The following answer is from another website. I don't know how many interviews like this one I've seen on TV. An odd correlation is that they often tend to be Trump cultists. (Maybe not so odd.....)

Answer:

Yes, and mind numbingly stupid. I was actually watching open mouthed an interview yesterday of two nurses who would rather lose their jobs than vaccinate.

They both were asking for religious exemptions. They were Catholic. But the pope had the vaccination and is encouraging Catholics to get it.

One nurse said, "Well, the pope was elected, he’s a hypocrite and he’s not following the Bible."

Huh? This woman knows more about the Bible than the Pope! Just like she knows more about infectious disease than doctors and researchers.

The other woman couldn’t answer a straight question, she wanted to talk about how the statistics were fake, how people who had brain cancer were being listed as dying of cancer. And it was an international conspiracy to keep the real numbers hidden.

She apparently doesn’t know there’s an immediate cause of death and a contributory cause and both are put on the death certificate: immediate-pneomonia, contributory-liver cancer. Immediate-covid, contributory-brain cancer.

She also felt betrayed because at the beginning of the pandemic, nurses were heroes and now she’s being marginalized.

But she’s never going to give up speaking the truth! She wants her children and grandchildren to know she fought. She had tears in her eyes and her voice trembled.

Her grandchildren are likely to be embarrassed and ashamed of her and wish that interview had never been shown on national news.


The above is one of the milder responses of anti-vaxxers. Many are truly bizarre - from aliens placing chips in our bodies with the vaccine to the vaccine being created by Bill Gates so he could take over the world.

Pretty tame compared to what AOC has said.

1. Wanted to do away with ICE.
2. Wanted to do away with DHS.
3. She once tweeted, "It is well past time we eliminate the Electoral College, a shadow of slavery’s power on America today that undermines our nation as a democratic republic,” Huh? What does the electoral college have to do with slavery?
4. Upon losing the Amazon headquarters, $27 billion in taxes and 25 ,000 jobs, AOC tweeted, ”Anything is possible: today was the day a group of dedicated, every day New Yorkers & their neighbors defeated Amazon’s corporate green, its worker exploitation, and the power of the richest man in the world.” So losing jobs is a good thing?
5. AOC sad, “Unemployment is low because everyone has two jobs. Unemployment is low because people are working 60, 70, 80 hours a week and can barely feed their family.” Politifact corrected her outrageous claims. The average number of hours worked in the private sector has been about 34.5 hours a week since 2006,
6. She exhibited her knowledge of government. “If we work our butts off to make sure that we take back all three chambers of Congress – rather, all three chambers of government: the presidency, the Senate, and the House,” AOC said in a conference call to a political action committee.
7. AOC predicted, “The world is going to end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change, and your biggest issue is, your, your biggest issue is how are we gonna pay for it?” If she can find someone else to believe that, that will make two people on the earth who do.

Not sure why we worry about a few anti-vaxxers exercising their freedom when a liberal dem like AOC is actually engaged in making laws.

https://arizonadailyindependent.com/...s-stupid-does/

There are multiple reasons why people are reluctant to take the covid vaccine To lump them into a generalization as selfish is wrong and unpersuasive . It is equally wrong to generalize about their politics. As a percent of the population Blacks and Hispanics lag behind whites in the population vaxxed. So is it safe to conclude that the unvaxxed minorities are "Trump cultists " (whatever than means ) ?


I would also add that these proofs of being vaxxed to conduct normal personal business ;and have employment ,disproportionately target minorities also .


Criticizing , blaming, punishing and shaming will not help if your goal is to get more people vaccinated . Forget far out reasoning like alien probes etc . That is an extremely small group of those who resist the covid vax. The rest have reasoned concerns , Does it make sense that someone would want to avoid putting unknown chemicals in their body? Is it reasonable not to fully trust the pharmaceutical industry? Isn't it true that we have only short term data on the effects and side effects of the vaccines, if only because the trials began less than two years ago. We are learning new things every day about the long term effects of having covid, So it is reasonable to have concerns about the vax side effects .

