Ask Me Help Desk - Offset closet flange, lead soil pipe

I've reviewed a bunch of questions/answers on this forum and have some ideas, but my problem is pretty specific, so I figured I'd describe it and hope for the best. (BTW, I'm totally impressed with the quality of responses on this forum!)

Re-doing a half-bath, but did not plan ahead too well, and now am at a stand still installing the new toilet. The problem stems from the fact that I need to move the toilet an inch or two to the left (to make room for the slightly larger sink that my wife INSISTS upon).

As far as I can tell, I have 4" cast iron piping, but the final length of pipe that protrudes through the floor is lead -- perhaps 8" or so. (House in NY, built in 1960). I've mangled the pipe pretty badly at this point removing the old shredded closet flange and attempting to re-attach a variety of other flanges.

I purchased a lead offset flange from a plumbing supply house, but they were only able to sell me a front/back offset, not a side-to-side offset. (I don't know if such a thing exists - they implied it does but didn't have one.) They told me that to install it, I slip the flange around the lead pipe and pound the pipe into the flange with a ball peen hammer.

So aside from the fact that it's the wrong flange, I have two problems with this. The first is that there's WAY more pipe sticking out then could possibly be pounded into this flange (the old floor had a couple inches of concrete which were removed). Since it's lead, I suppose I could easily cut a bunch more off. The second problem is that I find it hard to believe this will make a reasonable seal.

I also bought a PVC offset flange from home depot, which I would love to install. But a series of problems here as well: First, I don't know if you can attach PVC to lead. Seems unlikely. Second, and most importantly, the PVC offset flange requires about 6" of depth but access to the soil pipe is severely limited. From above, I foolishly finished the tile, and only have an inch or two of clearance around the pipe. From below, the soil pipe is behind a web of other plumbing, and is all but inaccessible.

I feel that I'm in way over my head, but would love for someone to tell me otherwise.

Thanks!

--chris j.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJ68

I've reviewed a bunch of questions/answers on this forum and have some ideas, but my problem is pretty specific, so I figured I'd describe it and hope for the best. (BTW, I'm totally impressed with the quality of responses on this forum!)

Re-doing a half-bath, but did not plan ahead too well, and now am at a stand still installing the new toilet. The problem stems from the fact that I need to move the toilet an inch or two to the left (to make room for the slightly larger sink that my wife INSISTS upon).

As far as I can tell, I have 4" cast iron piping, but the final length of pipe that protrudes through the floor is lead -- perhaps 8" or so. (House in NY, built in 1960). I've mangled the pipe pretty badly at this point removing the old shredded closet flange and attempting to re-attach a variety of other flanges.

I purchased a lead offset flange from a plumbing supply house, but they were only able to sell me a front/back offset, not a side-to-side offset. (I don't know if such a thing exists - they implied it does but didn't have one.) They told me that to install it, I slip the flange around the the lead pipe and pound the pipe into the flange with a ball peen hammer.

So aside from the fact that it's the wrong flange, I have two problems with this. The first is that there's WAY more pipe sticking out then could possibly be pounded into this flange (the old floor had a couple inches of concrete which were removed). Since it's lead, I suppose I could easily cut a bunch more off. The second problem is that I find it hard to believe this will make a reasonable seal.

I also bought a PVC offset flange from home depot, which I would love to install. But a series of problems here as well: First, I don't know if you can attach PVC to lead. Seems unlikely. Second, and most importantly, the PVC offset flange requires about 6" of depth but access to the soil pipe is severely limited. From above, I foolishly finished the tile, and only have an inch or two of clearance around the pipe. From below, the soil pipe is behind a web of other plumbing, and is all but inaccessible.

I feel that I'm in way over my head, but would love for someone to tell me otherwise.
Thanks!
--chris j.

Thanks for the kind words Chris, we have a great bunch of experts on the plumbing page.
I have several solutions to your problem. I am no fan of off set closet flanges , especially those over one inch, however, If you want a off set flange that offsets to the side you have to ask for a offset flange with a adjustable metal ring. (And I hope I can talk you out of it just as I hope you can talk your wife out of that larger lavatory)
OK! Say wifey won't give in and you have to offset the toilet. You're going to hafta get rid of that lead stub up and convert to cast iron or plastic. I recommend PVC. How you accomplish this is to follow the lead back to the cast iron and remove it. Then using a cast iron to PVC NO-Hub band or a Fernco Neoprene Coupling convert to PVC and stub up to floor level. You may then install a offset flange and set the toilet. That's the hard way but will accommodate the larger vanity that wifey wants.
Now let me tell you how we did it back in "the good old days".
First off don't cut any lead off the closet stub-up until you hear me out. I broke into plumbing before closet flanges, plastic pipe and the common things we take for granted in plumbing. Back then our closet bends were made entirely from lead. We would cut the stub-up back to about 2 or 3" off the floor level. The we would VERY CAREFULLY so we didn't tear the lead pean and flare the lead out over the hole. We used a wooden lead working paddle to do this. we then set the bowl over the hole and marked the holes for the closet bolts. We would use wood screw closet bolts that screwed into the wooden floor,( you would use plastic inserts to screw the bolts into.) We then formed a ring of plumbers putty for a seal.( you would use a wax ring with a funnel) and set and bolt down the toilet. The toilet didn't have any leaks because the 3" throat in the base directs the discharge past the floor line. Of course that would put a offset out of the question so you'd probably have to sleep on the couch for a week or so but that's the way I would go. The point I'm making is that a closet flange doesn't stop any leaks . It's only function is to secure the bowl to the floor. You have a tough situation to work out of and I've given you the only alternatives that I know of. Good luck, (and I hope that couch isn't too hard to sleep on.)
Tom

Tom, thanks so much for the (as expected!) speedy and thorough response. A couple follow-ups if you don't mind.

