why does the argument between you two always come down to abortion, are you obsessed with the subject? Obviously one of you is opposed to it and the other for it and the lines are blurred

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the lines are blurred

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The lines are clear, but yes, WG is for abortion and I oppose it. That part is certainly correct.

"how you hate that misbegotten mass of cells growing inside you." For a professing Christian to refer to human life in those terms is just beyond incredible.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The lines are clear, but yes, WG is for abortion and I oppose it. That part is certainly correct.

"how you hate that misbegotten mass of cells growing inside you." For a professing Christian to refer to human life in those terms is just beyond incredible.

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I disagree with abortion, but counseling at Catholic Charities opened my mind and taught me there are many variations to each pregnant woman's story.

Get pregnant, JL. Then we'll talk. You have NO clue.

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there are many variations to each pregnant woman's story.

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Certainly there are, just like there are many variations to each woman's story who has a born child, but I would never suggest that killing the child is an acceptable solution, and I would hope I would never refer to any child as a hated, "misbegotten mass of cells".

There are many things in life you don't have to personally experience to know the rightness or wrongness of it. I've never had a relative murdered, but how foolish it would be for me to suggest that I have "NO clue" about that, or about cancer, or a painful injury, or divorce. I have not experienced those things. but I'm not going to say, "Well, I really have no opinion on cancer since, after all, I've never had that disease."

Why do you disagree with abortion? And as soon as I ask that question, I know you will not answer it.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Certainly there are, just like there are many variations to each woman's story who has a born child, but I would never suggest that killing the child is an acceptable solution, and I would hope I would never refer to any child as a hated, "misbegotten mass of cells".

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What about all those kids separated from their families, thrown into cages, starved, and otherwise abused? Killing those born children was an acceptable solution?

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There are many things in life you don't have to personally experience to know the rightness or wrongness of it. I've never had a relative murdered, but how foolish it would be for me to suggest that I have "NO clue" about that, or about cancer, or a painful injury, or divorce. I have not experienced those things. but I'm not going to say, "Well, I really have no opinion on cancer since, after all, I've never had that disease."

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I have an idea! How about borrowing my aplastic anemia for nine months!

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Why do you disagree with abortion? And as soon as I ask that question, I know you will not answer it.

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If you're going to smart-off to me, nope, I won't answer. Be nice and ask me again.

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What about all those kids separated from their families, thrown into cages, starved, and otherwise abused? Killing those children wasn't an acceptable solution?

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Of course it was not, if indeed it ever happened.

Why do you disagree with abortion?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Of course it was not, if indeed it ever happened.

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Bwahahahahaha!!! There's your out -- "if indeed it ever happened"! Do you know anyone who's ever had an abortion? Ah! I didn't think so. Maybe it never happened.

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Why do you disagree with abortion?

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I'll answer your very respectfully stated question tomorrow. Bedtime now.

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Do you know anyone who's ever had an abortion? Ah! I didn't think so. Maybe it never happened.

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I know two. They both regret it deeply.

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Bwahahahahaha!!! There's your out.

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I have no idea what your point is. I do not support the killing of children, born or unborn. You do with the unborn, or as you describe it, "you hate that misbegotten mass of cells growing inside you."

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I disagree with abortion, but counseling at Catholic Charities opened my mind and taught me there are many variations to each pregnant woman's story.

Get pregnant, JL. Then we'll talk. You have NO clue.

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so you are both opposed to abortion why then the argy bargy. Abortion is morally indefensible, the long term effect on the woman is well known, it is just the hardness of heart that destroys the unborn

The real question is what do you intend to do about the choices that others make? Like this virus is forcing a choice, disrupt the economy, or ignore the sick and dying going on. What's the moral choice here? Is it morally right for a president to foist a medical opinion on a drug that has not been proven effective against this pandemic? Just couldn't go by the scientific protocols for such a proclamation.

You want to make a moral choice, then deal with the responsibility that comes with it.

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so you are both opposed to abortion

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We are?

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The real question is what do you intend to do about the choices that others make? Like this virus is forcing a choice, disrupt the economy, or ignore the sick and dying going on.

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That is a false choice . It is not either /or . You are creating greater health risks by leaving the economy closed . And clearly we can care for the sick ,protect the most vulnerable and still keep the country open . When we did not know enough about the virus it was a legitimate concern that the health care system could be overwhelmed by the sick . That is no longer the case . The goal was 'flatten the curve ' and that has been achieved . So there is no more legitimate reasons for a shutdown except to stroke the egos of governors and local yokel tin pot dictators Guidelines have been and are being established for an open economy with reasonable health protections . The virus has and will continue to go through the population until herd immunity is established with or without a vaccine .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

That is a false choice . It is not either /or . You are creating greater health risks by leaving the economy closed . And clearly we can care for the sick ,protect the most vulnerable and still keep the country open . When we did not know enough about the virus it was a legitimate concern that the health care system could be overwhelmed by the sick . That is no longer the case . The goal was 'flatten the curve ' and that has been achieved . So there is no more legitimate reasons for a shutdown except to stroke the egos of governors and local yokel tin pot dictators Guidelines have been and are being established for an open economy with reasonable health protections . The virus has and will continue to go through the population until herd immunity is established with or without a vaccine .

