There were bodies everywhere, and no one could recognize where their house used to be, This was a fact during the Tsunami that destroyed the village and homes of many in December 2004. Many were praying that day through tears and clenched teeth.

Many view natural disaster as a punishment from God. One hurricane recently was described as “the fist of God.” When hurricane Katrina hit in 2005, some religious leaders described it as “God’s wrath.” On “sin cities.”

Many religious leaders when asked why these things happen; the just reply “We don’t know whey these things happen We don’t even know why we’re here.”

When you see images of wrecked homes, lost lives, and broken hearts, do you sometimes wonder;
“Why does God permit so much suffering?”
Does he truly permit it or does he cause it?
Is God responsible?
If there is a God, why doesn’t he just stop it, if he cares?

What do you think? How would you answer these questions?
Take care,
Hope12

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hope12

There were bodies everywhere, and no one could recognize where their house used to be, This was a fact during the Tsunami that destroyed the village and homes of many in December 2004. Many were praying that day through tears and clenched teeth.

Many view natural disaster as a punishment from God. One hurricane recently was described as “the fist of God.” When hurricane Katrina hit in 2005, some religious leaders described it as “God’s wrath.” On “sin cities.”

Many religious leaders when asked why these things happen; the just reply “We don’t know whey these things happen We don’t even know why we’re here.”

When you see images of wrecked homes, lost lives, and broken hearts, do you sometimes wonder;
“Why does God permit so much suffering?”
Does he truly permit it or does he cause it?
Is God responsible?
If there is a God, why doesn’t he just stop it, if he cares?

What do you think? How would you answer these questions?
Take care,
Hope12

---

I share in your horror and shock at the tragedies that the world has witnessed over the last couple of years. Any thinking person must ask the questions that you are asking. Some feel that this challenge to their faith is insurmountable. That is understandable. But, without defending G-d, perhaps we have to separate between rejecting G-d and being angry with Him.

Any time even one innocent person suffers, we are faced with a contradiction: the belief in a just and kind G-d on the one hand, and the suffering of innocents on the other. Most prefer the easy way out of the moral tension caused by this contradiction and settle with one of two simplistic positions: either G-d is not responsible, because He doesn't exist or He is powerless; or the victims were not innocents because they deserved punishment. Jewish thought, however, does not look for easy solutions.

Here is a different approach:

1) G-d is responsible. We cannot accept the cowardly theology that G-d is not responsible -- that anything that happens in the world that doesn't mesh with our idea of His goodness is just an amoral and indifferent act of nature. For who is responsible for nature if not G-d? And what type of a G-d is He if He cannot control nature?

2) This is not a punishment. G-d is not a vicious tyrant who indiscriminately punishes the wicked with the innocent. Even in the biblical flood innocent people were spared. Which moral person could have the chutzpah to say that all those who perished in this deluge deserved it?

3) We don't want an explanation. If we had an explanation, then we could go on with our lives as usual. We could be comfortable that there is a nice and neat justification for hundreds of thousands of deaths and the suffering of millions. That would be a further tragedy.

4) We can be disappointed with G-d. There is a Jewish tradition of even the most righteous people objecting to G-d's decisions. Abraham tried to defend the people of Sodom although G-d wanted to destroy them, and Moses interceded for the Israelites after the episode of the golden calf, when G-d had decreed that they be wiped out. We don't have to agree with divine decrees. We have a right to be upset at G-d. Even after the event, although we accept that He is the True Judge, if we see what we feel to be an injustice, we can't be at peace with it. We must scream at G-d and demand an end to such pain.

The Jewish response to tragedy is daring and challenging: don't solve the paradox, let it disturb you. There is a real contradiction: a kind G-d has allowed unimaginable suffering, and this does not make sense. From the tension of facing this contradiction comes an urge to do something -- that the world must change to be a place of only goodness and peace. The suffering of innocents does not fit into my worldview; thus it must end. We must do what we can to alleviate the suffering of people around us. Then we can turn to G-d and demand that He do the same.

Don't abandon belief in G-d, and don't abandom belief in human innocence. Allow the two to create a holy tension that results in a passion for goodness -- and do something about it.