Otherwise healthy people under fifty have figured out that their level of risk is extremely low. "My body, my choice." They put no one at risk but themselves, so I don't know why it's anyone's business but their own.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

There are multiple reasons why people are reluctant to take the covid vaccine To lump them into a generalization as selfish is wrong and unpersuasive .

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You're right. My examples, admittedly far out, were hyperbolic to demonstrate a larger point. The bulk of anti-vaxxers are ill-informed and reluctant to learn. Blacks are a special case.

Putting unknown chemicals in your body is pretty much what Trump suggested early on. Based on video interviews and other statistics (which I won't cite since you won't read them), I maintain that Trump cultists are the largest anti-vax demographic. They are a cult since they follow Trump no matter what he does or says - it is a blind allegiance to a man who is clearly unhinged - a madman. That is what a cult is.

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I would also add that these proofs of being vaxxed to conduct normal personal business ;and have employment disproportionately target minorities also

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That may be true, but what is the alternative?

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Criticizing , blaming, punishing and shaming will not help if your goal is to get more people vaccinated

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Treating anti-vaxxers as intelligent adults has not worked. They are a danger to themselves and, more importantly, to others including their own friends and families. Blaming/punishing/shaming has worked better than persuasion.

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Is it reasonable not to fully trust the pharmaceutical industry? Isn't it true that we have only short term data on the effects and side effects of the vaccines, if only because the trials began less than two years ago.

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It is far more reasonable to trust the science than not to. A great amount of information is now available based on the nearly 4 BILLION people who have been vaccinated. There has been nothing like it in history.

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I maintain that Trump cultists are the largest anti-vax demographic. They are a cult since they follow Trump no matter what he does or says - it is a blind allegiance to a man who is clearly unhinged - a madman. That is what a cult is.

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And yet it was Trump who fast tracked getting the vax to the public . As I recall it was the Dem politicians that were demagoguing the vaccine including VP Kam the Sham who said she would not get vaxxed because it was a Trump deal ... talk about bizarro reasoning !

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I would also add that these proofs of being vaxxed to conduct normal personal business ;and have employment disproportionately target minorities also


That may be true, but what is the alternative?

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No government mandates .

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Blaming/punishing/shaming has worked better than persuasion.

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Speaking for myself ,I did not get vaxxed until I had a series of discussions with a doctor who was not a traditional practitioner and applies alternate medical care . None of the above methods of "persuasion " would have worked on me . I came from the pharmaceutical industry and know that not everything is for the best scientific reason.

I give you Merck as example A . They have a perfectly good therapeutic drug on the market that is inexpensive and available as a covid anti-viral treatment .They have actively suppressed it's use so they could fast track their new much more expensive covid drug that they also happen to have a $1.2 billion agreement with the government to supply.

I have seen NDAs approved after FDA officials were bribed . The doctor I spoke of does not have a shelf full of samples given to him by industry detail people to push on his patients . The industry spends an average of $20,000 per doctor annually marketing drugs to them . That included the samples I mentioned ,and gifts and perks for scripting the drug to patients . And I've only mentions a few of the institutional corruption practices . So someone like me may be a skeptic . I'm sure those health care providers you dismiss as kooks have similar such tales .

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There has been nothing like it in history.

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exactly
The incidents of drugs being rushed to the market only later to be recalled is extensive . I don't have to go as far back as the thalidomide disaster . I'm talking relatively recent examples
Valdecoxib lasted about 4 years .It is an anti-inflammatory. Then it was recalled because it was causing heart attack, and stroke ,and deaths and a slew of other side effects .
Pemoline used to treat ADHD , after 5 years recalled because it caused liver damage
Vioxx another anti-inflammatory recalled because it caused heart attacks . It was given to over 20 million patients .
Accutane was given to treat acne . It was recalled because it caused birth defects ;miscarriages premature deaths and suicides .
Meridia an appetite suppressant . Recalled because heart attacks and strokes .
Rezulin used to treat diabetes . Recalled because it caused liver failure and death.
Raptiva used to treat psoriasis . Recalled because it damaged the brain and neverous system .

