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Married an active duty military man in 1971. He had been in the military 3 years prior to our marriage. We were married almost 16 years, divorced in 1987. He retired from the military in 1990.
Is there anyway I can receive any of his retirement? Or is it "too late"? Or does it depend on other circumstances? Thanks
You are saying that you divorced in 1987? Wouldn't he have retired 'early' if he did so in 1990? Does that make twenty years? What does your divorce say? I believe you are getting into a technical area and will need a good attorney to determine whether you have waived your claim. Were you represented in the divorce?
We were divorced in 1987. He had been in the military for 3 yrs. When we married in 1971 the divorce was uncontested, I was shell shocked, and just signed the paperwork.
You've probably heard, "The devil's in the details." And, that is why there are contests, to resolve property division, as well as the other issues. You need to locate your copy of the divorce, etc. What does the divorce decree say? Did you have a lawyer?
I do not have a copy of the divorce decree. No, I did not have a lawyer. I've got lots of "details", and believe me, the devil is in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
You need to get your copy, pronto! Then see a competent marital lawyer to get a legal opinion of what rights you have, under the divorce and the law of your state. You may have an unlitigated claim that needs to be pursued.
How do I get a copy of the divorce decree? He filed for divorce, I signed the paperwork, I was young and naïve. I'm sure it said I would not get any of his retirement. He knew exactly what he was doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
Regardless, I spent almost 16 years of my life married to him, endured MANY deployments, worked (outside the home) full time, and raised our 2 children. We married when I was a teenager, he RULED my world. Until he decided to exit with a girl that was barely older than our daughter. There's plenty more, but does it really matter? I doubt it. Live and learn.
Thanks for your response. I will try to find a "competent" marital lawyer, at least get an opinion of my rights, if any.
You should locate your divorce (you need the entire file) in either your home county or his home county at the time the divorce was filed. Have you ever seen it? It should state what county and state.
As for a lawyer, check this: Home - American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers
Of course, joining an association doe not a good lawyer make; personal referrals are best.
floridanative: Have you remarried? That will determine a lot.
The rule of thumb is if you are married to the active duty service member for 10 years you are entitled to 30% of his retirement. You may have waived that in your divorce agreement, though.
Wouldn't hurt to consult with an attorney familiar with active duty military to see if the issue can be revisited. You may have health benefits available as well.
If you were married 16 years of your ex-husband's 22 year military career you should be entitled to 36.36% of his gross retirement benefits [16/22= 72.72% marital property (or community property in some states) divided by 2 = 36.36%.] It all depends what's in the divorce decree. So check it out.
You could have also been named as SBP beneficiary if he elected the SBP on retirement (it could have been required in the divorce decree--typically is). Since you were married over 10 years DFAS would send you a check directly (again, if the retirement is divided in the divorce decree).
You have to look at what's in the judgment. If you signed off on it and gave it to him it's gone.
Oh, and there's no health benefits. You would have been entitled to one years worth but it's too late for that now.
I am married to a man who served 20 years in the Navy. We married 1 week before he went to boot camp. If we divorced there is no way I would receive 50% of his pension. It doesn't work that way with military pensions.
I know this from knowing other women who have divorced (I live near the world's largest Navy base) and also from consulting with an attorney when we went through a really rough time after he retired. A spouse who has been a housewife the entire time can expect 35%. A spouse who has worked during the service member's career and has their own retirement (401k, etc) can expect about 25%. If we divorce tomorrow I will retain my health benefits unless I remarry.
Hence, my rule of thumb.
[QUOTE=cadillac59;1527715]
If you signed off on it and gave it to him it's gone.
The big "if", and I'm sure I did, like I said, he knew exactly what he was doing, and I was too young, or too stupid, to do otherwise.
[QUOTE=Emland;1527663]floridanative: Have you remarried? That will determine a lot.
The rule of thumb is if you are married to the active duty service member for 10 years you are entitled to 30% of his retirement. You may have waived that in your divorce agreement, though.
I am not married. Since the divorce in 1987 (22 yrs ago) I was remarried for less than 2 years, and that was in 2003.
Thank you for the info/your response.
Umm, If you were married for 16 years, that meant you would have been, at least, in your mid to late 30s when you divorced. So the too young doesn't sound right.Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillac59
Your ONLY hope is getting an attorney that can prove you were taken advantage of. A long shot at best.
P.S. When you quote someone's post, their post is enclosed in a {quote}{/quote} bracket pair. For the quote to appear properly, you have to leave the bracketed pair
I am married to a man who served 20 years in the Navy. We married 1 week before he went to boot camp. If we divorced there is no way I would receive 50% of his pension. It doesn't work that way with military pensions.