<question moved from forum help to member discussions>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hope12

There were bodies everywhere, and no one could recognize where their house used to be, This was a fact during the Tsunami that destroyed the village and homes of many in December 2004. Many were praying that day through tears and clenched teeth.

Many view natural disaster as a punishment from God. One hurricane recently was described as “the fist of God.” When hurricane Katrina hit in 2005, some religious leaders described it as “God's wrath.” On “sin cities.”

Many religious leaders when asked why these things happen; the just reply “We don't know whey these things happen We don't even know why we're here.”

When you see images of wrecked homes, lost lives, and broken hearts, do you sometimes wonder;
“Why does God permit so much suffering?”
Does he truly permit it or does he cause it?
Is God responsible?
If there is a God, why doesn't he just stop it, if he cares?

What do you think? How would you answer these questions?
Take care,
Hope12

---

I live in one of the countries hit by the Tsunami.
I and my family were spared, this I believe does not mean that I am a perfect or most good human being ,but I could say I found my faith after the tsunami and the birth of my daughter.
I realised my purpose in life was not to live a life pleasing other human beings who cannot help me after my death whether good or bad,but it is the Almighty that I needed to abide.

The Tsunami made me realise that it takes just one wave sweeping from so far away to crash into our shores to obliterate us.
I have seen many others who have turned back to religion because of the tsunami,many have lost all their livelihoods and many family members,but with the increase in their faiths,they believe it is a gift that they have been given a second chance to live,a life pleasing the Almighty and to work for the final reward.

“Why does God permit so much suffering?”
This life in this world I believe is only temporary, the Hereafter is the eternal life,hence all things we face in this world is a test whether it be in happiness or sadness,rich or poor,beautiful or ugly, tall or short,dark or fair.It is I believe the piety(god-consciousness) of a person that truly matters with the Almighty in the end.

I also believe that suffering or pain we have in this world maybe an expiation and it helps clean our slate and brings us closer to the love and mercy of the Almighty who maybe forgiving us as we bear with patience the hardships in life.

Does he truly permit it or does he cause it?
Is God responsible?
The Almighty permits it as He is the Most Merciful, he is giving people a chance to rethink what life really means,
Is it collecting material comfort and money?Or is it to humbly accept whatever we face with courage and belief in the Almighty and Hope for better reward and prayer for guidance from the Almighty.

If there is a God, why doesn't he just stop it, if he cares?
There is an Almighty God and He has repeatedly through the ages sent messengers and reminders that He is the One True God yet many persisted in harming the messengers themselves and slandering their names and disobeying the laws and guidance sent down in the revealed books.
People are being warned all the time and there are signs all around the universe and earth for those who look beyond the life of this world.Some find the path to light and accept the Almighty's decree whether it be happiness or sorrow,but bear with patience whatever they face knowing that the ultimate reward is with Him.

I also believe that no one is burdened beyond his capacity.
Each one receives only what can be borne and we cannot know those who will persevere in hardship and those who will not, that knowledge is with the Almighty.

I may not have faced much hardships in life like many I know,it maybe because I am weaker than most of them and that I could not have borne such hardships well.
But it is my duty as a muslim to help those in need and in suffering, that is a test for those who have enough and more, to spend for the sake of the Almighty's approval and not for fame or recognition among the people.

P.S. This is my personal belief and my own opinion,there maybe those who disagree with me...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rina _4

I share in your horror and shock at the tragedies that the world has witnessed over the last couple of years. Any thinking person must ask the questions that you are asking. Some feel that this challenge to their faith is insurmountable. That is understandable. But, without defending G-d, perhaps we have to separate between rejecting G-d and being angry with Him.

Any time even one innocent person suffers, we are faced with a contradiction: the belief in a just and kind G-d on the one hand, and the suffering of innocents on the other. Most prefer the easy way out of the moral tension caused by this contradiction and settle with one of two simplistic positions: either G-d is not responsible, because He doesn't exist or He is powerless; or the victims were not innocents because they deserved punishment. Jewish thought, however, does not look for easy solutions.

Here is a different approach:

1) G-d is responsible. We cannot accept the cowardly theology that G-d is not responsible -- that anything that happens in the world that doesn't mesh with our idea of His goodness is just an amoral and indifferent act of nature. For who is responsible for nature if not G-d? And what type of a G-d is He if He cannot control nature?