I became convinced it is worth the risk . I don't blame those who take a different view .

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That may be true, but what is the alternative?


No government mandates .

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Absolutely true. Isn't it amazing that acts which result in clear discrimination against minorities are simply in the "That may be true," category when being orchestrated by liberal dems? No big deal!

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Originally Posted by tomder55

And yet it was Trump who fast tracked getting the vax to the public

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Only after far too long of dissing the whole Covid-19 situation causing hundreds of thousands of deaths by his inaction.

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As I recall it was the Dem politicians that were demagoguing the vaccine including VP Kam the Sham who said she would not get vaxxed because it was a Trump deal ... talk about bizarro reasoning !

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Your recollection is wrong! The Dems never demagogued the vaccine and Harris said, accurately after Trump's bizarro statements re COVID, that she would never take a TRUMP vaccine. Neither would I - especially one filled with fish tank cleaner or disinfectant. The bizarro is all Trump's who finally DID take the approved vaccine and kept it a secret.

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No government mandates

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A solution that is worse than the problem.

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Speaking for myself ,I did not get vaxxed until I had a series of discussions with a doctor

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Good for you. No objection to that. If every denier did that, we'd be ahead of the game.

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I give you Merck as example A . They have a p ............................ their new much more expensive covid drug ..... The industry spends an average of $20,000 per doctor annually marketing drugs to them .................... corruption practices

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I don't deny the industry, like all industries, has its share of screwups - honestly and otherwise. How do the examples you noted compare to the successes?

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I'm sure those health care providers you dismiss as kooks have similar such tales

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I never said I dismissed health care providers as kooks. Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said. That was done consistently by another here, and it is quite annoying, especially when it becomes habitual. I have the highest regard for health care providers.

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I became convinced it is worth the risk . I don't blame those who take a different view .

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Your conviction is admirable, but it is the exception. I DO blame those who refuse to get the vaccine for the flimsiest of reasons based on ignorance and misplaced politics.

Reality check . Covid is here to stay. It cannot be eradicated with vaccines , It will eventually mutate to a less serious virus because that serves it's purpose . Flu in all it's variants, and the 4 coronaviruses that make up the common cold are also endemic .Acquired immunity ,memory B cells and T cells over time has brought us to a point that we tolerate the seasonal deaths and illnesses without requiring mandatory vaxxing , lockdowns, masks and social distancing. That will also happen with covid and all the hand wringing won't change that .

What we really need to eradicate is demagogue politicians
who justify suppression of liberty using the virus as a pretext

Perhaps a better question would have been, "Are mandatory vaxxers tyrants?"

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Perhaps a better question would have been, "Are mandatory vaxxers tyrants?"

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What do you suggest regarding vaxxing?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

What we really need to eradicate is demagogue politicians who justify suppression of liberty using the virus as a pretext

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"Give me liberty and possibly death!"

I would quote Franklin but it is too obvious . I guess our deal with the government is Faustian . We empower them to provide safety and then they use that to enslave us . That was Franklin's warning in his famous quote .

All the framers had that concern too.

It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. (Federalist 51 Hamilton and Madison )

What do I suggest? I suggest people take the vax. I know of no good reason not to other than the distinct possibility that some long term effects might show up. But I absolutely encourage those who don't want to take it to stand their ground and not take it, and that would especially include the under 40 crowd and those who have already had and survived Covid. In my relatively small state alone, that's about a half million.

The bottom line is this. It is strictly a personal decision. You put no one at risk other than yourself and anyone else who has chosen not to be vaxed. I have no idea why it is any business of the government.

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"Give me liberty and possibly death!"

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That was, in fact, an entirely accurate description of the situation the men in the Continental Army found themselves. Liberty is always less safe but far more satisfying and filled with potential.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I have no idea why it is any business of the government.

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Thank goodness the government doesn't force us to wear seatbelts! Or get a driver's license! Or get ID for voting! Or demand MMR/polio/DPT etc. vaccinations for our children!

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force us to wear seatbelts!

