There are two creation accounts in Genesis. Which one is (more) correct? Does it matter?
Who wrote this part of Genesis? Are the accounts literal, fiction, allegorical, mythical, something else?
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There are two creation accounts in Genesis. Which one is (more) correct? Does it matter?
Who wrote this part of Genesis? Are the accounts literal, fiction, allegorical, mythical, something else?
Amusing and instructive. LOL. Been time enough for a discussion on Genesis to begin. But nobody, especially the three fundamentalists here who it was aimed at, has picked up the gauntlet to defend a literal reading of Genesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Too bad, it could have been fun.
I didn't see this until now. I say both are allegorical. And as we know, many cultures through the ages have written down or passed on verbally their own stories about a Higher Power Who created everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
I agree, but why are there two different accounts of creation? And who wrote this part of Genesis?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
One describes how God created order out of chaos, and the other tells how and why He created mankind. My question is why did it take Him six days?Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
First he creates Adam and Eve together - "male and female he created them". Then later he creates Eve from Adam's rib. Maybe God was dipping into the ambrosia or the nectar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Oh, that's where the Lilith story comes from. She was Adam's first wife but wasn't submissive enough so God got rid of her and created Eve who WAS submissive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
From Wikipedia: In some Jewish folklore, such as the satiric Alphabet of Sirach (c. AD 700–1000), Lilith appears as Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time (Rosh Hashanah) and from the same clay as Adam – compare Genesis 1:27[5] (this contrasts with Eve, who was created from one of Adam's ribs).[6] The legend of Lilith developed extensively during the Middle Ages, in the tradition of Aggadah, the Zohar, and Jewish mysticism.[7] For example, in the 11th-century writings of Isaac ben Jacob ha-Cohen, Lilith left Adam after she refused to become subservient to him and then would not return to the Garden of Eden after she had coupled with the archangel Samael.[8]
The second account expands on the first. Creation of man and woman in chapter 1 is the summary, chapter 2 gives the details.
Moses assembled them from the stories his people had handed down. The "days" are creative acts, guiding the course of evolution where God wanted it to go. And as we know, the crown of God's creation is Google.
The actual accounts would not support that interpretation. They are too different.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Surely, as a scholar, you must know Moses is not really the author. Unless he could write from beyond the grave.Quote:
Moses assembled them from the stories his people had handed down.
I always wondered about google - now I know.Quote:
The "days" are creative acts, guiding the course of evolution where God wanted it to go. And as we know, the crown of God's creation is Google.
Thanks for participating. See you next month.
Wow - that is fascinating! I never knew the details although I had heard the name Lilith over the years being connected to that old-time religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Fits right in to your theory of woman in the Bible. I also didn't know Samael was an archangel. My archangel knowledge was limited to Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael. Ummm - "coupled"? Is that like, ummm, "know" in the biblical sense? Must be - after all, it's in the Bible.
Did Sam and Lilly have any kids/little angels - little demons?
In Hebrew-language texts, the term lilith or lilit (translated as "night creatures", "night monster", "night hag", or "screech owl") first occurs in a list of animals in Isaiah 34,[10] either in singular or plural form according to variations in the earliest manuscripts. The Isaiah 34:14 Lilith reference does not appear in most common Bible translations such as KJV and NIV. Commentators and interpreters often envision the figure of Lilith as a dangerous demon of the night, who is sexually wanton, and who steals babies in the darkness. In the Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q510-511, the term first occurs in a list of monsters. Jewish magical inscriptions on bowls and amulets from the 6th century AD onwards identify Lilith as a female demon and provide the first visual depictions of her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Read the Wikipedia article on him to learn more. He was quite a cute guy!Quote:
Fits right in to your theory of woman in the Bible. I also didn't know Samael was an archangel.
One Wikipedia paragraph:
In the Greek Apocalypse of Baruch,[5] he is the dominant evil figure. Samael plants the Tree of knowledge, thereupon he is banished and cursed by God.[7]:257–60 To take revenge, he tempts Adam and Eve into sin by taking the form of the serpent.[5][6]
Yup, you nailed it!Quote:
Ummm - "coupled"? Is that like, ummm, "know" in the biblical sense? Must be - after all, it's in the Bible.
Sounds like a fun research project!Quote:
Did Sam and Lilly have any kids/little angels - little demons?