2) This is not a punishment. G-d is not a vicious tyrant who indiscriminately punishes the wicked with the innocent. Even in the biblical flood innocent people were spared. Which moral person could have the chutzpah to say that all those who perished in this deluge deserved it?

3) We don't want an explanation. If we had an explanation, then we could go on with our lives as usual. We could be comfortable that there is a nice and neat justification for hundreds of thousands of deaths and the suffering of millions. That would be a further tragedy.

4) We can be disappointed with G-d. There is a Jewish tradition of even the most righteous people objecting to G-d's decisions. Abraham tried to defend the people of Sodom although G-d wanted to destroy them, and Moses interceded for the Israelites after the episode of the golden calf, when G-d had decreed that they be wiped out. We don't have to agree with divine decrees. We have a right to be upset at G-d. Even after the event, although we accept that He is the True Judge, if we see what we feel to be an injustice, we can't be at peace with it. We must scream at G-d and demand an end to such pain.

The Jewish response to tragedy is daring and challenging: don't solve the paradox, let it disturb you. There is a real contradiction: a kind G-d has allowed unimaginable suffering, and this does not make sense. From the tension of facing this contradiction comes an urge to do something -- that the world must change to be a place of only goodness and peace. The suffering of innocents does not fit into my worldview; thus it must end. We must do what we can to alleviate the suffering of people around us. Then we can turn to G-d and demand that He do the same.

Don't abandon belief in G-d, and don't abandom belief in human innocence. Allow the two to create a holy tension that results in a passion for goodness -- and do something about it.

---

I think that I agree to disagree. First, I believe that God allows suffering but he does not cause suffering. Mankind has abused the home, earth, to the point of now suffering the effects of that abuse. That is not God's fault but mankinds in general. We as humans can no even direct our own footsteps, how can we direct other's footsteps?

Mankind in general is alianated from God, How? Not by God's choice. He has told us what is good and bad and yet many do not listen. These ones feel they know more or better then God. The results is what we see happening to this world. Can we humans fix the global warming or the crazy weather and killer hurricanes and the earthquakes and other disasters? NO THEY CAN NOT! They are the cause of much of this world disasters because of the way they abuse the gift of their home, earth.

To me, it will take God's intervention to cure mankinds mess. Much of today's health issues are mankinds fault also. With wars, and crime and violence and guns and bombs that leave chemicals that ruin the earth and thes chemicals can affect our health. What about the immorality that is everywhere on this earth. This has caused Aids and STD's and many other diseases. Chemicals in our food and in animal grains, cause other problems like cancer and mad cows disease and who knows what else.

God is not at fault, mankind selfish greed for presidense and power and wanting to control others has lead this earth and those residing in it, in the condition it is in, not God. Why blame God , God does not cause it, but he does allow in to exist. Why? To prove to man forever, that man can not direct his own steps alliannated from God, how can he direct a world of mankind? He, can't, nor can he cure the mess he has caused. Pollution, crime, violence, sickness, disasters will all one day be cured by God, not man.

God knew from the beginning of time, that mankind’s independence, or self-rule, would result in much suffering. Was it unjust or unkind of him, then, to allow the inevitable to run its course? Not at all!

Let me illustrate what I mean: If your child gets a life threatening sickness and needs an operation to cure the sickness, would you allow the child to go through surgery that would cure them. Would not the child still suffer pain and a degree of suffering? Why even to see your child scrape their knee hurts you, but you will allow your child to undergo the operation to save their life, wouldn’t you? Similarly, God knew, and even foretold, that his allowance of human rule would bring along with it a measure of pain and suffering. Genesis 3:16-19

But doesn’t that make God unjust and uncaring? No it does not because he DID NOT cause the suffering and pain. He though knows that lasting and meaningful relief would be possible only if he allowed all mankind to see the bad fruitage produced by rebellion.

In this way the issue could be settled permanently, for all eternity.
Until that time , we live in “critical times hard to deal with.” As 2 Timothy 3:1 tells us.
Injustice and “acts of oppression” have resulted in many cruel abuses. Ecclesiastes 4:1
God has not changed nor does he change.. He hates injustice, and he hates to see us suffer. He cares deeply for those who are victims of what mankind has done to the earth and the effects of the abuse they have caused.. If we remain loyal to God and his sovereignty, he will give us the strength to endure until the appointed time when he will correct all injustices under his Kingdom rule.