It most certainly does in California. Unless your state has some different rule of its own on your interest in military retirements, this is exactly how it works and DFAS honors this sort of division all the time. The division is 50/50 if there is a 100% overlap of marital time (during which the servicemember performed creditable service toward retirement) with the total creditable time served in the military.
I know this from knowing other women who have divorced (I live near the world's largest Navy base) and also from consulting with an attorney when we went through a really rough time after he retired.
I know this from being a family law attorney in California and a Certified Family Law Specialist in this state, certified by the California State Bar Board of Legal Specialization.
I also know this from personally having represented former military members in divorces and seeing orders processed by the court, signed by a judge, and approved by DFAS providing for a 50/50 division of a former military members retirement benefits.
[I]A spouse who has been a housewife the entire time can expect 35%. A spouse who has worked during the service member's career and has their own retirement (401k, etc) can expect about 25%.
What state has this sort of rule? I've never heard of such a thing and in any event, if any state had such a rule, it would only apply to that particular jurisdiction. That's not a universal rule. I can cite a practice guide for the entire country that references the time rule I mentioned.
If we divorce tomorrow I will retain my health benefits unless I remarry.
Correct, if you are a 20/20/20 spouse or for one year only of you are a 20/20/15 spouse, none if you are neither.
[QUOTE=floridanative;1528136]Remarriage does not waive your right to your share of your ex-husband's military retirement. However, as I said whether it was waived depends on what the divorce decree provided for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emland
Check this: "The Spouse's Strategy"
Military Pension Division Information
Thanks for posting that link, that's an informative website.Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
I practice in California so I really cannot speak to the substantive domestic relations law of other states. However, my recollection is that the military leaves it to state courts and the state's domestic relations laws to determine the former spouse's interest in a military retirement and will honor any division up to but not exceeding a 50% division of the former servicemember's retirement.
We get 50% division orders all the time here (although I've noticed many that fall a little short of 50% because of retirements that occur after separation or because many marriage took place after enlistment).
Division of military retirements is super-easy. All you use is the familiar time rule (the fraction I mentioned earlier) that divides marital time during which the member performed creditable service that counts toward retirement by the total creditable service time, then divide by 2 and that's it for what percentage of the total retirement goes where.
The OP could still be married, for all we know. If she's divorced, she may, or may not, have waived her claim to equitable distribution.
Got to get a copy of the entire file!
I think she's sure she's divorced (she mentioned having remarried as well). But yes, she has to review the divorce decree to get the answer she is looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
Thank you for the posting info.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
As far as the "too young doesn't sound right" comment, I was 34 yrs old when the bomb hit, so call me stupid. You don't know my background, the way I was raised, or the dynamics of this marriage, but I don't think ANY of that matters.
You say my "ONLY hope" is to prove I was taken advantage of... well, if that's true, I should be entitled to his WHOLE retirement and a couple body parts.
And furthermore, if I won, the case should go down in history as the single greatest victory for women or men everywhere that have been abused.
It does not matter if you were married 20 month or 20 years. You are entitled to a percentage of his retirement. Did you sign anything that stated that you waived it? I am not a lawyer nor am I legal... This is just my personal experience, but you could file a intergection with the court system. Since it is so long ago, you would really have to speak to a lawyer and bring all documentation with you. Hope this helps
Thank you so much for this response. I didn't think all the dirty laundry matters, or the numbers. If I did waive it, in the divorce decree, is it futile to even pursue?Quote:
Originally Posted by dk321
George or Cadillac - it sounds like you both think if I waived my rights to the retirement in the divorce decree, then I'm done... no chance of anything. Is that right?Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillac59
All three of us think that. As I said, the only chance is if you can convince a court that you were taken advantage of. And that's a long shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by floridanative
I'm not trying to be picky, but if you don't have a copy of your divorce and if you have never seen the decree, how do you know that you are divorced?Quote:
Originally Posted by floridanative
As for the waiver, the law varies from state to state and can depend of various circumstances, such as whether you had a lawyer or whether there is an 'express' waiver, or 'implied' waiver.
But the starting point is for you to get a copy of the entire file; read it and let us know what it says, and what state you are in. There is a limited amount of legal research that can be done just using Google; that is why you need to speak with a knowledgeable practitioner in your state.
I said I don't have a copy of the divorce decree, I did not say that I've never seen it. I have ordered a copy from the office of vital statistics in Florida. Should have it within 2-3 weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
I don't know who appointed ScottGem the spokesperson for the group, but he says unless I can prove I was "taken advantage of" I don't have a prayer. Do you agree?
