All right, so the show is 'Gotham'. A mafioso type character who has the mayor, city council, and police department in his pocket is talking with a police detective about how he framed this random person for a crime so the public would see swift justice being done by the police department. The detective asks the mafia don why making the police department look good is so important to him. The don responds with "I'm a businessman. You can't have organized crime without law and order". What does this quote mean? And what's the significance of him saying he's a businessman at the beginning? If there is none it just seems kind of random

Then a few episodes later, the detective tries to arrest the don and they have another exchange of dialogue. The don says to the detective "One day you'll see I'm right. You'll see I'm not the enemy...the system isn't the enemy...the enemy is anarchy. I told you that before but you didn't listen." So why would a lack in the mafia's involvement in the city government/system mean that that system will be completely destroyed and anarchy will happen? He's implying that the only type of government is a corrupt one but I don't get how that's possible

Here's one of the scenes (sadly can't find the other one on youtube)

around the 1:00 mark - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-ykoaoe3i8

A 'good' police image is good for crime because it's then easier to pay them off. Less internal investigation and less public outcry.
Crime is his business, just in the guise of legit businesses. Business is his crime, crime is his business.
The nature of organized crime is that it gets into every aspect of legit society, from government, justice (law), and cops (order), to small business, sports, all the way to money laundering charities for widows and orphans.

The later bit about anarchy is more surreal and philosophical than reality. The don is claiming that organized crime is part and parcel of law and order, of a society that works, vs. random crime, roving bands of thugs and highwaymen lopping off heads for fun and robbery, without any regard to family and those iconic widows and orphans. It's a scene meant to provoke thought, I'm guessing. Which do we want, which is 'better' for society? Free for all good and evil, or organization, even if good organization if riddled with evil? It's the cornerstone of protection rackets. I'm here to protect you and you are going to pay me to do so (or sell my booze, or whatever) whether you like it or not, because if you don't, I'll kill you. It's how it starts - someone gets known for helping the helpless in the neighborhood, and he bashes some heads to help the helpless, and before you know it, he's a crime syndicate.

Thanks for your answer. I understand a little better but when you say "crime is his business, just in the guise of a legit business" what exactly do you mean? And I understand when you say organized crime gets into cops (aka order) because they just pay them off but what do you mean when you say they get into justice (aka law)? That just seems a bit vague to me. And finally, it seems like they're trying to imply you can either be anarchy (criminals running around doing whatever they want) or an organization (where a select few of the criminals control the organization and the others are punished for their crimes). Why would it not be possible to have an organization that isn't controlled by criminals and all criminals are punished?

And something I forgot to add in my question is in another episode, the same don character mentions he's losing his grip on the city and it's coming closer to anarchy. How does him not being as influential as he once was lead to criminals running rampant? And what would have stopped those said criminals from doing the things they're doing when the don was still in power? The police still exist regardless of how powerful the don is. I don't get why he thinks law and order and organized crime can't exist without each other

On second part... losing his grip means losing his control (basically keeping the 2 bit players away out of fear what WILL happen to them) vs the situation he can't back up what he threatens half the time meaning other 2 bit thugs operate and expand unopposed by him much of the time. All gangs operate by controlling turf and having exclusive control (google up Bloods vs Crips violence to get an example).

Lot of people misuse the Term Mafia... like calling copiers Xerox machines... Mafia is actually what is known as the Cosa Nostra (Sicily), and are separate entities from the Comorra (Campagnia), the 'Ndrangheta (Calabria) or Sacra Corona Unita (Puglia).

Spend enough time in a country and you learn a lot of things about it.

subnote....I sat across the isle on a plane from Giovani Falcone and briefly talked with him a month before they blew him up along with much of his motorcade. Yeah I knew who he was when he got on before he sat down across from me.

Lets also put it in perspective of it being a movie, whose goal is to grip you with emotions and endear you to the characters be they good guys or bad. Expect flowery, flowing words that challenge the mind, and heart and make the characters real so you can love, hate, and identify with, and keep coming back for more.

A drama about the complexity of good and evil, and the long and many conflicts, where good guys can be bad and do bad things, and the bad guys can do good things. It's characterization done by professionals, down to the sets, lighting, and effects.

Yes it does mirror real life in many ways, and again it doesn't, but that's what hooks us to the shows we like. The best escape and distraction from reality there is.