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Was a terrible idea from the beginning. Why is it someone else's business if I choose not to wear a seatbelt?

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Or get a driver's license!

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Completely different situation. It is certainly the other driver's concern for me to have demonstrated an ability to drive safely and to be forced to help pay for safety on the highways.

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Or get ID for voting!

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Same thing. It is everyone's business that we have elections that are not corrupted. Check out 2020 for evidence.

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Or demand MMR/polio/DPT etc. vaccinations for our children!

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Kind of debatable. The government says it has the authority to force parents to do what is in the best interest of their children. My chief objection would be the concept of the slippery slope upon which, predictably, we find ourselves now.

It's a very simple principle. Is this largely a personal decision with consequences which primarily impact me and me alone, or can the gov demonstrate a genuine public reason for concern with my actions? So a good way to frame it is this. How would my refusal to do XXXXX affect Wondergirl? If that answer is basically, "in no way", then the gov should mind its own business and let me mind mine.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So a good way to frame it is this. How would my refusal to do XXXXX affect Wondergirl? If that answer is basically, "in no way", then the gov should mind its own business and let me mind mine.

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NO, not WG. How would your refusal affect your relatives/friends/neighbors, those who drive on the same roads you do, the children and teachers your own children interact with?

Fair enough. It's really the same principle. But it has to be a direct impact and not simply indirect. If not, then I could say, "How WG spends her money affects, in many ways, her entire community. Therefore the government has a vested interest in telling her how to spend her money."

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Fair enough. It's really the same principle. But it has to be a direct impact and not simply indirect.

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Those direct impacts without seat belts can be killers! That unvaccinated kid with whooping cough who's coughing on my kid has a direct impact on him. Guess how quickly chicken pops can run through a school if no vaccinations.

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If not, then I could say, "How WG spends her money affects, in many ways, her entire community. Therefore the government has a vested interest in telling her how to spend her money."

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I pay both state and federal taxes.

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Those direct impacts without seat belts can be killers

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Not to other people. Only to the driver or any other passenger choosing not to click it.

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That unvaccinated kid with whooping cough who's coughing on my kid has a direct impact on him. Guess how quickly chicken pops can run through a school if no vaccinations.

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Not if your kid is vaxed. It's really very simple.

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I pay both state and federal taxes.

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I was not talking even one small bit about taxes.

Can the gov force you to do business with a particular restaurant or pharmacy because they are not getting enough business, or because they are minority owned and staffed, or because they have a lot of trans people working there? I don't think the gov should be allowed to do that even if, after all, those businesses all suffer indirect impacts of you exercising your freedom to spend your money elsewhere. However, I suspect you would have no problem with it.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Not to other people. Only to the driver or any other passenger choosing not to click it.

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Ever hear of t-boning? rear-ending? front-end crashes? All can be deadly even for the drivers/passengers wearing seatbelts.

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Not if your kid is vaxed. It's really very simple.

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Why would my kid get vaxxed? It's a government plot.

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I was not talking even one small bit about taxes.

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Paying taxes to state and federal governments is a legal requirement.

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Can the gov force you to do business with a particular restaurant or pharmacy because they are not getting enough business, or because they are minority owned and staffed, or because they have a lot of trans people working there? I don't think the gov should be allowed to do that even if, after all, those are all indirect impacts of you exercising your freedom on how to spend your own money.

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This isn't part of the discussion, doesn't happen.

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I suspect you would have no trouble with it.

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Please stop. Right now.

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from Tomder
What we really need to eradicate is demagogue politicians who justify suppression of liberty using the virus as a pretext

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

"Give me liberty and possibly death!"

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Brilliant!

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Ever hear of t-boning? rear-ending? front-end crashes? All can be deadly even for the drivers/passengers wearing seatbelts.

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Ever hear of minding your own business? How is that any concern of yours?

This question remains, very pertinent and very unanswered. Wonder why? If the government can force you to wear a seatbelt and take a vax, then why can't they mandate where you spend your money? Why are you so fearful of answering questions?