No, I don't agree. I'm not certain what you will get from the Dept of Vital Statistics, but divorce records are maintained like other court records, essentially forever. I believe you need to locate the county court clerk's office and get a copy of the entire file, not just a part of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by floridanative
I will get a copy of the entire file. The application I completed with the office of vital stats said it was for the "dissolution of marriage granted in Florida", it cost $5.00. I will contact the clerk's office in Clay County, Florida where it took place. Thank you for the help.Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
First, no one appointed me anything nor did I assume that role. But you said that "it sounds like you both think if I waived my rights to the retirement in the divorce decree, then I'm done.... ". I merely replied that I also said the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by floridanative
And I'll stand on that opinion. But the opinion is based on what you have said. Without knowing what the divorce decree said, I can only go by your statement; "the divorce was uncontested, I was shell shocked, and just signed the paperwork." If he drew up the decree and you signed off on it, then there is a good likelihood that you voluntarily signed your rights away. If that is the case, then the only way to get any of those rights back is to prove that you were taken advantage of.
Once you get the divorce decree, you will be in a much better position to understand what you signed and what rights you may or may not have at this point. We may be able to help further once you have more information. So please keep us posted.
First, you assumed the role when you said "all 3 of us think that".Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
Stand on your opinion. Good man.
No, I was commenting on what YOU said and adding that I said the same thing. Please don't put words in my keyboard ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by floridanative
I located the case on the county court clerk's website, and I ordered the documents, it said there were 4 pages, and they will be mailed within 2-3 days. It doesn't seem like 4 pages would be everything, but I'll see what I get and go from there. Thank you for your help.Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
Just curious: Were there any children involved? Also, division of property? Payment of debts? Claims for alimony? I know you will need to wait until the package arrives, but these are the relevant issues in the ordinary divorce.
Yes on everything you ask, except the alimony. No alimony.Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
Remember Cool Hand Luke - "What we have here is a failure to communicate".Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
I think what started it was when I SAID I was "too young" and YOU SAID the numbers don't add up. I meant I was too young when I married him and after 16 yrs of being dominated and controlled, I certainly wasn't savy enough to know what the hell to do when the bomb hit. Anyway, what difference does any of that make??
I wasn't quite finished... (still making mistakes)...Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
Anyway, I don't understand what difference any of it makes if what YOU SAID is true and I signed off on his retirement in our divorce settlement, then I'm done... unless according to you, I can prove he took advantage of me...
Well, how am I gonna do that ScottGem??
If you can answer that question, I want to tell you a story about the Accountant, who loved his male friend, the Architect, more than he loved his wife... he SAID he didn't... but, he did, and yes, he "took advantage" in lots of ways. You know sort of like the slimy McGreevy guy... oh well, I guess that's a story for the relationship section.
At least George thinks there's hope, and maybe others, we'll see...
Peace.
I'm sorry to say I think that if your disso judgment says you waived your interest in your ex-husband's retirement, it's done. And I think you kind of have that sense about it yourself.
Do you really think you can come back into court 20 years after the fact and re-open the case and say your were taken advantage of? Seriously? I'm not saying it's impossible but even if you were able to do this, the first thing you are going to be asked is when you discovered you were taken advantage of and why you didn't know this earlier.
Let's say your ex-husband lied at the time of the divorce (1987) and talked you into waiving the retirement because he said he was planning on getting out of the service and not retiring. He retired in 1990. Did you just find out about his retirement recently? If so, why? See the problems?
Plus, even if there were fraud, we have a rule in California (I know you are in Florida, this is just given as an example) that says you have to come into court within one year of the time you discovered or should have discovered the fraud, otherwise it's too late.
Obviously you should check all this out with a Florida lawyer but as I said I wouldn't hold my breath on being successful.
I'm not holding my breath on anything. I ask a question, got a few responses, a few suggestions, a few remarks, that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillac59
Update... who knew any govt. office was so efficient--- package mailed yesterday, I rec. it today. That's unbelievable in itself.
Anyhow, it appears under paragraph #13 (ironic) that I have signed away all claim to my ex-husband's retirement. It says, "Neither party shall have a claim against the retirement benefits available to the other party."
So, stick a fork in me.
I want to apologize to ScottGem and/or Cadallic59 if I was rude. Thank you all for the responses - esp. George.
I admit it is a hard pill to swallow, and I feel so stupid. I worked for 16 yrs and had $20,000 in an IRA in 1990. he was in the military for 20 yrs, and has gotten probably close to $20,000 EVERY year since 1990 and will continue to every year for the rest of his life. (do the math on that one)
Nobody ever said life is fair.
Thanks again, and when I really get down on myself for being so dumb, I just think about this woman with 6 kids, that just had 8 more, and I know there are.people a lot dumber than me.
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