Take care,
Hope12

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hope12

There were bodies everywhere, and no one could recognize where their house used to be, This was a fact during the Tsunami that destroyed the village and homes of many in December 2004. Many were praying that day through tears and clenched teeth.

Many view natural disaster as a punishment from God. One hurricane recently was described as “the fist of God.” When hurricane Katrina hit in 2005, some religious leaders described it as “God’s wrath.” On “sin cities.”

Many religious leaders when asked why these things happen; the just reply “We don’t know whey these things happen We don’t even know why we’re here.”

When you see images of wrecked homes, lost lives, and broken hearts, do you sometimes wonder;
“Why does God permit so much suffering?”

---

I used to. At one time, it contributed to my losing my faith.

Quote:

---

Does he truly permit it or does he cause it?

---

God does not cause it, but He permits it:

Job 1:6 Now on a certain day when the sons of God came to stand before the Lord, Satan also was present among them. 7 And the Lord said to him: Whence comest thou? And he answered and said: I have gone round about the earth, and walked through it. 8 And the Lord said to him: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a simple and upright man, and fearing God, and avoiding evil? 9 And Satan answering, said: Doth Job fear God in vain? 10 Hast not thou made a fence for him, and his house, and all his substance round about, blessed the works of his hands, and his possession hath increased on the earth? 11 But stretch forth thy hand a little, and touch all that he hath, and see if he blesseth thee not to thy face. 12 Then the Lord said to Satan: Behold, all that he hath is in thy hand: only put not forth thy hand upon his person. And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Satan is God's instrument to test our faith.

Job 23 10 But he knoweth my way, and has tried me as gold that passeth through the fire:

Psalms 16 3 Thou hast proved my heart, and visited it by night, thou hast tried me by fire: and iniquity hath not been found in me.

Quote:

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Is God responsible?

---

Yes. Ultimately God is responsible for everything in Creation:

Deuteronomy 30 19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Ecclesiasticus 11 14 Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches, are from God.

Quote:

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If there is a God,

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Yes, God exists.

Quote:

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why doesn’t he just stop it, if he cares?

---

It is all in His Divine plan. We tend to think of suffering as something bad. But it is actually very good. People who are suffering frequently pray when they wouldn't otherwise.

Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Quote:

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What do you think? How would you answer these questions?

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I think love conquers all. God is love and we must put our faith in Him that what He has prescribed for us is for our own eternal good.

Quote:

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Take care,
Hope12

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You too.

Sincerely,

De Maria

To All:

A Prayer to G-d

"May it be Your will, Hashem, our G-d and the and the G-d of our fathers, that we observe Your decrees in this world, and merit to live, see, and inherit goodness and blessing in the years of Messianic Times and for life in the world to come." Amen and Amen.
(Uba LeZion prayer, end of Shacharit Morning Prayers, Artscroll Siddur, p. 154)

Reading the book of Job carefully might be helpful. Also consider that when sin entered the Earth, all creation came under the curse, not just man. Then there is Satan, who the Bible calls the "prince of the power of the air". God will eventually bring everything under perfect control, but at this time, that is not so, otherwise we would have to blame God for every bad thing as well as thank Him for every good thing. God gets slandered and libeled all the time. Again, read the discourses of Job's friends carefully and then ask why was God angry with them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Yes. Ultimately God is responsible for everything in Creation:

Deuteronomy 30 19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Ecclesiasticus 11 14 Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches, are from God.

---

Quick question to the first scripture reference-Doesn't the word "Choose" imply that it is our responsibility? God sets before us life and death, blessing and cursing... it is up to us to CHOOSE life, not death... it is up to us to CHOOSE the blessings, not the curses... When He created man He chose to give us something called "free will"... God is responsible for all He created, however, WE are responsible for what we have done with His creation. (in my humble opinion :) )

As to the second scripture reference, I just could not find it :( Could you help me to find the scripture you were referring to? Ecclesiastes 11 has no verse 14... was it maybe a different Book of the Bible? Thanks!
XoXo
Mychele

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MycheleXoXo

Quick question to the first scripture reference-Doesn't the word "Choose" imply that it is our responsibility?