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Tom there is no such thing as herd immunity, it is a myth. The only way you might become immune, it is thus far unproven, is if you contract the virus. Shut down is not a good philosophy, but it has protected some individuals, for the first time in a long time money hasn't ruled

The day will come when people have to pay for all of this. There are no money trees growing behind the Congress, so the bill is going to come due at some point. One of these days we will have to pay for what we want, and also pay for what we wanted over the past few decades. This is heaven right now for pols who get to pass out money without worrying about taxes, but it will be hell when we find that we can no longer borrow money hand over fist.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

That is a false choice . It is not either /or . You are creating greater health risks by leaving the economy closed . And clearly we can care for the sick ,protect the most vulnerable and still keep the country open . When we did not know enough about the virus it was a legitimate concern that the health care system could be overwhelmed by the sick . That is no longer the case . The goal was 'flatten the curve ' and that has been achieved . So there is no more legitimate reasons for a shutdown except to stroke the egos of governors and local yokel tin pot dictators Guidelines have been and are being established for an open economy with reasonable health protections . The virus has and will continue to go through the population until herd immunity is established with or without a vaccine .

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Of course you're only speaking of NY, and where the virus first struck, but as it spreads and the locals as in Alabama start catching more cases, their systems are being overloaded as we speak. We still must adjust to these waves as we are trying to reopen, which no doubt will cause the rise in sicknesses and illnesses as people are desperate for rent money, stalled in trickle down malaise.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I have no idea what your point is. I do not support the killing of children, born or unborn. You do with the unborn, or as you describe it, "you hate that misbegotten mass of cells growing inside you."

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The "you" refers to YOU, JL. I had said:

"[understood subject is YOU] Get pregnant, preferably by a rapist or your uncle or an abusive spouse. Tell me all about it, how you hate that misbegotten mass of cells growing inside you. Oh, that's right. You can't get pregnant. Your part is finished in less than five minutes, you smile, then walk away.

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Tom there is no such thing as herd immunity,

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Then why is there no more small pox pandemics ?Then why did the SARS COV 1 of 2003 pandemic disappear ? It was much more lethal than C-19

Once enough of the population gets exposed through vaccines or previous infection then the rest of the population gets indirect protection . That is an undisputable scientific fact . The measles is highly contagious and herd immunity is not achieved until 95% is immune . But it still was achieved by vaccination . If C-19 mutates like the flu then we can not achieve herd immunity ... what then ? Shut down the word economy forever ? If it doesn't mutate then since it is not as contagious as the measles ,we are looking at probably 60% exposure before herd immunity .

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for the first time in a long time money hasn't ruled

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I can't believe your disconnect . Money will be of paramount importance when the bills come due .

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The day will come when people have to pay for all of this. There are no money trees growing behind the Congress, so the bill is going to come due at some point. One of these days we will have to pay for what we want, and also pay for what we wanted over the past few decades. This is heaven right now for pols who get to pass out money without worrying about taxes, but it will be hell when we find that we can no longer borrow money hand over fist.

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What he said .

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The "you" refers to YOU, JL. I had said:

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You were speaking for yourself, as well you should. I've never made such a sickening assertion.

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for the first time in a long time money hasn't ruled

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I thought that was a strange statement as well.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You were speaking for yourself, as well you should. I've never made such a sickening assertion.

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No, I wasn't, JL! And I never said you said that. If I had been speaking for myself, I would have used "I" and "me," not "you." Plus, this part is definitely directed toward you: "Oh, that's right. You can't get pregnant. Your part is finished in less than five minutes, you smile, then walk away."

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And I never said you said that. If I had been speaking for myself, I would have used "I" and "me," not "you."

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Then who on earth were you referring to?

Even at that, to use this as a description of an unborn child is really chilling. "you hate that misbegotten mass of cells growing inside you." I don't think you actually see it that way, or at least I certainly hope not.

Still waiting for the promised explanation of why you "disagree" with abortion.

As to my "part" being finished in less than five minutes, my "part" is still going on, and our children are all over thirty years old. You are greatly mistaken, and seem to be greatly prejudiced against men. My amazing wife and I raised our children as a team.