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-   -   Roman catholic diocese of Brooklyn, New York v. Andrew m. Cuomo, governor of New York (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=847854)

  • Nov 28, 2020, 05:28 AM
    tomder55
    Roman catholic diocese of Brooklyn, New York v. Andrew m. Cuomo, governor of New York
    SCOTUS decision is a victory for 1st amendment rights to free exercise of religion.
    20A87 Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo (11/25/2020) (supremecourt.gov)

    As with all of the rights enumerated there are no 'absolute ' rights. Yes it is an absolute right to believe .But there is not necessarily an absolute right to act. Certain religious practices have been outlawed. Human sacrifice comes immediately to mind. But so does the decision to outlaw polygamy . There are mandates to get vaccinated that conflict with religious beliefs . SCOTUS in the past has played the balancing ct with the idea that there may be compelling reasons for the state to over rule religious practice. I fall in with those who think that in most cases that the 1st amendment right to free exercise takes precedent . In this case ;and I live in an area where this case comes into play; the public health aspect could outweigh the religious freedom aspect . But in this case clearly the religious freedom argument ,and the disparate treatment argument won the

    The majority opinion and the concurrence opinions by Gorsuch and Kavanaugh are based on 1st amendment grounds .

    Roberts and concurring dissents by Kagan ,Sotomayor and Breyer are based on the fact that il duce Cuomo had already lifted the severe restrictions .They therefore believe the case should not have been decided by SCOTUS since the point was moot . But Cuomo makes decrees on a whim . The real point is that he had severe restrictions on religious institutions that he did not impose on secular places . He designated places like Walmart as 'essential ' and waved his draconian restrictions on them ? Well why is not religious gathering essential ? Certainly a church or synagogue that can fit 500 -1000 congregants can comply with the covid restrictions that are imposed on grocery stores and restaurants .
    The minority punted on the issue because they know the religious institutions were right .
  • Nov 28, 2020, 07:14 AM
    talaniman
    I find the Supreme Court ruling a sad commentary that ignores condition during a health crisis. Part of the uncontrolled nature of this virus is the right wing ignoring it for economic and social considerations (RIGHTS). In essence SCOTUS is saying you have a right to spread sickness and death during a health crisis.

    Have at it, but failure to do what it takes to control this virus is the very reason you need more freezer trucks and frontline workers are getting infected...exhausted, and burned out, and infections and death spreading even faster.

    You sure showed Cuomo didn't you.
  • Nov 28, 2020, 07:30 AM
    tomder55
    we do not sacrifice rights in a crisis. I mentioned that SCOTUS has to consider the public health impacts . But signaling out religious institutions for disparate treatment where people gather is plain wrong . The minority opinion did not even argue against that fundamental point. If it is unsafe to gather more than 10 people for a religious ceremony then it is equally unsafe to gather more than 10 people at a shopping mall on Black Friday ...... no ? Cuomo the weasel tried to make the case go away by changing the color code in the area at the last minute .
  • Nov 28, 2020, 07:58 AM
    talaniman
    I get it Tom. You righties aren't flexible during this crisis. It's no sacrifice to observe your religion at home and we have the technology to do so and many do. So go ahead and pack 'em in we have plenty of ventilators and masks and hospitals and workers and refrigerator trucks.

    And the vaccine is on it's way for whomever survives.
  • Nov 28, 2020, 08:07 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    It's no sacrifice to observe your religion at home
    So it's wrong to go to church, but just fine to go to a ballgame, or participate in large crowds engaged in "protesting", or stand with a crowd in a liquor store? SCOTUS correctly decided that the opportunity to gather together to worship is a Constitutionally protected right, whereas there are no such corresponding rights to riot, go to ballgames, or buy liquor.
  • Nov 28, 2020, 09:39 AM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So it's wrong to go to church, but just fine to go to a ballgame, or participate in large crowds engaged in "protesting", or stand with a crowd in a liquor store? SCOTUS correctly decided that the opportunity to gather together to worship is a Constitutionally protected right, whereas there are no such corresponding rights to riot, go to ballgames, or buy liquor.

    Get REAL! No one is even saying that not even Cuomo. He lifted church restrictions. It's up to the institutions to figure out how to SAFELY engage in human activity. I get rights, but is it SAFE? I will point out the laws against rioting, and protesting OUTSIDE, and even schools and restaurants being outside or socially distance.

    Are you wingers saying you can't figure out how to attend church safely, or NOT even willing to try? THAT's the problem...YOU!

    Quote:

    we do not sacrifice rights in a crisis.
    Many are sacrificing their lives for your rights...in a crisis.
  • Nov 28, 2020, 10:15 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Get REAL! No one is even saying that not even Cuomo.
    Of course he is. Go to a crowded liquor store? Fine. Go to a large protest gathering where thousands are gathered together in close quarters? Fine. Go to a ballgame with thousands of other people? Fine. Go to church? Arrest those people!!

