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If your religion teaches you that when you die you go to a better place; why would you use technology to extend your life to make it longer? I understand that most religions teaches you that purposely ending your life is wrong but not that refusing treatment is wrong. So wouldn't you want to get to that better place as soon as possible?
This was a dilemma we faced when having to make decisions regarding my father's end-of-life care. Once we knew that Dad was terminal we decided to go with comfort measures only. We chose not to prolong his agony indefinitely.
Though we miss him dearly, we know that he is out of pain and discomfort and is in a much better place.
Why would we try to extend lives of loved ones? Well I can tell you why I would, I'm SELFISH.
I want my loved ones here one more day, one more hour, etc... I know it sounds horrible, but I do NOT want them gone from earth, or from my sight, my touch, my phonecall, holidays, births, and well, you get the picture. Its not that I want them in pain either... I'm just glad that I personally have never been the sole person to have to decide any such things because honestly, I think I would error on the selfish side.
I'll be the first to admit I'm selfish, and its not a good thing. I've often wondered "what would I do", type scenerios in my mind... and I would hope to do the right thing, but I don't know if I could or not.
I would like to correct a misconception "when we die we go to a better place"Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
That we do not believe that we go to a better place when we die, but we believe that judging begins as soon as we die and death is only in the hands of the Creator.
I have heard/read of many people who try to kill themsleves by jumping from high places,by injecting,swallowing poisons etc yet they survive with injuries, because you can only die when your time to die arrives, not before or after.
As muslims we are forbidden from taking our own lives as we believe that even if we are the most pious, if we take our own life then all our good deeds may become invalid as this means that we tried to bring our own deaths while Life is the Almighty's gift.
About using technology to extend life, if you mean medical treatments(it is the logical thing for illnesses), Islam advises for us to treat our illnesses even though we believe that illness is sometimes an expiation of sins by the Almighty.
I am not very sure about the ruling on terminating a treatment in order to let someone die because of an illness... (will look it up and let you know)
If someone really believes in the meeting with the Almighty then my guess is that even in the final breathes of his/her life they would be trying to remember the Almighty and trying to please Him and pray for death to come soon.
I also agree with go-ask mom that all living/loving family would like to keep a loved person as long as they can.. but some may wish to terminate because of the same love.
:) :)
From a christian stand point, suicide is wrong, but nothing can bar you from heaven if you accept jesus and etc because god forgives your sins
Deliberalty shortening your life? I don't know what god thinks about that, but I do know that as soon as you die, you get no more decisions. No more chances for salvation, all your decisions and choices are made while you are alive.
My question more entails to the taking medical care. As far as I know the Bible (I'm not as knowledgeable about Islam so I don't know about that one) doesn't state that you have to treat your own illness. So if you are so sure that you are going to heaven why extend your stay here. It's like right before you take a big vacation telling your employer that you'll delay your vacation indefinitely. It just doesn't make sense to me that people that truly believe that they are going to heaven would want to delay it.
Well, in my mind, we're supposed to live a full life because this life decides what happens in the afterlife.
Wow, you would want to watch your loved ones suffer in pain and indignity just because you are selfish!! I am so sorry to disagree with you and to say that I am glad I am not part of your family.Quote:
Originally Posted by go-ask-mom
I watched my father suffer and try so hard to breathe. I watched him as he was in pain and scared. I saw him nod his head and squeeze my hand when I asked if he was ready to go.
Hell yea it hurt, and I was not ready by any means to say goodbye, heck he just turned 72 the week before, he was still young. But I respected HIS wishes, not mine. I could never have been cruel enough to make him live a day longer than he wanted in as much excruciating pain as he was in.
Seeing the fear on his face every time he had to take a breath was enough to let me know that I could not hook him up to a ventilator and dialysis just to keep him alive for my own selfish reasons knowing that he would never get out of that bed again. Knowing that he could endure another 10 or more painful years, but never get out of the bed, never breathe or urinate on his own, never speak again.
Tell me, who would want that kind of life?
When making my decisions regarding my father I had to think how I would want to be respected if it were me in that bed getting Roxinol once an hour just to keep the pain only slightly at bay.