I clicked on the Adam and eve link and got this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Adam and Eve according to the creation myth of the Abrahamic religions,[1][2] were the first man and woman. They are central to the belief that humanity is in essence a single family, with everyone descended from a single pair of original ancestors.[3] They also provide the basis for the doctrines of the fall of man and original sin that are important beliefs in Christianity, although not held in Judaism or Islam.[4]
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Rubens_004.jpg
The Fall of Man by Peter Paul Rubens, 1628–29
In the Book of Genesis of the Hebrew Bible, chapters one through five, there are two creation narratives with two distinct perspectives. In the first, Adam and Eve are not named. Instead, God created humankind in God's image and instructed them to multiply and to be stewards over everything else that God had made. In the second narrative, God fashions Adam from dust and places him in the Garden of Eden. Adam is told that he can eat freely of all the trees in the garden, except for a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Subsequently, Eve is created from one of Adam's ribs to be his companion. They are innocent and unembarrassed about their nakedness. However, a serpent convinces Eve to eat fruit from the forbidden tree, and she gives some of the fruit to Adam. These acts give them additional knowledge, but it gives them the ability to conjure negative and destructive concepts such as shame and evil. God later curses the serpent and the ground. God prophetically tells the woman and the man what will be the consequences of their sin of disobeying God. Then he banishes them from the Garden of Eden.
The myth underwent extensive elaboration in later Abrahamic traditions, and it has been extensively analyzed by modern biblical scholars. Interpretations and beliefs regarding Adam and Eve and the story revolving around them vary across religions and sects; for example, the Islamic version of the story holds that Adam and Eve were equally responsible for their sins of hubris, instead of Eve being the first one to be unfaithful. The story of Adam and Eve is often depicted in art, and it has had an important influence in literature and poetry.
The story of the fall of Adam is often considered to be an allegory. Findings in population genetics, particularly those concerning Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve, indicate that a single first "Adam and Eve" pair of human beings never existed.
Last sentence - proof positive that the story is an allegory?
Makes sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
And, again, why did it take an all-powerful God six days to create everything?
Because that "all-powerful" God is part of the allegory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
1. If the Genesis creation account is to be seen as purely allegorical, what allegorical meaning is to be drawn from it?
2. Why could Moses not have been the author of all of the Pentateuch except for the end of the Deuteronomy account?
3. From an atheist's perspective, what do you gain from "getting rid" of Genesis? Don't you still have the enormous challenge of the literally dozens and dozens of NT scriptures which speak of wrath, judgment and hell? Compared to that, the flood is a nothing issue, isn't it?
4. If all of Genesis is fictional, then how do you replace the Abraham narrative which is central to Christian theology?
5. Why could the two Genesis creation accounts simply be seen as complementary?
6. Considering the supposed difficulties of the two creation narratives, why do you think some scribe in the many centuries before Christ didn't simply clean it up and do away with that supposed problem?
Easily found on google. Many interpretations - take your pick.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Maybe because he was dead? Plus the obvious answer all (most) scholars believe - that a famous name was used as author to make the account more credible. You should know this if you want to continue as some sort of expert on the literalness of the Bible.Quote:
2. Why could Moses not have been the author of all of the Pentateuch except for the end of the Deuteronomy account?
You would have to ask an atheist.Quote:
3. From an atheist's perspective, what do you gain from "getting rid" of Genesis?
You said it, not me. Look up the definitions of "fiction" and "allegorical". Then answer your own question.Quote:
4. If all of Genesis is fictional
Abraham is OK, but not the flood? Cherry-pick much?Quote:
then how do you replace the Abraham narrative which is central to Christian theology?
Because they're different.Quote:
5. Why could the two Genesis creation accounts simply be seen as complementary?
Because they're from different traditions.Quote:
6. Considering the supposed difficulties of the two creation narratives, why do you think some scribe in the many centuries before Christ didn't simply clean it up and do away with that supposed problem?
But I'm asking what yours is. Either you or WG.Quote:
Easily found on google. Many interpretations - take your pick.
Only at the end of Dt.Quote:
Maybe because he was dead?
You have data for that?Quote:
Plus the obvious answer all (most) scholars believe
Quote:
You said it, not me.
Actually, I didn't. I offered them as suppositions.Quote:
Abraham is OK, but not the flood? Cherry-pick much?
Isn't that how the concept of complementary works?Quote:
Because they're different.
I'm not sure there is any evidence for that, but even if there is, wouldn't they have seen the supposed discrepancies you claim to see and have viewed it as a serious problem?Quote:
Because they're from different traditions.
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Well, he certainly wasn't alive during the creation.Quote:
Only at the end of Dt.
Look it up - it's all over the internet. Surely you knew that.Quote:
You have data for that? (Moses' authorship)
Depends on the nature of the difference.Quote:
Isn't that how the concept of complementary works?
