Does anyone know, or have a good idea of what the USA will gain from giving amnesty to illegals and opening the door to major future immigration from Mexico? There definitely has to be more than just 'cheaper labor to help the farmers'. I'm wondering if there are some negotiations that might relate to the drugs that come through our borders from both Mexico and South America. Or if amnesty somehow figures into the $3.5 billion credit line being negotiated by the US to help Mexico clean up it's $104 billion debt.

Since the USA population is now in excess of 304 million people and Canada has a mere 33+ million people, why aren't the immigrants being directed there where so much unpopulated land is standing?

**********
Check out this article stating that the way things are looking right now, and by 2050 our population will have soared to 438 million, creating complete havoc.

U.S. Population Grows Due to Immigration as Infrastructure Weakens
"This does not even address the profound national issues of "borders, language and culture" that will be affected by new waves of mass immigration. 438 million? That number is just too many to allow any sort of society to function on half a continent, mostly near the coastlines. But one could also focus on the "depletion" of the traditional American concepts of national boundaries, or the decline of the nation's common English language and some semblance of an "American" culture based on a shared history. No, if you focus on that kind of thing, people will think that you are talking about immigration in terms of race.

So better just to focus on the fact that an increased U.S. population � from whatever source � will lead to massive shortages of food, water and energy. And the public infrastructure will simply break down. Vast swaths of the country will become unrecognizable slums filled with broken-down housing, bad transportation, and hungry and thirsty people living on the squalid edge of human survival.

I guess Canada follows their immigration requirements whereas we do not
How to Become a Canadian Citizen

I believe they do have an ulterior motive for allowing them here.
My guess is that PART of it is so they can use it (to distinguish Americans from Mexicans) as an excuse to enforce the National ID

I believe every word of it.

This is not just illegal immigration, it is an INVASION.

Being done very quietly, but with the same level of future demise, as if they came in with guns blazing.

I live in the middle of America, thousands of miles from any border, yet I can't read the signs at my own bank, because they are in Spanish.

Several areas of our city look like little Tijuana, with no sign that this is an American Street
What so ever. Not a single sign in English.

I even see some of the younger ones, have painted messages on the rear windows of their vehicles, in fact, I have seen this one on at least 5 different cars recently.

"WE TAKIN OVER"

And they are.

You have an easy border to your south with some destitute people looking for a change. We have a cold barren wasteland. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You have an easy border to your south with some destitute people looking for a change. We have a cold barren wasteland. :D

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Don't think that will save Canada in the long run!

Save us from what?

Hi purplewings, as an outsider I'm reluctant to comment... although from what I can gather, there is an acute labor shortage in the US that can't be ignored.

Visa/legalization Proposals -- Entrepreneur recruits Mexicans for temporary golf course jobs
....proponents of temporary workers insist that the numbers don't lie, and they warn of a dire U.S. labor shortage that they say threatens America's economic prosperity and its way of life. By 2010, according to the Census Bureau, baby boomers are expected to be retiring at a rate of 1.5 million per year. And according to the U.S. Labor Statistics Bureau, as many as 167 million jobs are expected to be available with only 158 million workers on hand.

Apologies for the dated (2002) article. If these figures are way out of date and there's something more current, let me know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frangipanis

hi purplewings, as an outsider I'm reluctant to comment.... although from what I can gather, there is an acute labor shortage in the US that can't be ignored.

Visa/legalization Proposals -- Entrepreneur recruits Mexicans for temporary golf course jobs
....proponents of temporary workers insist that the numbers don't lie, and they warn of a dire U.S. labor shortage that they say threatens America's economic prosperity and its way of life. By 2010, according to the Census Bureau, baby boomers are expected to be retiring at a rate of 1.5 million per year. And according to the U.S. Labor Statistics Bureau, as many as 167 million jobs are expected to be available with only 158 million workers on hand.

apologies for the dated (2002) article. If these figures are way out of date and there's something more current, let me know.