'when you say "crime is his business, just in the guise of a legit business" what exactly do you mean?' -- I mean all organized crime maintains 'legit' businesses as fronts.
'what do you mean when you say they get into justice (aka law)?' --- They bribe judges and lawyers the same way as cops.
'Why would it not be possible to have an organization that isn't controlled by criminals and all criminals are punished?' -- In theory it could. It just almost never does, except in small towns and tiny countries or societies such as jungle tribes.
'How does him not being as influential as he once was lead to criminals running rampant?' -- Because they cower in fear of stepping on his toes! Unless there are other organized crime groups waiting to take over, which there almost always are.
'And what would have stopped those said criminals from doing the things they're doing when the don was still in power?' --- Organized crime and petty crime (except for very local drug dealers) don't overlap.
'The police still exist regardless of how powerful the don is. I don't get why he thinks law and order and organized crime can't exist without each other.' --- I tried to cover some of that concept earlier. It would take all day to answer it. I'll just say that he's referring to really well organized organized crime, the cream of the crime crop. He's not entirely right, I say. Crime needs to buy so many cops and judges and politicians that the profit margin gets razor thin sometimes. Law and order only 'needs' organized crime to steam roll right over the petty criminals who get in the way - and to get a very lucrative second paycheck. Sometimes they ask the mob to beat someone up when they can't.

Thanks for replying again. All right, so in summary, petty criminals (murderers, rapists, arsonists, thieves, etc.) don't commit crimes while there's organized crime because if they do, the mob will either directly punish them or through the police, who they've paid off. And the mob spends a lot of money paying off politicians and lawyers that their profit margin (which, do you mean money they earn from their illegal activities or metaphorical benefit of some sort?) amounts to barely anything. And police don't do anything about organized crime because they're getting money from these mobsters... but that kind of begs the question, what if there were no mobs to pay off the police, would the police just not exist and cause anarchy (petty criminals committing crimes without punishment) like they're implying? Also, you say petty criminals don't commit crimes because they're afraid of stepping on the don's toes...how do you know it's his toes they're stepping on? They could be targeting someone that isn't in the mob. But this doesn't apply to other organized crime families/groups? Just trying to make sure I understand this.

Also, one more thing for anyone to answer, in that video I linked above when the don says to the detective "Gotham is on a knife edge. What do you suppose bringing down city hall and the police force will do? Will it make things better?" Then the detective goes from having a smug expression to some sort of realization as if he thinks the don made some sort of point. To me, it seems like the answer would obviously be "yes" why would getting rid of organized crime and keeping the police department clean, albeit rare, be a bad thing? Or maybe I just don't understand the benefits of keeping organized crime around like these two characters do

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Originally Posted by Allen Farber

Thanks for replying again. All right, so in summary, petty criminals (murderers, rapists, arsonists, thieves, etc.) don't commit crimes while there's organized crime because if they do, the mob will either directly punish them or through the police, who they've paid off. And the mob spends a lot of money paying off politicians and lawyers that their profit margin (which, do you mean money they earn from their illegal activities or metaphorical benefit of some sort?) amounts to barely anything. And police don't do anything about organized crime because they're getting money from these mobsters... but that kind of begs the question, what if there were no mobs to pay off the police, would the police just not exist and cause anarchy (petty criminals committing crimes without punishment) like they're implying? Also, you say petty criminals don't commit crimes because they're afraid of stepping on the don's toes... how do you know it's his toes they're stepping on? They could be targeting someone that isn't in the mob. But this doesn't apply to other organized crime families/groups? Just trying to make sure I understand this.

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Criminals are a cowardly lot* and they will commit crimes just because they think they can get away with it, or have no choice, or they are just CRIMINALS and that's what they do. Consequences never matter with them be it justice by cop, or crime boss, or another criminal. Crazy right? They also make their own rules of behavior, and LOGIC, which works for them, as crazy as that is to anyone else. They will say anything to that end.

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Also, one more thing for anyone to answer, in that video I linked above when the don says to the detective "Gotham is on a knife edge. What do you suppose bringing down city hall and the police force will do? Will it make things better?" Then the detective goes from having a smug expression to some sort of realization as if he thinks the don made some sort of point. To me, it seems like the answer would obviously be "yes" why would getting rid of organized crime and keeping the police department clean, albeit rare, be a bad thing? Or maybe I just don't understand the benefits of keeping organized crime around like these two characters do

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NEVER, ever, try to make sense of the criminal mind or how it works, it will drive you nuts and not meant to be understood, just justify what they do so they are in a better light. Not all cops, officials are corrupt, but they all cover their own a$$ to stay out of jail and make a few bucks on the side. TV/Movie characters are subjects of the writers mind that wrote them. In real life though, it's not that easy to convict these crime bosses because they make sure they don't get caught and hide behind their willing sycophants taking the rap, and smart fancy high priced lawyers, and a tight criminal organization.

There is no benefit for keeping criminal predators around except for them, and the people who work for them. Anybody can be corrupted by power, money, and influence, and its really hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Heck some of us can't tell fantasy from reality half the time!