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That depends on what we are talking about. I posted the verse to emphasize that God is ULTIMATELY responsible for everything. However, we bear the responsibility for our actions and their consequences. We also bear responsibility for our response to the trials which God permits us to undergo in this life. But we aren't responsible for those trials.

Quote:

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God sets before us life and death, blessing and cursing... it is up to us to CHOOSE life, not death... it is up to us to CHOOSE the blessings, not the curses...

---

Correct. For instance, when God sends a hurricane into your life, how do you respond? Do you choose life by acting responsibly to secure your life and by acting humanely to help others?


Luke 13:1 And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? 3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe, and slew them: think you, that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Quote:

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When He created man He chose to give us something called "free will"... God is responsible for all He created, however, WE are responsible for what we have done with His creation. (in my humble opinion :) )

---

You are correct.

Quote:

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As to the second scripture reference, I just could not find it :( Could you help me to find the scripture you were referring to? Ecclesiastes 11 has no verse 14... was it maybe a different Book of the Bible? Thanks!
XoXo
Mychele

---

Douay-Rheims Bible, Ecclesiasticus Chapter 11

Ecclesiasticus
Chapter 11

Lessons of humility and moderation in all things.

1 The wisdom of the humble shall exalt his head, and shall make him sit in the midst of great men. 2 Praise not a man for his beauty, neither despise a man for his look. 3 The bee is small among flying things, but her fruit hath the chiefest sweetness. 4 Glory not in apparel at any time, and be not exalted in the day of thy honour: for the works of the Highest only are wonderful, and his works are glorious, and secret, and hidden. 5 Many tyrants have sat on the throne, and he whom no man would think on, hath worn the crown.

6 Many mighty men have been greatly brought down, and the glorious have been delivered into the hand of others. 7 Before thou inquire, blame no man: and when thou hast inquired, reprove justly. 8 Before thou hear, answer not a word: and interrupt not others in the midst of their discourse. 9 Strive not in a matter which doth not concern thee, and sit not in judgment with sinners. 10 My son, meddle not with many matters: and if thou be rich, thou shalt not be free from sin: for if thou pursue after thou shalt not overtake: and if thou run before thou shalt not escape.

11 There is an ungodly man that laboureth, and maketh haste, and is in sorrow, and is so much the more in want. 12 Again, there is an inactive man that wanteth help, is very weak in ability, and full of poverty: 13 Yet the eye of God hath looked upon him for good, and hath lifted him up from his low estate, and hath exalted his head: and many have wondered at him, and have glorified God. 14 Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches, are from God. 15 Wisdom and discipline, and the knowledge of the law are with God. Love and the ways of good things are with him...

You can also find it here:
Sirach 11:14 Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches, are from God.
BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in over 35 languages and 50 versions.

Sincerely,

Might be worthwhile to explore the difference between penance (Douay) and repentance (King James)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Might be worthwhile to explore the difference between penance (Douay) and repentance (King James)

---

Defnintion of penance:
# repentance: remorse for your past conduct
# a Catholic sacrament; repentance and confession and satisfaction and absolution
# voluntary self-punishment in order to atone for some wrongdoing
Wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Sincerely,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

defnintion of penance:
# repentance: remorse for your past conduct
# a Catholic sacrament; repentance and confession and satisfaction and absolution
# voluntary self-punishment in order to atone for some wrongdoing
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Sincerely,

---

It is the voluntary self punishment that I have a problem with.
Isa 53:5
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
(KJV)

1. Jesus has already suffered for our sins.
2. To believe that we must punish ourselves shows unbelief in what Jesus already accomplished, and is an effort at self-justification, which puts in in the category of being saved by works.

Sorry, I guess this is off the subject.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galveston1

It is the voluntary self punishment that I have a problem with.
Isa 53:5
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
(KJV)

1. Jesus has already suffered for our sins.
2. To believe that we must punish ourselves shows unbelief in what Jesus already accomplished, and is an effort at self-justification, which puts in in the category of being saved by works.

Sorry, I guess this is off the subject.

---

I for one don't care that it is a little off subject-you are 100% correct!
We are saved by grace-nothing we do. Taking on the role of punishment does exactly what you stated... it's also arrogant beyond belief to think WE can do what God sent His Son to do for us.