Can the gov force you to do business with a particular restaurant or pharmacy because they are not getting enough business, or because they are minority owned and staffed, or because they have a lot of trans people working there? I don't think the gov should be allowed to do that even if, after all, those are all indirect impacts of you exercising your freedom on how to spend your own money.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Ever hear of minding your own business? How is that any concern of yours?

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No concern of mine? Like people being vaxxed? I might be in one of those t-boned cars.

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This question remains, very pertinent and very unanswered. Wonder why? If the government can force you to wear a seatbelt and take a vax, then why can't they mandate where you spend your money? Why are you so fearful of answering questions?

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Fearful? I answered.

Then put on your seatbelt. Not complicated. Take care of you, and let other people be free to take care of themselves as they see fit.

You answered? Sure you did. "This isn't part of the discussion, doesn't happen." That's not an answer.

Here it is again.

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This question remains, very pertinent and very unanswered. Wonder why? If the government can force you to wear a seatbelt and take a vax, then why can't they mandate where you spend your money? Why are you so fearful of answering questions?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Then put on your seatbelt. Not complicated. Take care of you, and let other people be free to take care of themselves as they see fit.

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Seatbelted people have been badly injured and even killed when the car they're in was t-boned. Or rear-ended. Or front-ended.

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You answered? Sure you did. "This isn't part of the discussion, doesn't happen." That's not an answer.

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It. Doesn't. Happen. Name a for-instance.

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Seatbelted people have been badly injured and even killed when the car they're in was t-boned.

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And that's your argument for the gov requiring seatbelts??? Well...OK then. "Wear seatbelts. Get killed in a wreck!"

Read the question carefully. You are completely missing it.

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If the government can force you to wear a seatbelt and take a vax, then why can't they mandate where you spend your money?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

And that's your argument for the gov requiring seatbelts??? Well...OK then. "Wear seatbelts. Get killed in a wreck!"

Read the question carefully. You are completely missing it.

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You have totally gone off the track of your questions and my responses. 'Bye.

Still don't like answering questions? Well, you just don't get it. Too bad.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Still don't like answering questions? Well, you just don't get it. Too bad.

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I. Answered. Every. One.

I don’t think you did, but it’s fine. Good night.

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If the government can force you to wear a seatbelt and take a vax, then why can't they mandate where you spend your money?

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Driving is not a right Driving comes with many preconditions for licensing and insuring . Other vaxes may eradicate the disease . Covid vax surely doesn't . It doesn't prevent getting the virus or transmitting the virus . The covid vax will eventuallly be like the flu vax with constant boosters required and constant tweaking of the formulation . A real $$$ bonanza for big pharm. and their government enablers ;and eventually will stop being a government freebee

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from Tomder
What we really need to eradicate is demagogue politicians who justify suppression of liberty using the virus as a pretext




https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Wondergirl https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom...post-right.png
"Give me liberty and possibly death!"



Brilliant!

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more like ' obey or die ' Then maybe Herr Doctor Fauci will permit us to gather for Christmas as a reward for compliance . I'm more of a 'Live Free or Die 'type of a person
People who decide to skip getting vaxed are not anti-science ,Luddites or domestic terrorists .

Smallpox was fatal in up to 30% of cases . Covid less than 1% More people die from the annual flu than die from car crashes and yet the flu vaccine is not mandated .

Sweden Denmark halted the Moderns vax for people under 30 due to the adverse effects risks . Finland did for men under 30 . Why ? “The Swedish health agency said it would pause using the shot for people born in 1991 and later as data pointed to an increase of myocarditis and pericarditis among youths and young adults that had been vaccinated. Those conditions involve an inflammation of the heart or its lining. ‘The connection is especially clear when it comes to Moderna's vaccine Spikevax, especially after the second dose,’

Sweden, Denmark pause Moderna COVID-19 vaccine for younger age groups | Reuters


The Moderna vax was available to me sooner . I declined . I waited until the Pfizer shot was available to make an appointment and stipulated that was the only one I would take. Pfizer received FDA approval .... Moderna's has not ;only emergency use authorization