Plenty of evidence.Quote:
I'm not sure there is any evidence for that
I did not "claim" to see "discrepancies" - they are there in black and white for anyone who can read to see. Also, they have differences, not discrepancies - a nuanced understanding.Quote:
wouldn't they have seen the supposed discrepancies you claim to see
Obviously not, since they exist. Genesis was assembled over time and put together at different times. The latest and the version most of us are familiar with today was finalized during the Babylonian Exile. It's called the Priestly Tradition.Quote:
and have viewed it as a serious problem? (previous scribes)
1. You two say it is allegorical. It seems strange to me to claim something is an allegory, and yet have not idea what the moral meaning is. Oh well.
2. Most of the biographers of the lives of George Washington, Lincoln, King George, Martin Luther, the emperors of Rome, and generally all other figures of history were not alive when those events happen. It is simple history. The writer does not have to be alive when it happens
3. All over the internet? Sure it is.
4. "Depends on the difference." I'd agree with that.
5. "Plenty of evidence." I'm not saying there's not, but I am saying that I would need to see that evidence to believe your statement.
6. Discrepancies or differences, why didn't the scribes simply make the correction?
7. You have no idea how or when Genesis was put together. No one has a certain answer to that question.
This makes no sense. You're confusing yourself - not for the first time. You didn't answer the question of WHY do you want to know my (our) interpretation of Genesis?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
If no one was alive, how did "Moses" know?Quote:
2. Most of the biographers of the lives of George Washington, etc., etc., ......were not alive when those events happen. It is simple history. The writer does not have to be alive when it happens
This evasion of Jl refers to Moses' debatable authorship of the first five books of the OT. It certainly IS all over the internet. It's been a major topic for scholars since forever. Denying it doesn't cause it to go away.Quote:
3. All over the internet? Sure it is.
These are easy questions to research and answer. Jl is just playing the troll to cast confusion - a trick he does well.Quote:
5. "Plenty of evidence." I'm not saying there's not, but I am saying that I would need to see that evidence to believe your statement.
6. Discrepancies or differences, why didn't the scribes simply make the correction?
7. You have no idea how or when Genesis was put together. No one has a certain answer to that question.
The answers are accessible via that great library we all have at out fingertips - the internet. If Jl is willing to spend the necessary time reading, he can get all the answers he wants verified by scholars and those who have undertaken the examination of the Bible over the years.
But that's not what Jl wants. He wants to muddle the discussion by demanding long and complex ideas in the space of a Q&A forum. He thinks that gives him the upper hand.
1. You believe it was an allegory but you don't know the moral message? Hmmm.
2. Read the story of Moses. Read about how he met daily with God. What do you suppose they talked about?
3. It's so all over the internet that you can't post a single instance.
4. I don't do research to verify your questionable assertions. That's your job. In fact I would suggest to you or anyone to not post assertions for which you have no support. Have that support ahead of time.
I think I understand our problem. I know what my authority is. It is the Bible. Now you don't accept that, and that's fine. It's your privilege. But I do wonder what your authority is. In other words, what has the right to disagree with you and yet be accepted by you. Athos believes A, but his authority says B, so Athos accepts B. Other than your own opinion, what is your authority?
Great statement of truth by Augustine.
“If you believe what you like in the Gospel, and reject what you don't like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself.”
Well, we'll do this again. It's about the fifth time. It's by no means an exhaustive list, but it's certainly far more than sufficient. Sufficient, that is, for those who accept the NT.Quote:
Here's more of the same !!!! Don't you love it? This is his spewing Bible verses that he offers as proof. Note that this particular verse never mentions a thing about hell and/or eternal punishment. To "die in your sins" seems pretty final.
- Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
- Matthew 5:22. “But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.”
- Matthew 8:11,12. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
- Matthew 10:28. “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
- Matthew 13:30. (This is the conclusion of the parable of the wheat and tares.) “Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.”
- Matthew 13:49,50. “This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
- Matthew 18:8. “It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.”
- Matt. 25:31-48. This lengthy passage clearly sets forth the existence of a fiery hell. The people sent to hell were judged, not for what they did, but for what the neglected to do. The inference is that Christ was not Lord.
- Mark 8:38. “If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
- Luke 3:17. “His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
- Luke 13:2. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
- Luke 16:19ff. “In Hades, where he (the rich man) was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’”
- Acts 24:15. “and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” Again, not a reference to hell, but the teaching of a resurrection “of both the righteous and the wicked,” would certainly agree with such a reference.
- Colossians 3:5,6. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.
- 1 Thessalonians 1:10. “Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.”
- 1 Thessalonians 5:9. “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
- 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10. “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our LORD Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the LORD and from the glory of his might…”
- 2 Peter 2:4ff. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment… if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.
