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Hello again, wingnuts:
So, you think it's a good idea to sell the Saudi's, whose armed forces are rife with Al Qaeda infiltrators, JDAM weapons?? Of course, these people are in a virtual state of war with our ally Israel, but I guess that doesn't matter. Plus, the 9/11 killers WERE Saudi's, but that doesn't matter either.
Next question. Do you think he really has a foreign strategy, or is he shooting from the hip??
I'll answer. You know he hasn't a clue, don't you?
excon
Excon,
Do you know what JDAMS are?
Essentially, JDAMs (Joint Direct Attack Munitions) are add-ons that make old 2000 lb "dumb bombs" into smart bombs. It's a nice way to take your old arsenal and upgrade it with seeker technology, but it is still essentially still the same old bomb. It's a very effective tool for upgrading your old crap to slightly better crap, or you good stuff to really good stuff.
America uses its JDAMs with more advanced weapons, which makes JDAM an effective tool of war. But if all Saudi Arabia is doing is taking their old crap and attaching JDAMs to them, it is not going to be a decisive change in their military technology. Certainly it isn't going to do Israel any harm... especially since Israel has better tech than anything the USA will sell to the Saudis, and is better trained in its use.
Frankly, I don't have too much of a problem with the USA selling JDAM to Saudi Arabia. I'd rather it didn't happen, but the reality is that Saudi Arabia is an ally, and you share military technology with allies. This isn't a particularly big advantage we're handing the Saudis. I don't really have a problem with it.
Besides, JDAM is controlled via GPS... and WE control the satellites that control the GPS.
If we were selling them nukes or top-level, current generation weapons, it would be a different story. But that is not the case here.
Elliot
Quote:
Incorrect. JDAMs can only be used with the MK83 1,000 pound and MK84 2,000 pound general pupose dumb bombs or the BLU 109 or BLU 110 naval variants of the MKs. These are not missiles that can be fired from the ground in Saudi Arabia... they need to be hauled to target by a bomber. Kill the bomber, kill the bombs. Israel has some very good defenses against enemy bombers, and it is protocol for them to kill the bomber before it ever gets into range of its taget. That hasn't and won't change with Saudi Arabia getting JDAMs. The sale of JDAMs to Saudi Arabia doesn't affect Israel's defensive capabilities to any appreciable degree.
Elliot
Hello again, Elliot:Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
It's that "appreciable degree" that's debatable, isn't it?
I'm certainly not as confident as you. You base your premise on the assumption that Israel CAN kill the bomber. Plus, the same people running that campaign might be the ones who said they won in Lebanon last year. Bwa, ha ha ha.
I hope you're right. However, if one gets through, I tell you that Israel has NO defense. Those targeted munitions will go exactly where the Saudi's (Al Qaeda) want them to. You've seen the video's...
excon
I don't know, the way I see it JDAM is a guidance system for bombs, so they already have to have the bombs they intend to place JDAM onto. Whether they have it or not they still have the same number of bombs that they can use if they chose to, all that changes is that if they have it they are more likely to hit what they actually aim at rather than hitting a non-military building in the event of a war.
Ex,
I don't know that it really matters much, we've been training Saudi military and supplying weapons to them for over 50 years, including F-15's (first sold by Jimmy Carter), AWACS, UH-60 Blackhawks, tanks, Bradley Fighting Vehicles, and Patriot and Hawk air defense missiles. Besides all that, Israel doesn't seem to mind this time around...
Quote:
JERUSALEM: In a break from historic Israeli opposition to U.S. arms sales to Saudi Arabia, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Sunday his country understands Washington's plan to supply state-of-the-art weapons to Riyadh as a counterweight to Iranian influence.
He said that alongside the arms deal, the U.S. is offering a sharp increase in defense aid to Israel, assuring the Jewish state it will retain a fighting edge over its neighbors.
"We understand the need of the United States to support the Arab moderate states and there is a need for a united front between the U.S. and us regarding Iran," Olmert told a weekly Cabinet meeting. The rare agreement reflects shared U.S. and Israeli concern with the potential threat of an Iran with nuclear weapons.
The proposed arms deal would include advanced weaponry and air systems that would greatly enhance the striking ability of Saudi warplanes. That set off alarms on the Israeli right. One leading hard-liner warned that Saudi Arabia, although not belligerent at present, could be taken over by extremists. The western Saudi border is just a few kilometers (miles) from southern Israel.
The proposed package comes with a serious sweetener for Israel: a 25 percent rise in U.S. military aid, from an annual $2.4 billion (€1.76 billion) at present to $3 billion (€2.2 billion) a year, guaranteed for 10 years, Olmert and U.S. officials said.
