from his own urine. I can't find the info at the moment, but I am sure when he sees my post, he will pull it up and post it for you.

Correction - the two dogs in one crate seems to have no bearing. I guess we were just lucky the first night (and I also got up to take them out twice).

Yesterday, I went to work and put them both in the crate, only to come back to find a urine soaked blanket (my husband wanted them to be more comfortable) that was covered with poop. I threw the blanket out as it was pretty much beyond help.

Last night, we thought we would try it again as their afternoon session was about 5 hours, and probably too much to expect. We thought we would give it one more shot in the crate together so I can get some sleep sometime. Not surprisingly, the puppy pooped in the crate nearly every two hours, all night long. I am on the floor scrubbing at 2, 4, 6, and now almost 8 am. Again, no whimpering. Just movement in the crate (and obviously stink!) after it was already done. Time to separate them.

Just this morning, we went upstairs after our morning bathroom break and subsequent feeding. Finzi actually went into his smaller crate to do his business. Luckily, I caught him and took him back outside to finish. So he obviously thinks it is appropriate to poo in his crate. Oddly enough, he hasn't been peeing in the crate though (which is new).

Should I be setting an alarm and taking him out as a preventative measure, or will this establish a routine that I really don't want to keep up for the rest of his life? I bought "Potty Mouth" at the pet store yesterday, in hopes that will keep him from eating it, so we'll see how that works.

Also, most of his poo (especially at night) is pretty loose. Is this possibly something medical? I would assume it's probably like diarrhea because he is eating so much poop that has already gone through his system, but perhaps he needs to go to the vet.

IS THERE ANY HOPE?? I think I'm turning in to an insomniac!

Finzi, because of his age, he does need at least one potty break during the night and probably two. They just can't hold it that long. As frustrating as this is, if he appears to be pottying every two hours, then you need to adjust your schedule to fit into his, and get him outside. The more often you can give him the praise when he does his business outside, the sooner he is going to make the connection. Just remember, big praise when he does it outside, ignore the times he does it inside when you don't catch him in the middle of it (just clean up the mess), and if you catch him doing it inside, a sharp "Ah ah ah" in a firm staccato voice, to get his attention focused on you and interrupting him in the act. Then gently pick him, get him on a leash and get him outside. When he continues his business outside, praise, praise, praise. He is eventually going to make the connection that he will get happy attention from you when he does his business outside, and he will be ignored or interrupted when he does it inside. If he is food motivated, treat him with very small treats and heap the loving praise on him.

Since he is a product of a puppy mill, it might not just be conditions he was living in, but he may not be the smartest little pup. So, this is really about being as patient as you can and consistency in corrections is the key.

Have you had him to your own vet since you brought him home. If not, it is time to take him in for a general health check and get him on a shot schedule. Bring in some of his poop to make sure he doesn't have worms, giardia, or other parasites.

Well, that's a relief! I keep seeing posts that dogs should be able to make it 4 hours during the day (1 hour for every month, plus one hour formula) and that they should have "no problem" making it overnight. I really wanted to know if this was something anybody else had experienced for a little piece of mind. Waking up every two hours for the next fifteen years of my life sounds pretty unappealing!

Also the fostering family said he wasn't housetrained, but was probably further along than most dogs his age. He understands to do his business when we take him outside, and she said she let him out constantly with the other 4 dogs currently in their home. In reality, I saw him piddle on the rug as we were signing papers for him, and I also think there was a pile of poo in their dining room. I imagine there are quarter size spots of urine ALL OVER their home, so looking back, I guess I should have known we were going to have some serious issues - it just seemed either naïve or somewhat misleading in the way his training had been described.

He had been to the vet in the two weeks before got him. He has been wormed and is up to date on shots, so I haven't taken him in myself - the next thing he needs is rabies and neutering, but we obviously have some time before that happens. However, the consistency of his stool seems unusual. We have been trying to feed him his dinner in the late afternoon so he has a chance to process everything and be done with the pooping part of his day, but I actually think it's worse at night, especially the diarrhea.

Thanks for your thoughts - I've read loads of websites and several posts on this site about other people's problems, but I guess we like to have assurance that we're not totally screwing up this precious little dog. Or vice versa, ha!

