This story has been on the news all morning - Teacher Claims Catholic School Fired Her Over IVF - Indiana News Story - WRTV Indianapolis

I am hearing that a teacher in a Roman Catholic school was fired because she and her husband are attempting to get pregnant with a second child using IVF, which is against the teaching of the Catholic Church. This AM a Priest was quoted as saying (basically) that this is an "unforgivable" sin.

I know Catholics who have had abortions, gone to confession, been forgiven - and in one case had a second abortion, repeated the process.

Maybe that's another subject BUT why is IVF forbidden - I honestly don't understand.

And, yes, I was raised Roman Catholic, the majority of my family members are practicing Catholics. I'm not judging. I just don't understand.

As as masturbation is a sin, it is not a natural sex act and requires doctors to cause the egg fertilsation to take place. While of course not a unforgivable sin by any means, and not sure if it falls under their list of mortal sins or not,

Most likely more political posturing from both sides as the freedom of religion and the rights of the church to enforce its beliefs upon those that belong to the church.

I think a key issue for the church is that IVH usually involves harvesting and artificially insemenating more than one egg, and consequently after one or two embryos are implanted in the mother the remainder are destroyed. If you believe that human life begins at conception then this is a form of abortion (some would say "murder").

Sounds like a good case for the supreme court to clarify whether a parochial school teacher who does not teach religion is actually a "minister," and thus whether the church is exempt from this type of discrimination lawsuits. Personally - I hope she prevails.

Does the Catholic Church believe that using ova or sperm from someone other than the married couple constitutes adultery?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Does the Catholic Church believe that using ova or sperm from someone other than the married couple constitutes adultery?

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Hmm - I truly don't know. Never thought of that angle.

What ever happened to the good old fashion sins.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

what ever happened to the good old fashion sins.

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People are nothing if not creative.

The thing everybody is getting so worked up about is whether they have a RIGHT to control her choices like this... and according to the contract she signed, they do.

To attend the Christian college I went to I had to abide by a lifestyle contract. Do I personally agree that it is wrong to take a drink of alcohol, no I do not. But I signed something saying I would follow that rule... as did she. In this case, I do not agree with the Catholic view point as it being sin... however, if you don't agree with something... don't sign it.

Priests cannot make infallible statements. They can give their opinions and state their beliefs. They are instruments of the Church and are expected to teach what the Church believes and has declared infallibly.

Simply stated, if it is outside the natural act of sex, such as IVF, masturbation, or intentionally preventing ones's semen from entering the vagina, then it is considered a sinful act, necessitating forgiveness for said act.

There is nothing in the bible that says IVF is a sin. Absolutely NOTHING. If someone can find it in scripture please enlighten me. I understand IVF is something we can do now and may not have been available lets say 5000 years ago. BUT... it isn't a sin.

When in doubt on sin I refer to what the Apostle Paul says to the church today. Whatever is not of FAITH is sin.

One last thing... where does it say masturbation is a sin? Where? Because.. I don't find it in my bible. The act isn't a sin. Perhaps what is going on in one's mind is but I don't see anywhere that it is wrong. AND there are times that collecting sperm is needed for medical reasons. The Lord made our bodies, he understands our bodies and he gave many doctors the wisdom to help people who cannot have a baby because their bodies do not work properly. It is a miracle... not a sin.

In my humble opinion, this is one of those cases that Jesus referred to when he stated people gag on a gnat and swallow a camel. It would be nice if we learned how to understand the Bible and stop ADDING things that just ain't in there. Nuff said.

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Originally Posted by mysticman72

Simply stated, if it is outside the natural act of sex, such as IVF, masturbation, or intentionally preventing ones's semen from entering the vagina, then it is considered a sinful act, necessitating forgiveness for said act.

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It may be considered a sinful act by certain church hierarchies, but not by the Bible and not by God. Let's be clear about this: those things are man's homemade rules, not anything that comes from God.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

It may be considered a sinful act by certain church hierarchies, but not by the Bible and not by God. Let's be clear about this: those things are man's homemade rules, not anything that comes from God.

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I'm just conveying the Roman Church's stance on the issues, which was the point of the thread. Though I am not Catholic, I completely agree with their stance on IVF among other things. If it is outside of "nature", which is IVF, then I won't do it. If my wife and I could not have children of our own, instead of having that procedure, we would adopt one of the millions of kids already living that need good homes. And, we would not rely on a scientist or doctor to intervene in such a sacred thing.

Peace to you...