Loving a person is one of the most selfLESS acts of kindness. To delay their passing only for the sake of our own selfishness In my opinion is cruel and unusual punishment.
I miss and love you Dad!! You were and are my hero. I am so happy to know you are no longer suffering.
http://www.seniors2.com/memorium/joker_1984.jpg
May 25, 1935 - June 6, 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_9
*Oh BOISE*
My goodness! I wasn't responding to your personal situation or the actions you took... I was simply answering the posters question based on my own experience/thoughts as to why anyone would prolong a loved ones death! Call it cruel and unusual punishment or what have you... I just call it as I personally see it, and that's due to my own SELFISH reasons of wanting them here! Here with me in the world! I mean is there honestly any OTHER reason for prolonging the inevitable when we have a choice not to?
The fact that some people choose to hold on to those forever, however long they can, using every medical intervention known to man, in hope against hope that some new advanced medical breakthrough ~or~ miracle will come along and breathe life back into their loved one... is not for ME to JUDGE!
Then there are those who are perfectly acceptable with death and the whole dying process, so much so that they have their "I"s dotted, "T"s crossed, directives signed, pre-paid burials planned and are ready to meet their maker when the time comes. No interventions wanted, its between them and G_d.
However, you seem to be quite comfortable with JUDGING all those that would choose a path differently than you as "cruel and unusual" but I... in MY own opinion, call it being selfish. What else would you call it? Do you really think anyone WANTS to see their loved ones suffer or hooked up to multiple machines.. Noooooo. For whatever reasons, some are not as ready/prepared to let go, no matter the cost... as I said above, we want them here one more hour, one more day, just one more, and that is just selfish. I'll admit it.
Some people have the "advance notice" of time (Hospice, for example) to allow for a more "sinking in of reality" as to what is to come. To prepare for a loss, so to speak. While others sometimes, have only the shock of an accident and 48 hours to decide a course of the unknown possibilities with unknown answers or to just let whatever happens, happen- with no intervention. Whatever the course chosen, it's certainly not for me to judge or call cruel, inhumane, etc... Although with the politics of today, I see so many like you that DO seem to want THEIR choice inflicted on those they know nothing about... pssh.
I guess I am rambling on, as this post just kind of jolted me back to a very few months ago when I was dealing with my own mothers death... she had COPD, Emphasema, but in the past had kicked Breast Cancers @ss & Bladder Cancers @ss... she was one strong lady! She was living independently, 'dependently' with the help of oxygen, nebulizers, and a host of medicines... BUT, one accident sent her spiraling downhill without all her ducks in a row... (No Advanced Directives or Medical POA on file)
However, I knew EXACTLY what HER wishes would be, so when they came to me to discuss signing a DNR(Do Not Recessitate) it was the hardest thing in my life to ever have to do. Because with a bruised heart, multiple broken ribs on the masectomy side, on a small frail woman, CPR could have punctured her ribs through her heart or lungs... and if that happened, with her host of other problems, what exactly would I be bringing her back too? Plus as I said, I knew SHE would not have wanted it done... and even though I signed it, I told my husband that if I were standing there and she went into some type of cardiac failure... I'm not sure I could have just stood idley by and watched... I'm almost positive I would have tried cpr and begged for help... and I suppose that's why I say, for selfish reasons, as it would not have been to her benefit.
Anyway, I never had to find out what I would or would not have done as we brought her home from the hospital with hospice, and she passed shortly after one night, seemingly peaceful in her sleep... something else she had always said that's the way SHE wanted to go... in her own home at sleep one night.
All I know is with all the emotional rollercoaster one can be on at times like this, I would never even begin to judge anyone's reasons... but I'll admit to mine. Then again, is it really so selfish to keep someone you love alive? I think I'm in a neverending circle here w/my thoughts!
</end thread drift- rambling> lol! :D
I never felt that you were responding to my personal situation. I apologize if you took it that way, but your post screamed of selfishness, you said it yourself.
I am sorry for the loss of your mother. You see, my father had all of those illnesses, less the breast cancer, I am the one who had that LOL.