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In my state at this time, we are cutting back on government, have ended state medical assistance and closed many schools because we are almost bankrupt due to the auto factories closing or moving out of the country. Our unemployment is 8.5%. These people would all be available for temporary jobs that paid enough to make it worth the trip to get there

That's the trick. These people hiring immigrants are paying them a wage that is unliveable. Once the immigrants become legal, they will want jobs that pay a living wage too. They accept the extremely low wages because they aren't here legally. BTW, these are summer jobs, who supports the illegals in the winter?

If the state agencies functioned properly, those kind of jobs would be for able bodied citizens receiving state aid, instead of letting the public support them.

I'd also say that the rate our corporations are moving to other countries will curtail many of those 167 million jobs - but apparently it sounds like a good reason to go against the citizen's wishes.

I think our politicians have much more going on with all this immigration than they want us to know. Perhaps we need more military people? Whatever it is, I'm sure it will be to their benefit.

Yeah they raise taxes because they want more money so then people move out of the city because they can't afford to go to work with the prices of public transportation, parking and occupation tax who can afford to work? Why do politicians think they can make more by raising the cost to work when it drives people away.
I'm not even sure how the illegal immigrants can afford it other than the ones that do construction type work.

Yeah I'll start a new one on THAT

The situation of millions of illegal immigrants in America is a *big problem*... and big problems have to be addressed, not ignored. Bush in his 8 years as President did nothing to address this terrible problem. Why? Because his corporate friends want illegal immigrants in our country! McCain, er McBush, supported a bill for amnesty for illegals, but he changed his mind, flip flopped, to be in line with the corporates.

Having a *huge subclass* of Spanish speaking workers, unidentified, uninsured, not loyal, no vested interest in our country, some criminal elements, not good!. I don't know this issue very well as I am more involved in the war issues and economic issues for the middle class...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by purplewings

In my state at this time, we are cutting back on government, have ended state medical assistance and closed many schools because we are almost bankrupt due to the auto factories closing or moving out of the country. Our unemployment is 8.5%. These people would all be available for temporary jobs that paid enough to make it worth the trip to get there

That's the trick. These people hiring immigrants are paying them a wage that is unliveable. Once the immigrants become legal, they will want jobs that pay a living wage too. They accept the extremely low wages because they aren't here legally. BTW, these are summer jobs, who supports the illegals in the winter?

If the state agencies functioned properly, those kind of jobs would be for able bodied citizens receiving state aid, instead of letting the public support them.

I'd also say that the rate our corporations are moving to other countries will curtail many of those 167 million jobs - but apparently it sounds like a good reason to go against the citizen's wishes.

I think our politicians have much more going on with all this immigration than they want us to know. Perhaps we need more military people? Whatever it is, I'm sure it will be to their benefit.

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I hear your concerns. The problem being that if you paid redundant workers in Detroit to relocate to work in jobs Mexicans are willing to do at a fraction of the wages, farmers would not be able to compete with countries such as Brazil and entire markets would collapse. So it's a dilemma, with no easy fix.

By the way, while the US is our most important trading partner and not overly taken for granted, heavily subsidised onions produced in the US are dumped on our supermarket shelves under the banner of "free trade" to the detriment of Australian farmers.

I guess I wasn't clear... It is mandatory for a nation to know who is in the country... especially in such huge numbers. That is a dangerous situation... no allegiance, huge numbers, not English speakers, and so on... but, it takes guts to support legislation to facilitate knowing where these people are, such as roads to citizenship.

It takes guts because the uneducated American people want to simply hate these people and not do the right thing to protect our country.

Both candidates support shamnesty . It will be the law next year.

We are led to believe that Americans like Sapph will not do certain jobs and only the immigrants will do them. That is an insulting lie.

But if we are looking for good high paying American jobs that Americans will do then drill here ,drill now, refine here ,refine now.

Quote:

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I guess I wasn't clear... It is mandatory for a nation to know who is in the country... especially in such huge numbers. That is a dangerous situation... no allegiance, huge numbers, not English speakers, and so on... but, it takes guts to support legislation to facilitate knowing where these people are, such as roads to citizenship.

