Here's a question: what do you think of Craig's claim that he never sought counsel from an attorney, copped a plea to avoid an embarrassing public spectacle, but never really committed the crime he has been accused of? He is now contemplating revoking his plea and fighting the case in court.

And what do you think about the claim being made by some (NOT CRAIG, as far as I know) that Craig was set up/framed by Dem operatives in order to get rid of a Republican Senator and replace him with a Democrat?

Personally, I think that if Craig's claim is true, he's a fool for not getting counsel. And if it's false, he's a liar. Either way, he needs to face the music.

As far as the claim of a Dem set-up/frame job, while I do not tend to be a conspiracy theorist, I can't help but remember the way George Allen was set up for the "macaca" scandal by being followed around by a paid Dem operative with a camera who was looking for a "gotcha" moment. Was this a similar situation? Was Craig set up? Even if he was, he took the bait, he was the one tapping his foot, so he should pay the piper.

Elliot

Set ups have happened before in politics. Would not surprise me. There is honestly nothing either party would consider off limits when it comes to creating or breaking a scandal to a member of the opposite party.

About Craig, he cannot sing two tunes at the same time and expect people to believe both. I do not know what happened but either way, he needed counsel. He is a fool either way.

Follow occam's razor here. Simplest explanation seems plausible.

Only thing "fishy" might be who called the police informing about lewd behavior? Had they caught others in this restroom (I know it was said it was "known" for lewd conduct)? Or is he just the unlucky moron who took a stupid chance and just happens to be a rep sen? Important people do dumb things too.

Making any statement, let alone plea, without consulting counsel is just dumb. Act of a man desperate to sweep it under the rug and not thinking clearly or act of a man desperate because he's been trapped?

Well, the only way to be "trapped" is for the officer to be lying. Period. If a guy steals a bait car, he's a car thief, "setup" or not. If the senator propositioned the officer, its done.

Now... the thing I'm curious about is how this will stand in court. Placing luggage against a door? Id do that to keep it away from the toilet. The hands and feet thing? Is that really concrete evidence? I get that these are stated as the ritual commonly done, but it sure seems to be weak evidence from a layperson's view. Its not like, oh, a blue dress or anything.

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Here's a question: what do you think of Craig's claim that he never sought counsel from an attorney, copped a plea to avoid an embarrasing public spectacle, but never really committed the crime he has been accused of? He is now contemplating revoking his plea and fighting the case in court.

And what do you think about the claim being made by some (NOT CRAIG, as far as I know) that Craig was set up/framed by Dem operatives in order to get rid of a Republican Senator and replace him with a Democrat?

Personally, I think that if Craig's claim is true, he's a fool for not getting counsel. And if it's false, he's a liar. Either way, he needs to face the music.

As far as the claim of a Dem set-up/frame job, while I do not tend to be a conspiracy theorist, I can't help but remember the way George Allen was set up for the "macaca" scandal by being followed around by a paid Dem operative with a camera who was looking for a "gotcha" moment. Was this a similar situation? Was Craig set up? Even if he was, he took the bait, he was the one tapping his foot, so he should pay the piper.

Elliot

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Here is the best report I've found.

Craig Arrested, Pleads Guilty Following Incident in Airport Restroom

Hello again, El:

You mean EX senator, don't you? He'll be gone soon.

This is an educated man who MAKES law. If he didn't know enough to get a lawyer, then he was suffering from slippage of the mind. Further evidence of his long slide is his recent recant... Because you can't recant a guilty plea. You just can't.

Before a judge accepts a guilty plea, he goes through a litany of questions, making absolutely certain that a defendant knows and fully understands what he is about to do, and what the full and complete consequences are. Then he's asked again.

Given the above, he's facing an impossible task. I can only imagine his torment, that he would humiliate himself and his family...

But, he gets no sympathy from me. If he was just some schmuck who got caught with his pants down, I'd feel sorry for him. But, he's a LAWMAKER. He makes laws based on how much he hates himself. That kind of guy SHOULD be publicly scorned, and he's doing a great job of doing it to himself. If you live by "family values", then you die by "family values".

Of course, you'd think the Dems had something to do with it.

excon

I don't see how this can be a set up. Sting operations happen in rest rooms because too many perverts hang out there . He was sending signals to the undercover cop that indicated he was looking for a quickie and for whatever reason he confessed and copped a plea.

But from a practical point there is no advantage for the Democrats to get him out . Idaho is a red state and has a Republican Governor . When Craig is persuaded to leave office (the sooner the better ) Governor Otter will appoint a Republican replacement . Then in the general election the Republican candidate will win . Hopefully they don't make the mistake of electing another RINO . I'm surprised that the problems of Congressman Rick Renzi have not gotten greater coverage. In that case they could pick off a seat. In this case all they can do is take cheap shots about family values.

Craig should come out and confess he is a water closet Democrat. Then he can cash in on this lurid affair .