Olmert said the increase in military aid to Israel would guarantee its strategic superiority, irrespective of upgrades to Arab forces in the region. Olmert said the rise was pledged by President George W. Bush during his visit to Washington last November and was finalized in another round of White House talks in June.
"In my last meeting with him, we decided that the assistance would be $30 billion (€22 billion) for 10 years, about $3 billion a a year. This is more than a 25 percent increase ... and it is very significant for the safety of Israel," Olmert said.
The U.S. has long-standing commitments to Israel and to Egypt. At the same time, the U.S. is seeking to strengthen other moderate Mideast allies, largely as a counterweight to Iran's growing influence.
America imports almost all its ***oil*** from the middle east from Saudi Arabia.
What the Saudi Royal Family wants, it gets. They are very vulnerable at this point in time thanks in part to Bush and his War of Adventurism on Iraq, which is a hotbed of violence and chaos and alQuaeda activity.
Yeah... well, so much for the theory that Bush went to war with Iraq over the oil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Choux
And it is the very fact that Iraq is a hotbed of violence, chaos and al Qaeda activity that makes it such a good place to fight the enemy... after all, that is where the enemy is. It kind of helps to attack places where the enemy actually exists in order to beat them. Attaking them where they don't exist doesn't really do much of anything except waste billions of dollars of ordinance that doesn't hit any tagets.
These are the sort of things things they teach you in the military, Chou... to shoot at the enemy instead of away from them. I know it's a tough concept, Chou, but do try to keep up...
Elliot
Hello again, Wrongies:
Boy, when it comes to Saudi Arabia, your duo of Condi Rice and Bob Gates sure drive a tough bargain.
Visiting "the kingdom" (the grating, fairytale nickname for that oil-rich human-rights pit), the U.S. secretaries of state and defense delivered a blunt message: If you keep fomenting and financing global jihad; if you keep teaching and preaching the eradication or repression of non-Muslims; if you keep trampling human rights, women's rights, freedom of conscience and freedom of speech; and if you keep supporting Sunni insurgents in Iraq who are battling American troops, then the United States will be forced to act. Yessir, you can bet your bottom petro-dollar. You Saudis keep doing all that bad stuff and Uncle Sam is going to... deliver $20 billion of cutting edge weaponry to you, ASAP.
That'll fix them.
Or will it fix us? It's easy to get things mixed up unless you remember the latest version of the Bush Doctrine: You're either with us, or we sell you smart bombs.
excon
I think a lot of you are missing the real designated target for these munitions and the associated upgrades.
Israel isn't the target.
The potential target is Iran.
That isn't to say Saudi Arabia will provoke a war with Iran, but it bears noting that Iran considers all US Allies in the region to be it's enemies.
Hello growler:
I think you make an excellent point too. And, if it were clear that Saudi Arabia would use those weapons against Iran, then it would be good.
But, I'm not sure... I don't really think they're our friends even though Bush says so... Actually, I know they're NOT. I certainly know they aren't friends of Israel.
Actually, I think Bush has lost his way entirely over there. We actually don't know who our friends are. The Arabs are used to this kind of stuff. We're not.
And, if what you say is true, and I think it is, isn't that the natural continuation of the civil war (Shia vs Sunni) that we started? Isn't arming Saudi Arabia confirmation of that?
excon
Well, not really.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
The ensuing conflagration would involve the entire Middle East -- As well as a sizable force from Indonesia and a few Sub-Sahara (African) Muslim countries.
Of course they aren't our "friends" -- And yes, the Bush Administration is well aware of this fact, by the way.Quote:
But, I'm not sure... I don't really think they're our friends even though Bush says so... Actually, I know they're NOT. I certainly know they aren't friends of Israel.
They are a trading partner -- Nothing more, nothing less.
Of course the commodity they trade (oil) is universally recognized as a product essential to our very well being.
And being a "Trading Partner" of such an essential commodity, they are afforded a great deal more latitude in reciprocal trade agreements -- Which in this case, happens to be advanced weaponry.
And I think your hatred of the current administration clouds your judgment.Quote:
Actually, I think Bush has lost his way entirely over there. We actually don't know who our friends are. The Arabs are used to this kind of stuff. We're not.
'Friendship' with the Saudi's and other repressive regimes in the Middle East, Eastern Europe and former Soviet satellites didn't spring from whole cloth during our Mental Midget in Chiefs tenure in office -- We have been cultivating these relationships since our countries inception.
We didn't start the civil war between Shia and Sunni -- We merely gave them the battlefield to engage each other.Quote:
And, if what you say is true, and I think it is, isn't that the natural continuation of the civil war (Shia vs Sunni) that we started? Isn't arming Saudi Arabia confirmation of that?
If you don't recognize the decade long war between Iraq and Iran of the 80's as the first (20th century) salvo in the continuing war between Shia and Sunni, then you haven't been paying attention.
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