- Jude 7. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
- Rev. 20:11ff. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
- Psalm 21:8-9. You will capture all your enemies. Your strong right hand will seize all who hate you. You will throw them in a flaming furnace when you appear. The LORD will consume them in his anger; fire will devour them.
The following scriptures show God as the one who is coming to judge the earth.
- Hebrews 9:27. “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment…” Another reference to a coming day of judgement.
- 2 Corinthians 5:10,19,20. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 19 God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.2 Timothy 4:1. I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
- Hebrews 6:2. Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of…the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
- Rev. 1:18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
- 1 Peter 1:17. Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.
- 1 Peter 4:5. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
- Genesis 18:25. Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?”
- Hebrews 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
- John 8:24 “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” What a powerful statement concerning the necessity of faith in Christ.
- Acts 24:25. “As Paul talked about righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid…” This text is not a reference to hell itself but does point out the coming judgement of which everyone should be aware.
- Rev. 20:11ff. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
- Matthew 12:36. But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Where did you get that from? I didn't say a word about the moral message. Bad habit - putting words in the mouth of others. Will you ever learn?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Now you're saying God briefed Moses daily on the creation. How did God explain two differing accounts of creation? Or did Moses make that up?Quote:
2. Read the story of Moses. Read about how he met daily with God. What do you suppose they talked about?
It would be much more fruitful for you to read it yourself. You'll get much more out of it.Quote:
3. It's so all over the internet that you can't post a single instance.
Your choice, your loss.Quote:
4. I don't do research to verify your questionable assertions.
No, it's your job, if you really want to know. If you're just trolling, then never mind.Quote:
That's your job.
You're wrong. Assertions may have posted support or not - depends on the complexity and length of what is being asserted. Sometimes unposted support can be provided by a link, but you have already declared your refusal to learn that way. Other times assertions come from sources that can't be posted. For instance, you claimed to be a school principal, but you never posted support for your assertion.Quote:
In fact I would suggest to you or anyone to not post assertions for which you have no support.
Let's go even deeper. HOW have you come to accept the authority of the Bible? You did it by reading, listening, maybe home life, church, considering, thinking, and all the ways humans arrive at decisions. So your ACTUAL authority is rooted in your mind/brain/intellect/experiences. So is mine.Quote:
I think I understand our problem. I know what my authority is. It is the Bible. Now you don't accept that, and that's fine. It's your privilege. But I do wonder what your authority is.
Here's the difference. For whatever reason, you stopped the thought process by accepting the literalness of the Bible. Most Christians did NOT stop there. They continued to read, think, experience, analyze, and consider as they grew in age, wisdom and faith.
This is very apparent when you are unable to explain WHY you believe except to say "The Bible told me so". We see this from you all the time when you offer Bible verses instead of your own well-thought-out responses using your God-given mind.
I don't think I understand this. A concrete example would help.Quote:
In other words, what has the right to disagree with you and yet be accepted by you. Athos believes A, but his authority says B, so Athos accepts B.
Think about that. What other opinion could there be except one's mind, intellect, brain - aka, "opinion" in the strict sense?Quote:
Other than your own opinion, what is your authority?
You do the same thing. But you have decided (using your mental faculties) to stop the process by placing the Bible as written in front of your brain. I haven't. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US - THE PROBLEM, AS YOU PUT IT.
I see you've posted some Bible verses. I'll get to it. But first, I need a break.
1. Allegories have moral meanings. Simple concept.
2. You make assertions...you back them up. Your job. I have no intention of going down some endless rabbit trail.
3. First answer the question. What is your source of authority?
4. An example? Well, I believe that God is all love, but then I read that He is also a God of justice, so I must adjust my thinking.
5. What other opinion could there be except one's mind? Really? You think there is no opinion other than your own? Wow. There is a vast difference between using mental faculties and judging one's own opinions to be the sum of knowledge. Perhaps I misunderstood you.
Yes. A break would be good. Tomorrow.
Allegory does not mean the same thing as moral. Couldn't be simpler. Again, look the words up.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You must have missed this.Quote:
2. You make assertions...you back them up. Your job.
Assertions may have posted support or not - depends on the complexity and length of what is being asserted. Sometimes unposted support can be provided by a link, but you have already declared your refusal to learn that way. Other times assertions come from sources that can't be posted. For instance, you claimed to be a school principal, but you never posted support for your assertion. [/QUOTE]
What you are REALLY saying is, "I don't want answers that I don't like". None of us do, but grown-ups learn to face facts.Quote:
I have no intention of going down some endless rabbit trail.