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Originally Posted by classyT

There is nothing in the bible that says IVF is a sin. Absolutely NOTHING. If someone can find it in scripture please enlighten me. I understand IVF is something we can do now and may not have been available lets say 5000 years ago. BUT... it isn't a sin.

When in doubt on sin I refer to what the Apostle Paul says to the church today. Whatever is not of FAITH is sin.

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It is true that IVF is not explicitly listed as a sin, but like so many things, it is implied through an understanding of the whole Scripture. It doesn't say I should not smoke either, but we are to treat our bodies as a holy temple. Do you think that God would have a scientist intervene in such sacred matters as this? Is it not an indication of mankind's insatiable appetite to have what he wants, no matter what God wants?

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One last thing... where does it say masturbation is a sin? Where? Because.. I don't find it in my bible. The act isn't a sin. Perhaps what is going on in one's mind is but I don't see anywhere that it is wrong. AND there are times that collecting sperm is needed for medical reasons. The Lord made our bodies, he understands our bodies and he gave many doctors the wisdom to help people who cannot have a baby because their bodies do not work properly. It is a miracle... not a sin.

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Well, you hit the nail on the head, didn't you? "The Lord made our bodies" Yes, so if your body doesn't "work properly" as you put it, then what makes you think one is supposed to take the bull by the horns and see some doctor who may or not be a believer in God Almighty and ask them to make a baby for you? It's not a miracle. It's going outside of the natural order of things to have what you want. Go out and find a needy child to adopt.

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In my humble opinion, this is one of those cases that Jesus referred to when he stated people gag on a gnat and swallow a camel. It would be nice if we learned how to understand the Bible and stop ADDING things that just ain't in there. Nuff said.

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Well, I'm sorry, but the process of creating sacred life is kind of a big deal I think. Don't even get me started on the act of destroying sacred life. That's in the Bible too, but it is sadly ignored.

Peace...

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Originally Posted by mysticman72

Do you think that God would have a scientist intervene in such sacred matters as this?

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God said "Be fruitful and multiply" after giving man a brain to use to invent IVF. Not being able to have a child is not God's doing.

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Yes, so if your body doesn't "work properly" as you put it, then what makes you think one is supposed to take the bull by the horns and see some doctor

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So we will burn all those wooden canes and recycle the metal canes and the wheelchairs and close down the operating rooms in hospitals?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

God said "Be fruitful and multiply" after giving man a brain to use to invent IVF. Not being able to have a child is not God's doing.

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Mankind has invented lots of things with that brain of his. I can think of great achievements that benefit mankind and others that destroy it or misuse it. I'm sorry, but I fail to see the logic in your argument.

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So we will burn all those wooden canes and recycle the metal canes and the wheelchairs and close down the operating rooms in hospitals?

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There is a difference in necessity and non-necessity. The problem is that most of us can't tell the difference. One doesn't have to have a child. One does have to some things to help them with their infirmities. Not being able to have a child isn't an infirmity nor a necessity.

Peace...

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Originally Posted by mysticman72

Mankind has invented lots of things with that brain of his. I can think of great achievements that benefit mankind and others that destroy it or misuse it. I'm sorry, but I fail to see the logic in your argument.

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Infertility is not in God's plan.

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There is a difference in necessity and non-necessity. The problem is that most of us can't tell the difference. One doesn't have to have a child. One does have to some things to help them with their infirmities. Not being able to have a child isn't an infirmity nor a necessity.

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Those people don't have to walk or get around. Not being able to produce a child is an infirmity.

Do you have a child?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Infertility is not in God's plan.

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For everyone? You don't believe that God prevents some people from having children? I do.

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Those people don't have to walk or get around. Not being able to produce a child is an infirmity.

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True, they don't have to. But, using a cane to help one walk doesn't create or destroy a human being. A bit different degree, don't you think? I can think of not having a child as a blessing to some people - a blessing from God that urges people to adopt.

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Do you have a child?

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Three and we have adopted many others that needed good homes.

Just to be clear, I love children. God loves children. I just believe that there's a right way and a wrong way to bring a child into this world and that God demands we treat sacred life with the upmost respect, a respect I believe is lacking in a laboratory technician's manipulation of sperm and embryo. By the way, there's a good site that really outlines why I believe the way I do. It's called Catholic culture. I'm off to watch movies. Good night and God bless.

Peace...

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Originally Posted by mysticman72

For everyone? You don't believe that God prevents some people from having children? I do.

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The Fall plunged mankind and Nature (including childbearing) into everything God did not want.

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Three

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Ah, now I understand.

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we have adopted many others that needed good homes

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"Many others"?