Honey, there are a couple of things you need to be aware of. First, the foster family wanted to get him adopted out. So, you are not always going to get the truth when it comes to a puppy and housebreaking. You are definitely not alone and you will not be walking him every 2 hours for the next 14 years! LOL. He is very young and puppies do not have control over bladder and bowels. The control comes as he ages. Training definitely is not an overnight deal. Some dogs can be housebroken in a matter of days, others take a few months. As I said, consistency is the key.

Secondly, you need to get the dog into the vets office. He is at an age where he can pick up viruses easily. He needs to be on a schedule to protect him against Parvo virus. Labman has a link that hopefully he will post so that you can read up on it. It is a very deadly virus and we have been seeing a number of people posting that have lost dogs to parvo. I was off for a few days when Katieperez first showed up here. Sadly, one of her pups was a victim so she can tell you firsthand about the heartbreak that it brings. Your vet should check and make sure that Finzi is not suffering from any of the problems that I mentioned. Since Finzi is eating poop (which, by the way, is very, very common with puppies and young dogs), it is important to make sure he didn't pick anything up from one of the other dogs he was living with.

I completely understand your nervousness. It is actually a good sign. It shows that you are a caring person who is trying to do the right thing by a dog that received a very poor start in life. I always find for me, when I am dealing with a puppy or a foster that has a housetraining issue, I will put aside a few days and keep that dog by my side 24/7. I watch them carefully. As soon as I see the moving around in a circle or the beginning of a squat, I interrupt it and get them outside immediately. You will have a number of interrupted nights for the next few weeks, but it should start tapering off.

Again, I hope labman shows up with his info regarding putting in a wire bottom in the crate and his other constructive input. He deals with puppies far more frequently than I do. I am usually retraining older dogs with issues for placement.

I have already covered some of RubyPitbulls issues. The parvo link is Canine Parvovirus, What you should know about I trust the AVMA site far more that some site somebody Googles up. Tons of sites out there full of disinformation put up by kooks.

It is possible to produce puppies that can go 4-5 hours and keep their crate fresh. I seldom have problems leaving 7 week old ones that long. Keeping them healthy is important. In the sticky at https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/dogs/i...tml#post251802 I list a vet in the needs with little more explanation. Clearing up UTI"s and loose bowels is essential to keeping the crate clean for longer periods.

It is easy for me to get going on people producing such difficult puppies to make a nickel. Since I have been given some limited authority and am expected to use it to keep things civil here, I am expected to set a good example.

I forget what all I have said where today. Ruby is right about their lack of control. Activity stimulates elimination. Walking and being alone shut in a small crate have opposite effects.

Labman, I am sorry I didn't realize that you edited your sticky with information regarding the wire grid on the bottom of the crate. Do you have a picture of what it looks like that you can post for her so that there isn't any question as to how to do it?

We also haven't talked about food. I am wondering how much Finzi is eating and how often. It might very well be that he is being overfed, hence the pooping every two hours.?

Finzi was being fed what seems to be a lot of food to me when we got him. The rescue group told me he was being fed twice a day, a cup (? ) each time. This seems absurd to me since our 50 lb dog was being fed 2 cups! Finzi is only 5 pounds right now, but obviously growing..

We compromised by feeding him 3/4 cup twice a day, once around 8 am, and the next around 4 pm. He doesn't finish it all (and we don't leave it out all day for him to snack), so I leave the food in there and put less in for the second feeding.

I am feeding him Science Diet "Small Bites" for puppies. He is really keen on trying to steal our larger dog's food (we feed her Nutro), but we keep the food away from him as much as possible. We are not feeding him table scraps, but we do give him incredibly small bites of treats for his potty-training.

I read somewhere that Science Diet is bad for dogs... I don't know if that is true... we originally bought a bag of Nutro, because that's what we feed Bella. However, that's what he was originally eating, so I didn't want to throw anymore change than necessary on him during his transition to living with us.

Good news though - my husband just checked in on the dogs during lunch hour, and Finzi had no accidents! YAY! Granted, it was only two hours or so, but hey - small victories are still victories, right? I sectioned off his crate with a giant cardboard box, and maybe it's working... will keep updating as we go...

