Ask Me Help Desk - S Trap or Not?

S Trap or Not?

Hey guys!
Over on another site I have home inspectors telling me that this isn't a "S" trap vented by a AAV. Your comments? Regards, Tom

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Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?
I can't believe I'm reading a zillion posts telling me that this,(see image) isn't a "S" trap. Of course it is. Take away the AAV and whadda you got?
That's right sports fans! If it walks like a "S" trap wearing a funny looking hat's called a AAV and talks like a "S" trap, then dang it! That sucker must be a "S" trap.
On an other note, I read where some inspectors areafraid to grab a toilet bowl and check it for a ,loose or a b owl that rocks.
Repair plumbers would get a chuckle out of that. Regards to all, Tom aka Speedball1

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M. Slusar
Member Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Phx, AZ
Posts: 5

Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?
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Originally Posted by Thomas Barker

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If it walks like a "S" trap wearing a funny looking hat's called a AAV and talks like a "S" trap, then dang it! That sucker must be a "S" trap.

OK - I really hope that this was an attempt at humor...
Otherwise...

Is that verticle pipe going up to the roof or vent stack? Where is the AAV they are talking about?

Bob, The AAV's installed on the eighth bend you're questioning.
This is the original post,

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Bruce Breedlove
Member Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 806

Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?
The building is on a crawlspace. The sink and associated plumbing were installed by a non-professional. The waste pipe is not located in the wall but instead is located in the vanity. The waste piping does not have a vent pipe and is instead vented by an air admittance device.

With the shorter distance from the sink tailpiece to the waste pipe would you call this an 'S' trap?

I have a entire site of home inspectors thinking I'm nuts, Cheers Tom

This upper pipe appears to be 45 bend going into the wall an up(?). I don't know how they figured AAV ? If there was AAV then there would have to be 1 1/2" Female Adaptor to accept AAV.

In may area, the Orange Mark Dimension ("dirt arm") in photo #2 has to be 6" long otherwise it is called S-trap.

Milo, As I read it the AAV was installed on a 45 degree angle. To read the entire debate click on; Would You Call This An 'S' Trap? - InspectionNews - Home Inspection
Be prepared to sift through a bunch of garbage. These inspectors are pretty long winded. Feel free to post on their site.

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In may area, the Orange Mark Dimension ("dirt arm") in photo #2 has to be 6" long otherwise it is called S-trap.

And if the "dirt arm" was 5' long and then went into a 90 headed down with no vent what would you call it then?
Thanks for jumping in. Tom

This looks proper to me -- In fact it is a common installation during DWV repipes when dealing with situations where cutting open drywall isn't an option.

I'm not altogether clear why they offset the AAV with the 45's, but it would still be acceptable in most parts of the country so long as the AAV is at least 6" above the crown of the trap.

BTW, offsetting a vent with 2 45's below the flood rim of a fixture has been a bone of contention between Plumbers and Inspectors for decades -- Some Inspectors refuse to admit that the offset is still vertical -- While to anyone with a brain in their head (Plumbers and Inspectors who were actually Plumbers at one time) the answer is obvious.

Steve, The question was, is this a "S": trap with a AAV for a vent or not? And if you say it isn't then put another name to it. Regards, Tom

Hi all...

If AAVS are legal, then except for vent being closer than 2x pipe diameter to the crown weir of the trap, this is clearly a PTRAP with a vent..?

I know that in Massachusetts it is illegal for the following reasons:

1) The compression or TRAP adapter is not allowed on the horizontal like it is in the picture above. In my area, we need to have a cemented joint here and can only have a moveable joint in the trap... such as a union ptrap. That means no more tubular traps here.

2) The AAV isn't allowed here without special permission.

3) The vent is closer than 2X the diameter of the pipe from the crown weir.

In my area, this would not be an strap... would just be completely illegal... ;)

My two cents!

MARK

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Steve, The question was, is this a "S": trap with a AAV for a vent or not? And if you say it isn't then put another name to it. Regards, Tom

No, I wouldn't call it an S-Trap.

I'd call it a standard installation of a P-trap with an AAV.

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Hi all...

If AAVS are legal, then except for vent being closer than 2x pipe diameter to the crown weir of the trap, this is clearly a PTRAP with a vent..???