Edit :

thanks for the correction Emland I have edited the response accordingly .

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Here's a question: what do you think of Craig's claim that he never sought counsel from an attorney, copped a plea to avoid an embarrasing public spectacle, but never really committed the crime he has been accused of? He is now contemplating revoking his plea and fighting the case in court.

And what do you think about the claim being made by some (NOT CRAIG, as far as I know) that Craig was set up/framed by Dem operatives in order to get rid of a Republican Senator and replace him with a Democrat?

Personally, I think that if Craig's claim is true, he's a fool for not getting counsel. And if it's false, he's a liar. Either way, he needs to face the music.

As far as the claim of a Dem set-up/frame job, while I do not tend to be a conspiracy theorist, I can't help but remember the way George Allen was set up for the "macaca" scandal by being followed around by a paid Dem operative with a camera who was looking for a "gotcha" moment. Was this a similar situation? Was Craig set up? Even if he was, he took the bait, he was the one tapping his foot, so he should pay the piper.

Elliot

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It is enough to make a self-respecting Republican want to puke; the Republican Party Headquarters must be pulling their hair out….Recent developments: Let’s see, there was Mark Foley of Florida, Jack Abramoff, Senator David Vitter of Louisiana, Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska, and Representative Rick Renzi of Arizona, both caught up in F.B.I. corruption investigations.

Perhaps Craig should consult with Bob Allen, a state representative in Florida who was jettisoned from the John McCain campaign last month after he was arrested on charges of soliciting sex in a public restroom.

Crow

Craig was ousted from the Romney Campaign . But this scandal helps Romney because he has been campaigning on the theme that Washington is hopelessly corrrupt and he is the only Republican candidate totally free of the capital city's taint .

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Here is the best report I've found.

Craig Arrested, Pleads Guilty Following Incident in Airport Restroom

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Assuming that the description in the article is accurate, and I have no reason to believe that it is not, it looks like Craig is guilty to me. Whether there is enough evidence to convict him of lewdness is a different question. But it doesn't LOOK like he was set up or framed.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

You mean EX senator, don't you? He'll be gone soon.

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He's not an "ex-senator" until he actually is gone. He is still entitled to be called senator until that happens.

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This is an educated man who MAKES law. If he didn't know enough to get a lawyer, then he was suffering from slippage of the mind.

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No disagreement here.

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Further evidence of his long slide is his recent recant... Because you can't recant a guilty plea. You just can't.

Before a judge accepts a guilty plea, he goes through a litany of questions, making absolutely certain that a defendant knows and fully understands what he is about to do, and what the full and complete consequences are. Then he's asked again.

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I would tend to agree with you, as that is how I understand the system works as well.

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Given the above, he's facing an impossible task. I can only imagine his torment, that he would humiliate himself and his family...

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Again, I would tend to agree with you. But does it work the same way for a low-level misdemeanor as it does for a felony? Did the judge, who just thought he was dealing with a minor misdemeanor case bother to go through the formalities that go with a felony guilty plea? I don't know. Apparently, some well-heeled law experts are saying that he has a good basis to recant his guilty plea and take the case to trial. I don't know the basis for that, but apparently the lawyers are in agreement that it can be done.

If the basis of the plea by Craig was that the case would never be made public, and if the case now IS public, it can be argued that the state broke its end of the plea agreement, and therefore the plea is invalid. I don't know if that is what they are planning on, but that may be it.

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But, he gets no sympathy from me. If he was just some schmuck who got caught with his pants down, I'd feel sorry for him. But, he's a LAWMAKER. He makes laws based on how much he hates himself. That kind of guy SHOULD be publicly scorned, and he's doing a great job of doing it to himself. If you live by "family values", then you die by "family values".

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Agreed. I feel for his family, though.

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Of course, you'd think the Dems had something to do with it.

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Not really. I don't think the Dems had anything to do with it. There are those who do, though. And it is plain that they are taking advantage of it. Again, I can't blame them for that. I just wish they would be as zealous about tar-and-feathering their own jerks and a-holes as they are about tar-and-feathering the Republican jerks and a-holes. If they did, it would go a long way towards cleaning up the image of Congress as a whole. Immoral behavior is immoral behavior no matter what party you belong to, and the rules of morality should apply equally to both parties.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

It is enough to make a self-respecting Republican want to puke; the Republican Party Headquarters must be pulling their hair out….Recent developments: Let’s see, there was Mark Foley of Florida, Jack Abramoff, Senator David Vitter of Louisiana, Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska, and Representative Rick Renzi of Arizona, both caught up in F.B.I. corruption investigations.

Perhaps Craig should consult with Bob Allen, a state representative in Florida who was jettisoned from the John McCain campaign last month after he was arrested on charges of soliciting sex in a public restroom.

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Yes, it is frustrating to this card-carrying Republican. Craig gets no sympathy from me.