We all see these situations so differently. My father was sick and in the hospital for 3 months before passing. He was incoherent only the last week before kidney failure and respiratory failure took him.
What is harder? Losing a loved on after a lengthy illness or a quick accident? That is a personal feeling. Three months of immobility and multiple machines made it easier for us as we had time to prepare. No he didn't have his I's dotted or his T's crossed, we had to do that as he lay in bed dying.
I know in my own situation, dealing with my own immortality ten short years ago, I knew I would not want any heroic measures taken. Although I had a daughter who was only 4 when I was diagnosed with cancer, I would not want her growing up and visiting a nursing home watching me waste away before her eyes. That would be a terrible way for a child to grow up.
Chalk it up to different personalities. Where you admit to being selfish, I on the other hand, am totally and completely selfless. I don't want to hang on hoping for a miracle cure as that can be emotionally draining to the family that so desperately needs to get on with some semblance of a normal healthy life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
That is a complicated issue. There are miracles of medicine that lend to a better quality of life. Then there are the extended life prolonging devices that just prolong the end. I used to work as a respiratory therapist and so often people would be hooked up to ventilators for extended periods. In a coma, unresponsive, absolutely the machine doing everything for that person. The doctors used to say that one can realistically expect a person to only survive like that and regain total health within a month, sometimes less, depending on circumstances. When the brain waves come back with negative results and the kidney functions are fading fast, the body starts to shut down. I see it as being very selfish to want to keep a loved one in that situation. I see it as loving to allow that person to leave the world in peace and dignity, in saying, "no more."
You are not giving up on the life but letting go of the personal desire to keep that person close to you. Think of it in terms of how you want your own end of life. When there can be no more done, no more heroics, then do you want your family to mourn your illness or celebrate the life they shared with you?
That being said, I also do not mean that you give up on every illness. Not every illness is life threatening. It is not like you lay down and wait for the shadow of death to come over you. I do believe the Lord expects you to take the best care of yourself that you can and utilize physicians and medcine. I think of my youngest son - if not for his team of specialists and medicine - he would not be here. In not treating his illnesses he would be missing out on his greatest joys.
Wantinhg to echo what Janine said so beautifully. It is out of love that we make those tough decisions. Thank you, J, for sharing and your Dad's picture. You have an angel on your shoulder! Hugssssssss.
Weeeell... regardless of what medical decisions people choose to make for their loved ones, I'm quite sure its based out of LOVE for that person... again, who are we to judge.
I've not had to actually choose the direct medical path of a loved one... but I'd probably error on the side of selfish LOVE! But, then again... who knows!
This is the best place to be. The other side is boring. Well, maybe not boring but there is so much more diversity here. It's just more fun here. I mean, you can't even wrestle crocodiles over there. There is no such thing as food or eating over there so when you jump on a croc, he just looks at you as if you are crazy. That's why I want to stay here.
Lol, maybe we are crazy people in padded cells, who were sent to the institute for believing in this fantasy world in which this strange thing called "death" exists.
Haha! I couldn'timagine not being able to ruffle a few feathers and start some diversity myself... it's half the fun of being alive!:D The other half is love and the people who care about you... but i <3 being able to start stuff up!:D
I believe that we choose to extend life because death is the unknown. Most of us simply hope that there is another side. So just in case there isn't... we want to stay alive in this life as long as possible. ;)
The buddhist point of view on this is that we are in Samsara (a state of living on earth but enduring the pain and suffering of being human. Kind of like being on a roundabout) here on earth, we are really not in the best "place" per se.
We are here to learn how to be better people-as learning and making a difference to other humans, animals and the earth with all of its wonders. HOWEVER, this can only be done by living, breathing humans. This is why we prefer to extend life. To escape this realm (Samsara)and as one of the other posters stated to be "worthy" of a better existence either living or as a "spirit" In "heaven" or "the other side" or whatever.
Does this help?-it's actually very difficult to explain in simplistic terms.
Post is two years old
I might as well add that as far as extending a terminally ill persons life that is man's doing.
Why if they are in pain and suffering and poor quality of life do we want them to live that extra month?
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