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What it takes is a lack of spine by our elected leaders to enforce our laws . Supporting shamnesty takes no guts. It is the simplest way to get around the fact that we have permitted this unchecked illegal immigration for so long.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by purplewings

Does anyone know, or have a good idea of what the USA will gain from giving amnesty to illegals and opening the door to major future immigration from Mexico? There definitely has to be more than just 'cheaper labor to help the farmers'. I'm wondering if there are some negotiations that might relate to the drugs that come through our borders from both Mexico and South America. Or if amnesty somehow figures into the $3.5 billion credit line being negotiated by the US to help Mexico clean up it's $104 billion debt.

Since the USA population is now in excess of 304 million people and Canada has a mere 33+ million people, why aren't the immigrants being directed there where so much unpopulated land is standing?

**********
Check out this article stating that the way things are looking right now, and by 2050 our population will have soared to 438 million, creating complete havoc.

U.S. Population Grows Due to Immigration as Infrastructure Weakens
"This does not even address the profound national issues of "borders, language and culture" that will be affected by new waves of mass immigration. 438 million? That number is just too many to allow any sort of society to function on half a continent, mostly near the coastlines. But one could also focus on the "depletion" of the traditional American concepts of national boundaries, or the decline of the nation's common English language and some semblance of an "American" culture based on a shared history. No, if you focus on that kind of thing, people will think that you are talking about immigration in terms of race.

So better just to focus on the fact that an increased U.S. population � from whatever source � will lead to massive shortages of food, water and energy. And the public infrastructure will simply break down. Vast swaths of the country will become unrecognizable slums filled with broken-down housing, bad transportation, and hungry and thirsty people living on the squalid edge of human survival.

---

What does the US have to gain?

Legalize them [ amnesty if you will ], after health and security screenings.
If you are a felon, you should get fingerprinted and deported.

Come on now people, what are we going to do? Round up and deport > 10 million people?
Penalize small business owners because they don't have the where with all to accurately verify citizenship? Maybe corporations will have to actually pay a standard wage and thereby helping alll workers "legal or not."


Welcome them to be part of the American dream, where through hardwork and education, you have the possibility of advancing socioeconomically. Become a productive taxpaying member of society.

This competittion stimlates the "natives" to also work hard and not get complacent because they can trace their ancestry to the Mayflower. Competition is at the root of Capitalism, our culture, why exclude immmigrants?

Show the world our humanity by accepting them - is not what the US did with the Irish, Italian, German etc immigrations? Are we not better than the majority of the world, where tribalism and ethnic divisions lead to atrocities? [ Balkans, Africa, Middle East for example.

Learn Spanish / estudia Espanol. Most countrys have more than one language. It is a business opportunity to serve their needs. Integrate cultures like we already are and have done with other waves of immigration.

Learn the lesson of Europe and Muslim immigration. Immigrants can be a benefit if treated humanely and accepted rather than a discontented, disenfranchised, separate minority.

This is from a first generation American, whose father was a recruited professional in the early 1960s.

Quote:

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Show the world our humanity by accepting them - is not what the US did with the Irish, Italian, German etc immigrations? Are we not better than the majority of the world, where tribalism and ethnic divisions lead to atrocities? [ Balkans, Africa, Middle East for example.

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Not to my knowledge. People have always had to go through a process to become a citizen. How can something be illegal and suddenly it's legal? There are thousands of people in other countries with their names on long waiting lists to come here, is it humane to ignore them in favor of those who came uninvited?

We have humanity, yes - but common sense tells us this is a mess and will create many more problems than it will bring good.

We are not excluding immigrants. I think America has done wonderfully with immigration, except in this case because they never really enforced the law.

I know all my ancestors were processed BEFORE they were admitted .

Quote:

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Learn the lesson of Europe and Muslim immigration.

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Native Dutch have been so inundated by the "Muslim immigration " that many are seeking to emigrate to a more Euro-friendly nation .

More And More Dutch Leaving The Netherlands

Liberal Netherlands grows less so on immigration | csmonitor.com


Blonde Swedish women are dying their hair black to avoid the harassment and sexual abuse from Moslem men in their country.There is a reign of terror against Swedish women with an unprecedented increase in rapes.They are inventing now belts for themselves to give added protection against sexual assalt. They are even being assaulted at dance clubs with knives because the Muslim men object to their behavior.