*A quote from Batman comics when Bruce Wayne donned the scary mask!

"Not all cops, officials are corrupt, but they all cover their own a$$ to stay out of jail and make a few bucks on the side" But isn't evading jail (assuming they've done something wrong) and accepting bribes/money both things that would make cops and officials corrupt?

I'm getting a bit weary because you have a way of extrapolating from what I say in a way that I wouldn't.
'petty criminals... don't commit crimes while there's organized crime because if they do, the mob will either directly punish them or through the police'... I didn't say that. It's a matter of degree, and of type of crime, and size of city, and so on. Please don't be so eager to paint every concept as either/or. Most petty criminals don't have a brain, or if they do, they don't think in terms of consequences. They are vain and are sure they will get away with any crime.
'And the mob spends a lot of money paying off politicians and lawyers that their profit margin (which, do you mean money they earn from their illegal activities or metaphorical benefit of some sort?) amounts to barely anything.' --- ONLY SOMETIMES!!! Not usually. And I mean real money.
'..if there were no mobs to pay off the police, would the police just not exist...' no, police would still exist
'and cause anarchy...like they're implying?' not true either, but it's part of the mob rationale
'Also, you say petty criminals don't commit crimes because they're afraid of stepping on the don's toes...how do you know it's his toes they're stepping on?' --- By 'his toes' I mean his and all his organization's toes. Like I said, petty criminals don't think. When they get into the mob's territory, they get a warning, or get beaten up, or killed.
'They could be targeting someone that isn't in the mob. But this doesn't apply to other organized crime families/groups?' --- It can apply to anyone

I get you up until the part about petty criminals on organized crime's territory. What I was asking is what if it isn't a mobster that these petty criminals target... why would the mob care about what happens to some random innocent citizens?

They don't! Mobsters are but a part of the criminal element, and there are also gangs that claim territory, and compete with other gangs. There are many levels of criminal activities. Mot criminals shun the heat of scrutiny and attention, and avoid it. Most high level mobsters/gangsters and bosses distance themselves from their criminal activities by using flunkies to do the dirty work for them. This insulates them from prosecution to a large degree, and allows them to move about as legitimate "business" but make no mistake what they care about is their ill gotten gains and not the victims.

It should be noted also that those lower level flunkies are ill trained to function in society honestly, and go back and forth through the prison system plying the often only trade they know, and can be employed at. Whether a part of an organization, or independent of one.

Sorry to bring this back up again but I’m still confused. He says that there’s no organized crime without law and order. Why would getting rid of law and order also get rid of organized crime? It would be easier for them to operate and make a bigger profit if they didn’t have any police or government officials to pay off.

But they do have law and order because there are criminals. That's just a reality no matter how a criminal justifies his criminal behavior or wraps it in the deceptive flair of doing good himself. This is the context of a DRAMA TV show based on the Batman theme. It's merely characterization to humanize the characters so viewers can relate. Obviously they have struck a chord with you and you are taking this fiction as being real so it must have worked.

Even in a fictionalized universe, things need to be reasonable or plausible (well they don't need to be but they should, especially when it's supposed to be set in real life)... and I know there's law and order in the city. But the don is saying that organized crime is only able to exist if law and order exists. So I'm saying, hypothetically speaking, if there was no law and order why wouldn't organized crime be able to operate anymore?

The don is a typical lying criminal. Find anyplace where there is little laws and you will see crime thriving very well with no checks available. Did I not say that humans, criminal or not will do and say anything to justify what they are doing to escape consequences for their actions. Not everyone falls for their line of crap, they know that too, but there are enough that do so they spew the line to elevate their own elegance to separate them from the average criminal.

''... hypothetically speaking, if there was no law and order why wouldn't organized crime be able to operate anymore?''
Because then it wouldn't be 'organized!' Nothing would. I say that partly tongue in cheek. It truly is hypothetical, because the two concepts won't coincide.

You ask good questions. I just think that you look for nice neat concrete answers. You want to conclude with one sentence or two. Much of what you ask about would take a book or three, and can be discussed and argued til the cows come home. I like that kind of topic. But I won't wrap them up in a minute, day, week, or lifetime!

Thanks for being patient with me. My understanding is a little better. But I guess I'm getting ahead of myself... by law and order do they mean actual law and order (government, laws, judges, lawyers, police, etc.) or like the "laws" of organized crime (no going after certain women and children, only make certain people pay for protection, etc.)

I am sure Law&Order means cops and courts. Just want to add, consider the source, meaning TV shows are mostly fiction written for a certain audience. They take literary license when they produce these shows. Translation: they can, and do, exaggerate, and glamorize for dramatic effect.

