What the states are doing to move from fossil fuel energy to renewables is a fantasy? Really? Obviously they don't think so. No matter where your political sentiments lie, the transition is under way and has been for a while now. I doubt we go back.

No. I'm saying that the idea that we can get a steady, cheap flow of energy from wind and solar is a fantasy. What do you do when the wind is not blowing and the sun is not shining? Think of it as though you have a car that only runs half the time. What good would that be?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

No. I'm saying that the idea that we can get a steady, cheap flow of energy from wind and solar is a fantasy. What do you do when the wind is not blowing and the sun is not shining? Think of it as though you have a car that only runs half the time. What good would that be?

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There are batteries but a polluting technology anyway, the problem is the greenies have painted us all into a corner by objecting to various technologies for many reasons, halting real progress

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Originally Posted by paraclete

There are batteries but a polluting technology anyway, the problem is the greenies have painted us all into a corner by objecting to various technologies for many reasons, halting real progress

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Feel free to elaborate if you can.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Feel free to elaborate if you can.

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They have demonised Coal, they have demonised Oil, they have demonised transporting Oil, they have demonised exploration, why haven't they demonised lithium production, very polluting? Why haven't they demonised silicon production, very polluting, they have demonised CO2 without realising that it is all that is preventing the next ice age, when they will be happy to be warmed by coal

Please elaborate on this high pollution lithium and silicon production. Is it more polluting than refineries and steel mills? Is the risk of global warming more likely than the coming ice age?

how do you figure they extract that rare mineral out of the ground ? How are you going to extract it without steel production to make the equipment , and fuel to power the heavy equipment to extract the lithium ? Geeze you don't get it yet that solar and beanie and cesil propeller caps can't fuel a 21st century economy ?

How do you figure we have a 21st century economy yet when we still are using 20th century thinking? My questions were to pin down the assertions Clete was making. By your statement though you obviously think that we will be stuck in the last century for most of this century. I think we can forge ahead at a quicker pace myself.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

How do you figure we have a 21st century economy yet when we still are using 20th century thinking? My questions were to pin down the assertions Clete was making. By your statement though you obviously think that we will be stuck in the last century for most of this century. I think we can forge ahead at a quicker pace myself.

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Tal, for example to refine silicon you need charcoal which is created by burning wood in large quantities so there is no advantage as far as CO2 is concerned. Lithium pollutes the ground as well as needing equipment, etc, created in industries which are themselves polluting as Tom indicated. Renewables are premised in the idea you don't Have to count certain costs but they are a zero sum gain overall. If you want energy without CO2 the best option is nuclear but you need to effectively deal with the waste

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If you want energy without CO2 the best option is nuclear but you need to effectively deal with the waste

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Well stated, except that I would say nuclear is the only realistic option. Solar and wind would not exist at all without fed subsidies.

We don't use wood anymore, LOL, we invented electric arc furnaces quite a while back. You are correct though about nuclear but did you know nuclear waste can be used as fuel?

https://whatisnuclear.com/recycling.html

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Originally Posted by talaniman

We don't use wood anymore, LOL, we invented electric arc furnaces quite a while back. You are correct though about nuclear but did you know nuclear waste can be used as fuel?

https://whatisnuclear.com/recycling.html

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Yes we have almost solved the nuclear waste problem but remember that the energy has to come from somewhere, you don't get it for nothing

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f you want energy without CO2 the best option is nuclear but you need to effectively deal with the waste

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Yes we have almost solved the nuclear waste problem

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Theoretically fast breeder reactors recycle spent waste . The world has been pretty much scared off from investing in nuclear technology . I for one believe the next generation of power will be fusion ;and that is where investments should be made .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Theoretically fast breeder reactors recycle spent waste . The world has been pretty much scared off from investing in nuclear technology . I for one believe the next generation of power will be fusion ;and that is where investments should be made .

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How do you invest in something that doesn't exist

Don't be so sure of that Clete

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/0...jct-still.html

Clete ,electic generation was a technology that did not exist in the 19th century . Nuclear power did not exist beyond concept until the 1940s . It took investment to make those realized. We won't be around to see it fully realized. But fusion power will happen . https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielco.../#7d68a9789bb4

It took investments and time, and a few failures along the way.

Breeder reactors are least a few decades away for widespread use. Wind and solar are bad jokes. Nuclear would work but we are too afraid of it, so it would seem we are left with fossil fuels.

Yes, that is the opinion of some