» Muslim Rape Wave in Sweden The Logic Society

Many immigrants get an EU Visa in one country and then go on a European wide crime-wave.Then head back to their country of origin.
RussiaToday : Features : Norwegians battle Eastern Europe crooks
(note : due to fear and political correctness the article identifies the criminals as "Eastern European")

Simularily the Brits have gone out of their way to appease the "immigrants " . They report that it is a myth that there is an increase in crime as a result of this immigration.
But there has been an increase in violent crime ;especially knife wielding criminals that peaked as the wave of immigration did.
Mass immigration to blame for British crime spikes and knife culture « Aftermath News


The most recent example of Dhimminitude is the British judge who decided that British law should not reign supreme and instead Sharia law in some circumstances should replace the laws of the land.
Sharia law SHOULD be used in Britain, says UK's top judge | Mail Online
And there was a recent decision that was made that compels the police to outfit their dogs with " booties "before they enter Muslim homes.

These are lessons we in the States are learning all too well .

All who have opened their country to these immigrants are ready to leave and probably want to come here, but by then, we'll be in the same miserable situation and have no place to go. Aren't we supposed to learn from what we see?

With Obama as president, I believe we'll have even more immigrants coming in from Africa... many of them practicing Muslims. That should please everyone who sees no connection between Muslims and terrorism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by purplewings

With Obama as president, I believe we'll have even more immigrants coming in from Africa

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Why do you say that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Native Dutch have been so inundated by the "Muslim immigration " that many are seeking to emigrate to a more Euro-friendly nation .

More And More Dutch Leaving The Netherlands

Liberal Netherlands grows less so on immigration | csmonitor.com


Blonde Swedish women are dying their hair black to avoid the harassment and sexual abuse from Moslem men in their country.There is a reign of terror against Swedish women with an unprecedented increase in rapes.They are inventing now belts for themselves to give added protection against sexual assalt. They are even being assaulted at dance clubs with knives because the Muslim men object to their behavior.

» Muslim Rape Wave in Sweden The Logic Society

Many immigrants get an EU Visa in one country and then go on a European wide crime-wave.Then head back to their country of origin.
RussiaToday : Features : Norwegians battle Eastern Europe crooks
(note : due to fear and political correctness the article identifies the criminals as "Eastern European")

Simularily the Brits have gone out of their way to appease the "immigrants " . They report that it is a myth that there is an increase in crime as a result of this immigration.
But there has been an increase in violent crime ;especially knife wielding criminals that peaked as the wave of immigration did.
Mass immigration to blame for British crime spikes and knife culture « Aftermath News


The most recent example of Dhimminitude is the British judge who decided that British law should not reign supreme and instead Sharia law in some circumstances should replace the laws of the land.
Sharia law SHOULD be used in Britain, says UK's top judge | Mail Online
And there was a recent decision that was made that compels the police to outfit their dogs with " booties "before they enter Muslim homes.

These are lessons we in the States are learning all too well .

---

While this is true, Western Europe is not the USA: Mexican's are not radical Muslims.

Western Europe is advanced secularism, religious identity and probably national identity is frowned upon. They can't compete with the religious identity of their Muslim immigrants, because in general the Europeans have lost their strong Christian identity. This is still not true in the USA though this is what the secular separation of church and state want.


Compared to European Muslims Mexicans in Americans can find employment, though that may be below the minimum wage. A lot of the unemployment in Europe is due to their minimum wage and entitlement programs. Who suffers, minorities, which also happens to be a lot of male Muslim youths.



BUt if you think immigaration is a problem here:


Europe and the Huddled Masses - WSJ.com

Quote:

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With around six million illegal migrants already living in the EU and perhaps as many as 500,000 arriving each year, the problem of illegal immigration has reached the same order of magnitude in Europe as in the U.S. And the potential for illegal immigration to the EU is arguably bigger than to the U.S. Bordering both North Africa and the former Soviet states, Europe has the equivalent of several Mexicos on its doorstep.

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Wanted to add this article to the mix:


Who are the "moderate Muslims", asks Muqtedar Khan, Ph.D.


