: there was a time that Arabic (more than Latin) was the language of science and philosophy. And then, for some reason, the Muslim community seemed to take a huge step backward.

I began to explore the reasons when I ran across an article that appears to answer the question.

“From 800 AD to 1500, Arabic was the language of science, as English is today. Muslims occupied Spain, and Europeans flocked to Toledo and other Spanish cities, or traveled great distances to Baghdad or Damascus, to translate Islamic science and medical books into Latin.

“…the Ottomans, who took over much of the Islamic world in the early 1500s, used their resources to make war, not science.


Was it the Religion of Islam? No…

”… The teachings of the Holy Prophet of Islam emphasize the acquiring of knowledge as bounden duties of each Muslim from the cradle to the grave, and that the quest for knowledge and science is obligatory upon every Muslim man and woman," she said. "One eighth -- that is, 750 verses -- of the Koran exhort believers to study, to reflect, and to make the best use of reason in their search for the ultimate truth.
"The Koran enjoins the believer and the unbeliever alike to examine nature for signs of the creator's handiwork, evidence of his existence, and his goodness,"

“In the 1700s, a puritanical form of Islam took root in Saudi Arabia, with a doctrine that rejected knowledge acquired after the first 300 years of Islam's existence.”

This perverted sect contends all knowledge can be found in the Koran… Wahhabism

Saudi Arabia, in order to control its population made this corrupt version of Islam the States Religion and banned any other religion and so another profane marriage between Religion and Government was established… Wahhabism
The Saudi-Wahhabi covenent Saudi Arabia - Terrorism

Do you understand why America supports the Saudi's and why it was not targeted instead of Iraq.

Why…we are being sold out, that is why.

Note also, like the Ottomans we are spending more and more on war…28% of the 2006 budget and 41% of your taxes go to war.

U.S. Arms Clients Profiles--SAUDI ARABIA
“Saudi Arabia is America's top customer. Since 1990, the U.S. government, through the Pentagon's arms export program, has arranged for the delivery of more than $39.6 billion in foreign military sales to Saudi Arabia, and an additional $394 million worth of arms were delivered to the Saudi regime through the State Department's direct commercial sales program during that same period.”
iViews.com - Islam - Once at forefront of science

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

: Why…we are being sold out, that is why.

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That may very well be true. But by whom are we being sold out? Is it by the Bush administration? I doubt it. Our relationship with the House of Saud predates the Bush presidency. By several deades, if I am not mistaken.

Furthermore, considering that Saudi Arabia is one of the three most oil-rich countries in the world, and considering that we need oil, it would be nearly impossible at this time for us to sever our relationship with Saudi Arabia. That is one of the reasons that I am so strongly in favor of energy independence, including development of cost-efficient, economicly feasible alternative fuels like nuclear energy and digging for oil in Alaska's wildlife reserves. I'm not the least bit worried about global warming. I'm worried about a strategic weakness caused by our reliance on Arab, Russian and Venezuelan oil.

But you are correct... someone somewhere along the line sold us out.

But... there is a huge difference between Saudi Arabia and Iraq. I have done a quick comparison of the State Department's Human Rights reports for Saudi Arabia in 2006 vs. Iraq in 2001 (under Saddam's regime, and before we were even talking aout invasion of Iraq). While Saudi Arabia is hardly pure and good, they are infinitely better than Iraq under Saddam.

For instance:

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SAUDI ARBIA

Section 1 Respect for the Integrity of the Person, Including Freedom From:

a. Arbitrary or Unlawful Deprivation of Life

There were no reports that the government or its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings; however, the government executed persons for criminal offenses after closed trials, making it impossible to assess whether legal protections were applied (see section 1.e.). The country's highest court, the Supreme Judicial Council, is responsible for reviewing cases involving sentences of stoning, amputation, or death, and sentences can only be enforced pursuant to a royal decree issued by the king.

b. Disappearance

There were no reports of politically motivated disappearances.

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... compared to

Quote:

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IRAQ

Section 1 Respect for the Integrity of the Person, Including Freedom From:

a. Arbitrary or Unlawful Deprivation of Life

The Government committed numerous political and other extrajudicial killings. The Government has a long record of executing perceived or alleged opponents. In a report released by the U.N. Secretary General on September 13, the U.N. Special Rapporteur criticized the Government for the "sheer number of executions" taking place in the country, the number of "extrajudicial executions on political grounds," and "the absence of a due process of the law." The list of offenses requiring a mandatory death penalty has grown substantially in the past few years and now includes anything that could be characterized as "sabotaging the national economy," including forgery, as well as smuggling cars, spare parts, material, heavy equipment, and machinery. The Special Rapporteur has noted that membership in certain political parties is punishable by death, that there is a pervasive fear of death for any act or expression of dissent, and that there are recurrent reports of the use of the death penalty for such offenses as "insulting" the President or the Ba'th Party. "

{snip}

In September the Government executed 28 political prisoners in Abu Ghurayb prison as a part of its "prison cleansing" campaign. During 2000 the Special Rapporteur received reports referring to a "prison cleansing" execution campaign taking place in Abu Ghurayb, Radwaniyah, and other prisons. Opposition groups, including the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), the Iraqi Communist Party (ICP), the Iraqi National Congress (INC), and others with a network inside the country, provided detailed accounts of summary executions, including the names of hundreds of persons killed. A former officer from the Mukhabarat (Intelligence Service) reported that he participated in a 1998 mass murder at Abu Ghurayb prison following a Revolutionary Command Council directive to "clean out" the country's prisons.