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Assuming that the description in the article is accurate, and I have no reason to believe that it is not, it looks like Craig is guilty to me. Whether there is enough evidence to convict him of lewdness is a different question. But it doesn't LOOK like he was set up or framed.

Elliot

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Absolutely, had it been a set-up he would have been given more time and encouraged to actually expose himself, or make a verbal offer of sex. The investigator in this case was in a hurry, or poorly trained…in my opinion.

I think that had he stuck to his guns, the charge would likely have been dropped. There is simply not enough evidence. Contrast this case with the Allen case; in that case the investigator was a Pro.

Elliot, set up or not the guy's apparently short on smarts. He copped a plea and hoped it would go unnoticed in spite of the media's long held practice of scouring and publishing court dockets. He's more screwed than he had hoped for.

In this political climate I can only see an exoneration of the charges from the beginning or for him to come all the way out and join the other side. Personally, I say anyone of any persuasion that can't keep from needing sex with strangers in public restrooms needs to 'face the music' in an appropriate way.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Elliot, set up or not the guy's apparently short on smarts. He copped a plea and hoped it would go unnoticed in spite of the media's long held practice of scouring and publishing court dockets. He's more screwed than he had hoped for.

In this political climate I can only see an exoneration of the charges from the beginning or for him to come all the way out and join the other side. Personally, I say anyone of any persuasion that can't keep from needing sex with strangers in public restrooms needs to 'face the music' in an appropriate way.

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Given the length of time from the arrest until the news story broke, it could be a case of a Political leak by someone that was privy to the info; someone who thought it their civic duty, or just a begrudging Democrat.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Crow

Craig was ousted from the Romney Campaign . But this scandal helps Romney because he has been campaigning on the theme that Washington is hopelessly corrrupt and he is the only Republican candidate totally free of the capital city's taint .

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Isn’t that just a case of Dog-whistle politics, I mean it is simply something for the public, but the other politicos know he doesn’t really believe that.

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Given the length of time from the arrest until the news story broke, it could be a case of a Political leak by someone that was privy to the info; someone who thought it their civic duty, or just a begrudging Democrat.

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Nope, I don't think so.

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According to a Hennepin County, Minn., court docket, Craig pleaded guilty to a disorderly conduct charge on Aug. 8, with the court dismissing a charge of gross misdemeanor interference to privacy.

The court docket said Craig paid $575 in fines and fees and was put on unsupervised probation for a year. A sentence of 10 days in the county workhouse was stayed.

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It's as simple as that. Even if - or should I say especially if - the Idaho Statesman was gunning for Craig, all they needed was the court docket. The dockets are published every week in my paper, it ain't rocket science.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Nope, I don't think so.



It's as simple as that. Even if - or should I say especially if - the Idaho Statesman was gunning for Craig, all they needed was the court docket. The dockets are published every week in my paper, it ain't rocket science.

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There was a time when I checked the bookings daily, sometimes twice a day to see who was arrested, and what they were booked for. Why it would take over a month for this to be discovered, and even then the trial was not noticed by any media, doesn’t make sense to me.

But you may be right, some reporter going over old stuff on the hopes of finding a story everyone else missed may have accidentally discovered the case.

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

There was a time when I checked the bookings daily, sometimes twice a day to see who was arrested, and what they were booked for. Why it would take over a month for this to be discovered, and even then the trial was not noticed by any media, doesn’t make sense to me.

But you may be right, some reporter going over old stuff on the hopes of finding a story everyone else missed may have accidentally discovered the case.

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The docket was from Aug 8th so it wasn't exactly over a month.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

The docket was from Aug 8th so it wasn't exactly over a month.

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“Craig's arrest occurred just after noon on June 11 at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. On Aug. 8, he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor disorderly conduct in the Hennepin County District Court.”

“NEW YORK Rumors about the hidden life of Sen. Larry Craig had spread on the Web for months -- including hints that a reporter for the Idaho Statesman was asking the same questions and was about to produce a shocking story at any moment. Today, after news emerged elsewhere of Craig's June arrest in a men's room in Minneapolis, the Statesman revealed its findings…”

The arrest was June 11th, the 12th it would ordinarly be printed. Actually it was well over a month before the news was officially printed anywhere.

There is much more coming in now.

“"The most serious finding by the Statesman was the report by a professional man with close ties to Republican officials. The 40-year-old man reported having oral sex with Craig at Washington's Union Station, probably in 2004. The Statesman also spoke with a man who said Craig made a sexual advance toward him at the University of Idaho in 1967 and a man who said Craig 'cruised' him for sex in 1994 at the REI store in Boise. The Statesman also explored dozens of allegations that proved untrue, unclear or unverifiable”

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

“Craig’s arrest occurred just after noon on June 11 at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. On Aug. 8, he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor disorderly conduct in the Hennepin County District Court.”

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The arrest occurred on June 11th, not the court docket with his guilty plea. As I heard it today the police didn't rush out and announce the arrest of a senator, it seems it became public after the court proceedings.