Great answer-thanx for posting it!
XoXo
Mychele

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galveston1

It is the voluntary self punishment that I have a problem with.
Isa 53:5
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
(KJV)

1. Jesus has already suffered for our sins.

---

He gave us an example to follow:
1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.

But we must cooperate and unite ourselves to His suffering in order for His sacrifice to be effective in our lives:
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

If we suffer with Him we will be glorified with Him:
Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Because if we don't suffer with Him we will not be glorified with Him:
2 Timothy 2 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.

Quote:

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2. To believe that we must punish ourselves

---

Punishing ourselves was a form of discipline which is no longer encouraged because it was taken to extremes by some fervent souls. Mild disciplines such as fasting and voluntary acceptance of discomforts such as hair shirts are acceptable in order to master ones emotions.

Quote:

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shows unbelief in what Jesus already accomplished, and is an effort at self-justification, which puts in in the category of being saved by works.

---

We are neither saved by works alone nor saved by faith alone. We are justified by works which are an expression of our faith:

James 2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith... 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?. 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Quote:

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Sorry, I guess this is off the subject.

---

I hope no one minds.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

That depends on what we are talking about. I posted the verse to emphasize that God is ULTIMATELY responsible for everything. However, we bear the responsibility for our actions and their consequences. We also bear responsibility for our response to the trials which God permits us to undergo in this life. But we aren't responsible for those trials.



Correct. For instance, when God sends a hurricane into your life, how do you respond? Do you choose life by acting responsibly to secure your life and by acting humanely to help others?


Luke 13:1 And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? 3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe, and slew them: think you, that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.



You are correct.



Douay-Rheims Bible, Ecclesiasticus Chapter 11

Ecclesiasticus
Chapter 11

Lessons of humility and moderation in all things.

1 The wisdom of the humble shall exalt his head, and shall make him sit in the midst of great men. 2 Praise not a man for his beauty, neither despise a man for his look. 3 The bee is small among flying things, but her fruit hath the chiefest sweetness. 4 Glory not in apparel at any time, and be not exalted in the day of thy honour: for the works of the Highest only are wonderful, and his works are glorious, and secret, and hidden. 5 Many tyrants have sat on the throne, and he whom no man would think on, hath worn the crown.

6 Many mighty men have been greatly brought down, and the glorious have been delivered into the hand of others. 7 Before thou inquire, blame no man: and when thou hast inquired, reprove justly. 8 Before thou hear, answer not a word: and interrupt not others in the midst of their discourse. 9 Strive not in a matter which doth not concern thee, and sit not in judgment with sinners. 10 My son, meddle not with many matters: and if thou be rich, thou shalt not be free from sin: for if thou pursue after thou shalt not overtake: and if thou run before thou shalt not escape.

11 There is an ungodly man that laboureth, and maketh haste, and is in sorrow, and is so much the more in want. 12 Again, there is an inactive man that wanteth help, is very weak in ability, and full of poverty: 13 Yet the eye of God hath looked upon him for good, and hath lifted him up from his low estate, and hath exalted his head: and many have wondered at him, and have glorified God. 14 Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches, are from God. 15 Wisdom and discipline, and the knowledge of the law are with God. Love and the ways of good things are with him.....

You can also find it here:
Sirach 11:14 Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches, are from God.
BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in over 35 languages and 50 versions.

Sincerely,

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Sorry it took me so long to get back to this question... spent a lot of time thinking and praying only to discover that I'm not going to be able to respond... after reading and re-reading all the posts and your posts I finally decided this is one I'm better off leaving alone for now. I don't know anything about the Douay bible... all I know is that it's a catholic bible...

I believe people of all denominations are true believers... I don't believe in denominations. You mentioned books in a bible that I've never even heard of (the books or the bible) so I can't answer this at all without serious prayer and time to study... It's just not the right time for me to be able to devote the time it would require to give this the attention it deserves in order for me to answer in the way it deserves.

I hope this makes sense!
Be Blessed!
In His love,
XoXo
Mychele

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MycheleXoXo

I hope this makes sense!
Be Blessed!
In His love,
XoXo
Mychele

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It makes a great deal of sense. May God continue to bless and guide you.

Sincerely,