{snip}

Government agents targeted for killing family members of defectors (see Section 1.f.). For example, in May the Government reportedly tortured to death the mother of three Iraqi defectors for her children's opposition activities.

{snip}

Political killings and terrorist actions continued in the Kurd-controlled north of the country. For example, assailants assassinated the governor of Arbil, Fransu Hariri. PUK and KDP investigators blamed Islamic groups for the killing. In June the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq reported that its members killed Raed Khidir, a Ba'th Party official in southern Iraq. In 2000 unknown persons killed the leader of the Democratic Nationalist Union of Kurdistan, Sirbit Mahmud. In July 2000, unknown assailants killed parliamentary deputy Osman Hassan.

{snip}

b. Disappearance

There continued to be widespread reports of widespread disappearances. Hundreds still were missing in the aftermath of the brief Iraqi military occupation of Erbil in August 1996. Many of these persons may have been killed surreptitiously late in 1997 and throughout 1998, in the reported "prison-cleansing" campaign (see Section 1.a.). Sources inside the country reported the existence of special prison wards that hold individuals whose whereabouts, status, and fate was not disclosed (see Section 1.c.). The missing were primarily from the Kurd minority but include members of the Assyrian, Turkmen, and Yazidi community. In August AI reported that the Government has the world's worst record for numbers of persons who have disappeared and remain unaccounted for.

{snip}

The Government continued to ignore the more than 16,000 cases conveyed to it in 1994 and 1995 by the U.N. as well as requests from the Governments of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia to account for the whereabouts of those who had disappeared during Iraq's 1990-91 occupation of Kuwait, and from Iran regarding the whereabouts of prisoners of war that Iraq captured in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war. The majority of the 16,496 cases known to the Special Rapporteur are persons of Kurdish origin who disappeared during the 1988 Anfal Campaign.

{snip}

The Special Rapporteur and several human rights groups continued to request that the Government provide information about the 1991 arrest of the late Grand Ayatollah Abdul Qasim Al-Khoei and 108 of his associates. The Ayatollah died while under house arrest in Al-Najaf. Other individuals who were arrested with him have not been accounted for, and the Government refuses to respond to queries regarding their status.

{snip}

In addition to the tens of thousands of reported disappearances, human rights groups reported during the year that the Government continued to hold thousands of other citizens in incommunicado detention (see Sections 1.c. 1.d. and 1.e.).

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I'm not going to argue that the Saudis are good guys. They're not. There are major violations of human rights that need to be addressed, including use of torture in violation of their own laws, imprisonment for long without just cause based on infractions of religion rather than law, etc. But they are infinitely better than the Saddam regime was. Saddam was a particularly sick puppy in his violations of human rights.

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Originally Posted by dark_crow

Note also, like the Ottomans we are spending more and more on war…28% of the 2006 budget and 41% of your taxes go to war.

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Do they go to war, to do they go to maintaining a military. There is a difference.

Also, I have just reviewed the 2008 Federal budget's historical tables. They show that National Security spending (which includes military spending) is only 20.5% of the entire budget in 2007 (estimated) and was 19.7% of the budget in 2006 (actual). Furthermore, national security spending was 21.7% of government receipts in 2006 (actual) and 34.2% of total taxes collected in 2006. So I question your numbers. They don't jive with what the official budget statements of the Office of Budget Management. What is the source for your figures?

BTW, it should be noted that National security spending was actually only 4% of GDP in 2006 and is estimated at 4.2% in 2007. As a point of comparison, human resource-related spending (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, veterans benefits, education, etc.) made up 12.8% of GDP. So I don't see our military spending as being particularly high.

You can find the national budget here. I used the historical tables (.xls versions) as my sources.

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U.S. Arms Clients Profiles--SAUDI ARABIA
“Saudi Arabia is America’s top customer. Since 1990, the U.S. government, through the Pentagon’s arms export program, has arranged for the delivery of more than $39.6 billion in foreign military sales to Saudi Arabia, and an additional $394 million worth of arms were delivered to the Saudi regime through the State Department’s direct commercial sales program during that same period.”
iViews.com - Islam - Once at forefront of science

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Well, that would certainly seem to undermine the argument made by some anti-Israel/anti-Zionist groups that Israel is the largest receipient of US arms and assistance in the world.

I don't have a problem with selling arms to Saudi Arabia. In fact, I think we SHOULD sell them our last-generation stuff in order to recoup some of the cost and help balance the national security budget. Since we (and Israel) are the only ones with the infrastructure to repair and maintain the stuff, it makes Saudi Arabia as reliant on us for maintenance of their military equipment as we are on their oil. It serves to keep them honest. I don't know if that was part of the strategic thinking regarding selling arms to Saudi Arabia (though it should have been), but that is the effect that it has. And as long as our gear is BETTER than what we are selling them, and as long as we have more of it than they do, I see no problem with it.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Furthermore, considering that Saudi Arabia is one of the three most oil-rich countries in the world, and considering that we need oil, it would be nearly impossible at this time for us to sever our relationship with Saudi Arabia.

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Pragmatist vs. idealist seems to approachably describe our differences; although they do overlap and meet in agreement much of the time.

One of my favorite political mentors, Barry Goldwater, once said in, Conscience of a Conservative: "we entrust the conduct of our affairs to men who understand that their first duty as public officials is to divest themselves of the power they have been given."