I know that in Massachusetts it is illegal for the following reasons:

1) The compression or TRAP adapter is not allowed on the horizontal like it is in the picture above. In my area, we need to have a cemented joint here and can only have a moveable joint in the trap...such as a union ptrap. That means no more tubular traps here.

2) The AAV isn't allowed here without special permission.

3) The vent is closer than 2X the diameter of the pipe from the crown weir.

In my area, this would not be an strap...would just be completely illegal...;)

My two cents!!

MARK

No tubular traps at all?

You're kidding, right?

What do you do when you're dealing with a high end wall hung sink that cost the homeowner in excess of $3000.00?

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I knew that would get you excited Steve... ;) YUP! No tubular traps here anymore... not sure how long now, but for awhile. Mind you, they sell them at every home depot and it's causing issues for people that go and buy the fancy bottle traps (quite expensive) or the tubular traps and then find out they need to have it inspected and the inspector makes them rip it out (or the plumber, cause the homeowner can't pull permits here).

Here, we install those PVC x chrome traps... see image. If you are a licensed plumber and installing finish that requires chrome.. this is only legal answer. Otherwise, for normal vanity base sinks we are required to use the schedule 40 PVC and PTRAP... union in trap OK.

MARK

Gee guys! I always thought that"P" traps went into the wall while "S" traps went into the floor. Remove the AAV and whadda you got? Just asking, Tom

Hmmm... never looked at it that way, Tom.

If it goes into a sanitary tee fitting and there is any vent above it... it is a PTRAP to me.

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

I knew that would get you excited Steve...;) YUP!! No tubular traps here anymore...not sure how long now, but for awhile. Mind you, they sell them at every home depot and it's causing issues for people that go and buy the fancy bottle traps (quite expensive) or the tubular traps and then find out they need to have it inspected and the inspector makes them rip it out (or the plumber, cause the homeowner can't pull permits here).

Here, we install those PVC x chrome traps...see image. If you are a licensed plumber and installing finish that requires chrome..this is only legal answer. Otherwise, for normal vanity base sinks we are required to use the schedule 40 PVC and PTRAP...union in trap OK.

MARK

Oy vey -- And here I am dreading having to tell a homeowner that I am going to have to install two ugly counter mounted air gaps on her island and her peninsula in order to get the job signed off.

Any idea why they banned 'em?

Also -- Somebody needs to tell the Silva Brothers about this, they've been installing tubular traps for at least the last two seasons of 'This old House'.

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If it goes into a sanitary tee fitting and there is any vent above it... it is a PTRAP to me.

And it it goes into a sanitary tee and then to the floor it's a "S" trap vented with a AAV to me. As I've asked, Remove the AAV and whadda you got? Cheers Tom

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Gee guys! I always thought that"P" traps went into the wall while "S" traps went into the floor. Remove the AAV and whadda ya got?? Just askin, Tom

If the Sanitary-Tee were replaced with a 90 and the AAV eliminated, then it would definitely be an S-Trap.

I think you might be a little too hung up on this being outside the wall, Tom.

Imagine it plumbed the same way but scooted back a few inches inside the wall with the AAV either 90'd out of the wall or installed inside of a wall box.

Also -- The true definition of a S-Trap would be a trap that returns vertically without a vent or the vent installed horizontally below the crown or weir of the trap.

Remove the vent and is definitely an STRAP.

Actually Steve, not sure when they banned them, but for at least 6 years that I know of 'cause an inspector busted me using one and explained that they had found that the neoprene style washers were drying out on the top and have been shown to leak... so they banned installation of them.

I'll try to find the specific code for you... just got the most updated code book yesterday!

And it is the Tretheway brothers (Rich and Bob) on this old house... and yeah, I think they can do anything they want in Boston area... on every board that makes every code in the state!

MARK

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

And it is the Tretheway brothers (Rich and Bob) on this old house....and yeah, I think they can do anything they want in Boston area...on every board that makes every code in the state!!

MARK

That's right.

So between court appearances and code writing symposiums, when do these guys find the time to actually Plumb?

They haven't plumbed in decades... ;) But I'll tell you... I think they may even know more about codes than you do... :)

Good day all...

MARK