"For moderate Muslims, Ijtihad is a way of life, which simultaneously allows Islam to reign supreme in the heart and the mind to experience unfettered freedom of thought. A moderate Muslim is therefore one who cherishes freedom of thought while recognizing the existential necessity of faith. She aspires for change, but through the power of mind and not through planting mines.

Moderate Muslims aspire for a society – a city of virtue -- that will treat all people with dignity and respect. There will be no room for political or normative intimidation. Individuals will aspire to live an ethical life because they recognize its desirability. Communities will compete in doing good and politics will seek to encourage good and forbid evil. They believe that the internalization of the message of Islam can bring about the social transformation necessary for the establishment of the virtuous city. The only arena in which Moderate Muslims permit excess is in idealism.


Today, the relationship between Islam and the rest is getting increasingly worse. Muslim militants are sowing seeds of poison and hatred between Muslims and the rest of humanity by committing egregious acts of violence in the name of Islam. In this precarious environment, it is important that everyone finds and nurtures the many wonderful examples of moderate Muslims one can still find.

Chandra Muzaffar in Malaysia, Tarik Ramadan in Europe, Maulana Waheeduddin Khan and Asghar Ali Engineer in India, Khalid Abul Fadl and Louay Safi in the US, Karim Soroush and Muhammad Khatami in Iran and many many more who are committed to their Jihad (struggle) to revive the spirit of Ijtihad. Fortunately the tradition is alive globally; it needs the support and the attention of all who aspire for peace and understanding."

It's good to know all Muslims are not involved in egregious acts, although one would wonder how the militants became so widespread. It seems when inflamed about an act they disapprove of, in no time streets around the world are filled with militants threatening death to that person. It's very intimidating. It is estimated that 15% of the Muslim population fall under militant category. That would exceed 150 million at this time but growing at an immense rate of speed.

Knowing this huge number of radicals exist might keep others from turning to that religion, but it doesn't seem to do that. Their violence is felt around the world and it is to be feared.

Naziism - hatred - evil are words that well describe this movement.

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Today, the relationship between Islam and the rest is getting increasingly worse. Muslim militants are sowing seeds of poison and hatred between Muslims and the rest of humanity by committing egregious acts of violence in the name of Islam. In this precarious environment, it is important that everyone finds and nurtures the many wonderful examples of moderate Muslims one can still find.

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I fully agree with this .

Quote:

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While this is true, Western Europe is not the USA: Mexican's are not radical Muslims

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True however this skirts the point that with the wave of hard working illegal immigrats into the country is also coming a wave of criminals .There is no process to identify this element under the current structure and until the borders are controlled there will not be.

We went through this before . We signed onto an amnesty plan in the 1980s that was supposed to solve the problem because enforcement of the laws would follow. That was a canard ;a quick fix to deal with the illegals already here. The wave of illegal immigration increased instead and is a bigger problem then it was 20 years ago,

Now we are told that again all the problems would be solved if only we granted them citizenship. Fool me once... No ; concentrate on border security first and then when we demonstrate we have that under a resonable degree of control then I'm more than willing to negotiate that "path to citizenship" .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by purplewings

It's good to know all Muslims are not involved in egregious acts, although one would wonder how the militants became so widespread. It seems when enflamed about an act they disapprove of, in no time streets around the world are filled with militants threatening death to that person. It's very intimidating. It is estimated that 15% of the Muslim population fall under militant category. That would exceed 150 million at this time but growing at an immense rate of speed.

Knowing this huge number of radicals exist might keep others from turning to that religion, but it doesn't seem to do that. Their violence is felt around the world and it is to be feared.

Naziism - hatred - evil are words that well describe this movement.

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I personally don’t want to live my life fearing terrorists of any description that make up such a tiny percentage of the world’s population – where the vast majority of us are peace loving citizens. Besides, provoking fear in others is what terrorists want to achieve, and I’m not about to give them the satisfaction. Nor am I ready to give up my right to live my life in relative peace with people around me. I treat everyone I meet with equal respect that at the end of the day, I believe does make a difference.

Our intelligence agencies are there to ferret out would-be terrorists. Let them take on the major burden of worrying about who the terrorists are and where they can be found.