Did you miss this one, too?Quote:
3. First answer the question. What is your source of authority?
Let's go even deeper. HOW have you come to accept the authority of the Bible? You did it by reading, listening, maybe home life, church, considering, thinking, and all the ways humans arrive at decisions. So your ACTUAL authority is rooted in your mind/brain/intellect/experiences. So is mine.
Here's the difference. For whatever reason, you stopped the thought process by accepting the literalness of the Bible. Most Christians did NOT stop there. They continued to read, think, experience, analyze, and consider as they grew in age, wisdom and faith.
This is very apparent when you are unable to explain WHY you believe except to say "The Bible told me so". We see this from you all the time when you offer Bible verses instead of your own well-thought-out responses using your God-given mind.
If you're not going to read what I write, this whole exercise becomes pointless.
You did not continue to believe what you had believed. In your own words, you made an ADJUSTMENT.Quote:
4. An example? Well, I believe that God is all love, but then I read that He is also a God of justice, so I must adjust my thinking.
NO, no, no. There is no opinion IN MY MIND other than the opinion that is there. Can there be other opinions outside my mind? Of course, there can. If I believe one of those, then THAT opinion becomes the one IN MY MIND. The simplest things can sometimes be hard to explain.Quote:
5. What other opinion could there be except one's mind? Really? You think there is no opinion other than your own?
You sure did. Let me try to put it another way. I believe whatever it is that my mind has led me to believe. It can't possibly be otherwise. Can I change (ADJUST!) my belief? Of course, I can. It is still my mind that has led me to my new belief.Quote:
Perhaps I misunderstood you.
This is what I hate about these discussions. When your allegory has no moral, then you deny that allegories have morals. Incredible. "a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one." If that is not true, then what on earth is the purpose of an allegory?????
Utter nonsense. Try that in a court of law. "Your Honor, the defendant is innocent because my mind/brain/intellect/experiences say so." You'd be thrown out in two seconds. It's that we realize that our own views can frequently be wrong due to a lack of knowledge that we appeal to higher sources. You admit it above when you say I should be doing research to back up your assertions. It's an obvious admission that we are all subject to error. Good grief. Even worse, you are saying that your source of authority is...Athos!Quote:
Let's go even deeper. HOW have you come to accept the authority of the Bible? You did it by reading, listening, maybe home life, church, considering, thinking, and all the ways humans arrive at decisions. So your ACTUAL authority is rooted in your mind/brain/intellect/experiences. So is mine.
True enough. That being the case, you appeal to something other than your own powers of reasoning in your search for truth.Quote:
You sure did. Let me try to put it another way. I believe whatever it is that my mind has led me to believe. It can't possibly be otherwise. Can I change (ADJUST!) my belief? Of course, I can. It is still my mind that has led me to my new belief.
So aside from your own ideas, is there anything outside of you that can settle an argument?
Exactly. And why? Because I was confronted with that which is higher than I am.Quote:
You did not continue to believe what you had believed. In your own words, you made an ADJUSTMENT.
What then is the moral* of (I'd use the words "overriding or bigger truth in") the Creation allegory in Genesis 1?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
*a lesson, especially one concerning what is right or prudent, that can be derived from a story, a piece of information, or an experience.
I don't see it as an allegory, so that question does not apply to my position, but it does to yours. Can you answer it?
And having asked that, I already suspect a forthright answer will not be forthcoming, but hopefully I am wrong.
This wondrous universe, including every non-living and living thing, was created by our loving God in six days -- or maybe in six minutes or maybe even in only six seconds. The method and length of time don't matter. All that matters is that He created because He's a God of unconditional Love.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Why does it have to be an allegory to get that meaning?
Would you also say that man chooses to fall prey to temptation and thus is a sinner by nature?
BTW, thank you for the wonderfully straightforward answer!!
What really happened? We don't know, so we tell a story, create an allegory to explain to others who did what, when, how, and why (implied).Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I sin daily. Do you?Quote:
Would you also say that man chooses to fall prey to temptation and thus is a sinner by nature?
Why do you say we don't know?Quote:
What really happened? We don't know,
Sin daily? Why, I NEVER sin!! (sarcastic in the extreme)
WG: What really happened? We don't know,
Tell me! Tell me! What really happened???Quote:
jlisenbe: Why do you say we don't know?
What it says.
No. what REALLY happened!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
What it says.
I wouldn't create that way. Certainly God wouldn't either. Plus, the story is an allegory, written by a human.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I wouldn't have done it that way either, but then you and I are both titanically stupid and ignorant compared to Him, so maybe He knows better than us? Just possible???
Nope, He told me that wasn't how it got done. He had (and still uses) a more interesting method.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The REAL question is WHY did He create anything.
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