This From the FDA

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Reports of adverse events following use of the Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine under emergency use authorization suggest an increased risk of thrombosis involving the cerebral venous sinuses and other sites (including but not limited to the large blood vessels of the abdomen and the veins of the lower extremities) combined with thrombocytopenia and with onset of symptoms approximately one to two weeks after vaccination.• Most cases of thrombosis with thrombocytopenia reported following the Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine have occurred in females ages 18 through 49 years; some have been fatal.• Specific risk factors for thrombosis with thrombocytopenia following the Janssen COVID19 Vaccine and the level of potential excess risk due to vaccination are under investigation.• Based on currently available evidence, a causal relationship between thrombosis with thrombocytopenia and the Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine is plausible.

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Janssen Letter Granting EUA Amendment (April 23, 2021) (valdezak.gov)

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Smallpox was fatal in up to 30% of cases . Covid less than 1% More people die from the annual flu than die from car crashes and yet the flu vaccine is not mandated .

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That is at the core of my question to the mandatory vaxxers. What principle of governance are they applying? If the gov can mandate that I put a drug into my body, then why would it not also be able to do a great many other things not presently being done? It is the question for which I can get no answer, and I suspect it's because they have no idea what to say.

To the Dems it is about control and the covid "crisis " is a pretext. They have their climate change "crisis "warming up in the bull pen.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

To the Dems it is about control and the covid "crisis " is a pretext. They have their climate change "crisis "warming up in the bull pen.

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We KNOW the vaccine works. By denying its use in the name of liberty you are ensuring to help in its spread and mutation.

Yeah. We wouldn't want "we the people" making up their own minds about these things. How dare they!!

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We KNOW the vaccine works.

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You know nothing of the kind . At best you know that vaxxed people survive the virus better and are less likely to be hospitalized in the short term . What we do know is that ANY immunity that the Vax offers is short lived . That is why they now recommend boosters . Immunological studies have documented a steady decline of antibody levels among vaccinated individuals

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However, the antibody levels declined at 12 weeks and 6 months post-vaccination, indicating a waning of the immune response over time. At 6 months after the second dose, the Spike antibody levels were similar to the levels in persons vaccinated with one dose or in COVID-19 convalescent individuals.

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Dynamics of antibody response to BNT162b2 vaccine after six months: a longitudinal prospective study - ScienceDirect

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Interpretation

The mRNA vaccine induces a strong antibody response to SARS-CoV-2 and five VOCs at 1 week post-vaccination that decreases thereafter. T cell responses, although detectable in the majority, were lower in individuals with higher T cell immunosenescent The deterioration of vaccine response suggests the need to monitor for the potential booster vaccination.

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Even Pfizer's unpublished study reached that conclusion, In 2030 we will be looking at our 10th booster jab and the world will not have yet reached either herd immunity or protection from the various mutated variants .(Already we are running out of Greek letters ) .
2021.07.28.21261159v1.full.pdf (medrxiv.org)

The CDC reported in August that vaccine effectiveness among front line workers declined to 66% after the delta variant became dominant in the U.S., compared with 91% before it arose.
Effectiveness of COVID-19 Vaccines in Preventing SARS-CoV-2 Infection Among Frontline Workers Before and During B.1.617.2 (Delta) Variant Predominance — Eight U.S. Locations, December 2020–August 2021 | MMWR (cdc.gov)

Measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox ,small pox hardly mutate at all, but at least eight variants of the Sars covid have already been detected . You are living in a delusional pipe dream if you believe that the vax is the solution . You are the tilter of windmills if you think so.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

You are living in a delusional pipe dream if you believe that the vax is the solution

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That world of delusion I live in is inhabited by every epidemiologist on the planet. Good company, I'd say.

good thing they are not our elected leaders then. Epidemiologists don't have to concern themselves about the balance of public safety and individual liberty . They are more like Herr Doctor Fauci dressing up like the Soup Nazi for Halloween ... " No Christmas For You " !!!!!!!

https://i.imgflip.com/3ytd75.jpg