    Quote:

    He lifted church restrictions. It's up to the institutions to figure out how to SAFELY engage in human activity. I get rights, but is it SAFE? I will point out the laws against rioting, and protesting OUTSIDE, and even schools and restaurants being outside or socially distance.
    He lifted church restrictions AFTER it was obvious he was in for a court battle.

    Quote:

    Are you wingers saying you can't figure out how to attend church safely, or NOT even willing to try? THAT's the problem...YOU!
    That was not the question. His church restrictions had basically shut churches down.
  • Nov 28, 2020, 10:42 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    He lifted church restrictions.
    He saw the writing on the wall and it appears taking him to court is the way to curb his dictatorial .
    tendencies

    Quote:

    It's up to the institutions to figure out how to SAFELY engage in human activity.
    indeed it is . When a Catholic Church can fit 1,000 people ,then 25% means 250 people can safely gather ;which is more than most masses that get celebrated . Not 10 people .

    Quote:

    Many are sacrificing their lives for your rights...in a crisis.
    Not true . The only spread amongst religious communities has been in the Orthodox Jewish Community ;and they are pretty much a self contained community here , If they get sick or spread it to their community it is on them .
    But that was not the issue . The issue was that religious communities were being unconstitutionally singled out for disparate treatment compared to secular establishments . Sorry if you don't like it but religious liberty is Amendment 1 part 1 . That was the first liberty that concerned the people after the adoption of the constitution .
  • Nov 28, 2020, 11:25 AM
    talaniman
    Good argument but when it spreads to hospitals then it's not just a community problem anymore is it? That's about where individual rights end when they impact adversely the rights of others.
  • Nov 28, 2020, 11:29 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    That's about where individual rights end when they impact adversely the rights of others.
    So a group of Christians gathering in a church in a safe and responsible manner somehow adversely impacts your rights?
  • Nov 28, 2020, 12:17 PM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So a group of Christians gathering in a church in a safe and responsible manner somehow adversely impacts your rights?

    Stop twisting my words! What's your problem?
  • Nov 28, 2020, 12:25 PM
    tomder55
    New Mexico showed the largest increase among states for newly confirmed COVID cases this past week followed by Virginia ,Arizona ,and Vermont . What do all these states have in common ? (hint it isn't their large Orthodox Jewish communities .) Yes you are right ;they all voted for Quid .
  • Nov 28, 2020, 12:45 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    What do all these states have in common ? (hint it isn't their large Orthodox Jewish communities .) Yes you are right ;they all voted for Quid .

    Must be God's judgment raining down on them....
  • Nov 28, 2020, 01:01 PM
    tomder55
    I don't subscribe to such silly simplistic explanations .This is mimicking the 1918 flu . I 've said it before. When herd immunity is achieved through infection or vaccine the pandemic will end . All these petty dictators are not following the science.
  • Nov 28, 2020, 01:02 PM
    jlisenbe
    Stop twisting my words! What's your problem?

    Your words. That's about where individual rights end when they impact adversely the rights of others.


    My reply: So a group of Christians gathering in a church in a safe and responsible manner somehow adversely impacts your rights?

    That's twisting your words???
  • Nov 28, 2020, 01:05 PM
    tomder55
    delete
  • Nov 28, 2020, 01:06 PM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    New Mexico showed the largest increase among states for newly confirmed COVID cases this past week followed by Virginia ,Arizona ,and Vermont . What do all these states have in common ? (hint it isn't their large Orthodox Jewish communities .) Yes you are right ;they all voted for Quid .

    The same trends are present in states that voted for the dufus so what's the point?
  • Nov 28, 2020, 01:18 PM
    jlisenbe
    His point was that the top four all voted dem.
  • Nov 28, 2020, 01:25 PM
    tomder55
    My only point on this topic is that SCOTUS correctly sided with religious liberty and that the minority in the court did not even address the core issue instead deciding to punt over a technicality . BTW you were worried about the court ? Well John Roberts like many Republican nominees in the past has proven that he lied in the hearings and is not an impartial 'referee ' .Since he is no longer the swing vote ;he has decided to go all in with the activists on the court .
  • Nov 28, 2020, 01:43 PM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    His point was that the top four all voted dem.

    10 U.S. States With Most COVID Cases Per 100,000 People in Past 7 Days (newsweek.com)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    My only point on this topic is that SCOTUS correctly sided with religious liberty and that the minority in the court did not even address the core issue instead deciding to punt over a technicality . BTW you were worried about the court ? Well John Roberts like many Republican nominees in the past has proven that he lied in the hearings and is not an impartial 'referee ' .Since he is no longer the swing vote ;he has decided to go all in with the activists on the court .

    Just another tool excluded from the corona mitigation tool box.

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