Option 2 (keep the lead stub-up and pean it into the flange) sounds enticing, largely because I don't have to change what's already there. According to the supply shop guy, the lead offset flange he gave me allows me to do this. (It offsets less than 2", so it might not upset you *too* much!) Question 1: what do I do if there's still too much lead pipe sticking up? I'm assuming it's OK to trim it down. Question 2: are wood paddles for peaning the lead still available?? (And from where?)

Option 1, switching to PVC, is much less appealing, because I can't even get my hand in there to work, let alone any tools. But assuming I rip out my new floor to get to it, how do I remove the lead from the cast iron pipe? Just cut it down? Because of the lack of access, it's not at all apparant to me precisely where the cast iron switches over to lead or how it's attached. Would there be a 4" stub remaining that I use the no-hub clamp on? Or am I going all the way down to the threaded part of the cast iron?

Thanks so much again!

--chris j.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJ68

Tom, thanks so much for the (as expected!) speedy and thorough response. A couple follow-ups if you don't mind.

Option 2 (keep the lead stub-up and pean it into the flange) sounds enticing, largely because I don't have to change what's already there. According to the supply shop guy, the lead offset flange he gave me allows me to do this. (It offsets less than 2", so it might not upset you *too* much!) Question 1: what do I do if there's still too much lead pipe sticking up? I'm assuming it's OK to trim it down. Question 2: are wood paddles for peaning the lead still available?? (And from where?)

Option 1, switching to PVC, is much less appealing, because I can't even get my hand in there to work, let alone any tools. But assuming I rip out my new floor to get to it, how do I remove the lead from the cast iron pipe? Just cut it down? Because of the lack of access, it's not at all apparant to me precisely where the cast iron switches over to lead or how it's attached. Would there be a 4" stub remaining that I use the no-hub clamp on? Or am I going all the way down to the threaded part of the cast iron?
Thanks so much again!
--chris j.

Hi Chris,
First off you're going to hafta "splain" what a "lead offset flange" since they're not made of lead. Here's a link to all types of closet flanges.
http://www.uapinc.net/WebPages/Plumb...setFlanges.htm
Pick out the one you're referring to and educate me.

Question 1: what do I do if there's still too much lead pipe sticking up? I'm assuming it's OK to trim it down. Question 2: are wood paddles for peaning the lead still available? (And from where?)
I don't know of any plumbers that still have, wiping cloths, paddles, tops and other lead working tools. As we die off it becomes a lost art. To make a paddle you'll need a 3/4" board 3 or so inches wide and 6 or 8 inches long. Make a handle and leave about 4" free. Then round the corners from the bottom up to the top, (no sharp edges anywhere). You now have a lead working paddle. The rounded corners lessen the chance of tearing the lead as you GENTLY tap the paddle round and round until you make a flare. You will trim the lead back to where the flare will cover at least 2" over the floor.

Would there be a 4" stub remaining that I use the no-hub clamp on? Or am I going all the way down to the threaded part of the cast iron?

I can't say for sure but chances are you'll run into a brass ferrule leaded into a cast iron hub that you'll have to remove.
Your turn! Tom

OK. That's what I get for pretending like I know what I'm talking about! It is not a lead flange (of course) rather a brass flange to put over a lead soil pipe.

It looks like this (took me a while to find this):
http://www.plumbest.com/cf3.php
(see the last item on the page, part #C49-421).

The difference between this one and the one I was able to find is that mine does NOT have the clip on the non-offset side allowing for a lateral offset. Of course, with that clip there, it's not really clear to me how I would tap the lead in underneath it, or how the wax seal would actually make a seal.

One thing I didn't understand:
"You will trim the lead back to where the flare will cover at least 2" over the floor."
The lead flare needs to stay within the confines of the flange, correct?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJ68

OK. That's what I get for pretending like I know what I'm talking about! It is not a lead flange (of course) rather a brass flange to put over a lead soil pipe.

It looks like this (took me a while to find this):
http://www.plumbest.com/cf3.php
(see the last item on the page, part #C49-421).

The difference between this one and the one I was able to find is that mine does NOT have the clip on the non-offset side allowing for a lateral offset. Of course, with that clip there, it's not really clear to me how I would tap the lead in underneath it, or how the wax seal would actually make a seal.

One thing I didn't understand:
"You will trim the lead back to where the flare will cover at least 2" over the floor."
The lead flare needs to stay within the confines of the flange, correct?

I wasn't figuring on a flange. You're going to hafta tie that flange down to the floor anyhow with screws. They make closet bolts with threads. Since all a flange does is hold down the bowl why not use screw type closet bolts a wax seal with a funnel and ,(after you mark and using plastic inserts) install the closer bolts) set the toilet directly on the lead that you have flared out. Din't get hung up on a flange. They aren't necessary to set a toilet. Regards, Tom