I am SO appreciative of the time and advice everyone is giving! Thank you so much!

You are right, two cups is a lot for a such small breed dog. If he looks like a chubby pup, you might want to consider giving him half a cup in the morning & half in the evening. The fact that he won't finish his food and he is pooping so much is a bit of a clue that it might be too much. I think the correct amounts should be discussed with the vet.

Definitely celebrate the small victories!

You're absolutely right, small victories are still victories, and it seems as though this is a HUGE victory!! I'm so glad to hear that and I couldn't help but laugh as I read your last post because I still jump for joy when my husband or I get home for lunch and my Brandy has gone without an accident! Excellent move to section off the crate by the way. As for the food, I feel like I remember hearing that about science diet also. I can't be sure so don't take my word for it. The others in this thread are better ones to answer your food questions. We've always fed all our dogs Iams. Here's an idea also, I know how expensive treats can get, especially when potty training, so what we do is reward with a kibble of their food. They're less likely to become fatsos that way too! Don't get me wrong, we still give them treats, but only occasionally. But hey, I always say, stick with what's working. Congrats again Finzi!

I forgot to talk about Science Diet! The recall was voluntary by Hill's and it was only the Feline Savory Cuts, the canned cat food. There is absolutely no problem with any of their kibble. I actually feed my "permanent dog resident" LOL, the Science Diet W/D.

I thought I had the current version of using a grid when I first put up the sticky. I mention them in What does a puppy need, but have the newest material in housebreaking.

http://www.photolocker.net/images/La...highanddry.jpg

Ruby brought a good point on the food. If, as it sounds, you are over feeding him, it will lead to excessive bowel movements. I often post this link LongLiveYourDog.com - Life Span Study - Rate Your Dog with the suggestion you have your vet confirm your judgment.

Yes you frequently read that Science and other popular brands of dog chow are bad for dogs. Check some of the banner ads here. It is a pack of lies spread by those selling more expensive chows and those they have duped. I am sorry, but I trust the vets selling Science more than I trust unknowns on some website frothing at the mouth over ingredients. I had a puppy that after her second bladder infection my vet put her on Science C/D. She did fine, and no more infections. I didn't see her X-rays, but they were OFA good or better, just like the thousands of dogs I have seen that grew up on Pro Plan chicken and rice. I also know of even more doing well on Iams. Last Saturday I was at a party with about 100 dogs mostly eating Purina 1 with all its terrible ingredients. I didn't see a hot spot, dull coat, excessive itch, lack of energy, loose bowel, etc. in the bunch. I say most of what you read about dog chow is the stuff you need to be careful not to step in where the male bovines are pastured. For a balanced view including what I think are lies, see http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/images/nutrition-off.jpg That website belongs to somebody that as far as I know is selling dogs, not dog chow.

So does anyone think that is an excessive amount of food for a five pound dog (he is getting about a cup and a half per day, two servings of 3/4 cup)? He seems so small...

****Posted earlier by Ruby**** You are right, two cups is a lot for a such small breed dog. If he looks like a chubby pup, you might want to consider giving him half a cup in the morning & half in the evening. The fact that he won't finish his food and he is pooping so much is a bit of a clue that it might be too much. I think the correct amounts should be discussed with the vet.

That is about half what I would be giving a 20-30 pound Lab at that age. Is he too fat by my link?

He does have a roundish tummy. The rescue society person said he had been wormed several times (would complications of that sort make his tummy make him more plump?) and that he was fine. Maybe we should cut back on his food.

He's still dealing with a lot of evening diarrhea. His last movement was pretty much liquid. The first time we took our other dog on an 1800 mile road trip, she came down with symptoms of diarrhea and vomiting - Finzi is not vomiting, but we are wondering if it is a similar stress related condition. I'm thinking we need to go to the vet.

On a more positive note, Finzi ran all the way upstairs to go potty on one of the training pads (oddly enough, he was right by the door to go outside, but we'll take that over him pooping on the rug!). Woohoo!

There are a variety of parasites, most of which I can't spell, that even the best of puppies have leading to loose bowels. A good vet will find and fix the problem. It does sound like you need to cut back on the food.