So basically the root of all this is why wouldn't organized crime be 'organized' without courts and police officers?

They would still be organized without cops and courts, and always have been since the beginning of time, and often more organized than the law and order guys.

An approximation of lawless and orderless is a wild west town before they elect a sheriff.
Bands of criminals, killing who they want and taking what they want, until people fight back, and eventually hire a sheriff.
Can you call those gangs 'organized crime?' Sort of, but it isn't what we use that term for. We use it for crime that is much more involved in what is legal.

Law and Order are two different things.
Laws are legislatures, courts, judges, lawyers, and juries.
Order is those who uphold the law by attempting to enforce it and arrest those who break it.
The distinction is very important, so that the police don't get to decide who is guilty or not. A difficult distinction and will always be so.

Thank you so much. This is just the answer I needed for it to click

I don't understand here, for one instance, why you have to have the meaning of quotes from whatever explained to you. Why don't you understand what is written. I have no problem understanding this. So maybe you can explain your problem. Is it just not comprehending the spoken word because of a brain injury (sorry) a major stroke that re-directed your brain functions. I am being clinical here, and I am trying to understand your problem Allen Farber.

Tick

I boils down to this.. it's a TV Show.. don't go looking for the meaning of life in it.. because even the best plots and story writing don't get anywhere as deep as reality... and they are ALL very subject to a very liberally used artistic license.

A movie will have it far most hashed out and worked out... but a TV series only has X amount of time to come up with the next weeks show... so I think it really doesn't make a lot of sense to go looking for deeper meaning when its not even actually factored into the story-line.

The problem is like with books, it relies heavily on the consumer to read between the lines and fill it in with whatever they want... meaning you could put 100 people in the room and you could come up with 100 different things that weren't actually part of the script.

And the MOB, you see on TV couldn't be further from reality than it is most times. In one sense they are just like you and me.. and in another they couldn't be more different.

Hard to put that in words. But I've actually known not just knew of... people from several Crime families (mobsters actually) now deceased. Knew them long before I knew of their connections.. In one case I never learned of it until after their death.

I don't know what my problem is... it's just every time I read something or hear something it just sounds like words without any meaning. I've lost a lot of jobs because of this and my college education is on the line with only sub par grades. It makes sense to others just not to me and no doctors can diagnose me with anything. I've taken pills, natural remedies, and even been to a hyperbaric chamber and none have worked.

Sorry, now I've been thinking about it some more. Why does organized crime value law (legislature and judges) and order (police) so much? Without them, would they still not be able to sell their drugs and kill their competitors? If anything, anarchy should make it easier for them because then there's no cops and judges to pay off. I know it's "just a show" but it's a show that prides itself in being at least somewhat rooted in real life (season 1 at least)... and gangsters pay off cops and judges in real life, so how does it work for them? Also, why are cops and judges so secretive about being paid off by the mob? I mean if someone were to expose them, why would they lose power? Even if the citizens try to protest about it, gangsters and police officers no doubt will come on top

I answered the first question before - the mob values law and order to take care of the pesky little competitors so they don't have to. And since they have legit businesses to act as fronts and money launderers, they don't want anarchy making it more difficult.
Of course they could handle it themselves. It's an exaggerated concept to heighten the ''you need us, we need you'' theory.

Secretive? Of course they have to be. They are civil servants, paid for with our tax dollars. We the People won't stand for them being on the take. But also of course many of them do remain in power. Some are elected, some appointed, some hired. They hang onto their jobs in the usual ways - lying, trading favors, and shmoozing with others in power.

As for what is 'wrong' with your brain, whatever it is is interesting. You do seem to be wired differently. Many a cognitive science study would like to study you. I think you want everything in life to fall into neatly defined categories, with one neatly described answer. This is often associated with Asperger's. But you can also look at it as being a kind of smart, because you look for exact, 'correct' answers for everything. I'm reminded of the 4th grader whose arithmetic problem is marked 'wrong' by the teacher. The problem is which of these numbers is divisible by 2: 4 1/2, 13, 20 7/8. He says 'all of them.' He is correct. Why is a simple math problem not simple? Because it's really about how the question is WORDED. The exact, correct wording should be 'which of these numbers is divisible by 2 with no remainder.'

That of course doesn't get you through college nor allow you to keep a job. But it is possible to find your niche with Asperger's, or whatever it is that might defy a diagnosis. Many if not most Aspies function just fine once they find their spot in the world.

There's no test for Asperger's other than a series of questions. There IS some evidence of upon autopsy, in the frontal and temporal cortex, areas of 'higher function.' The cortex is that thin layer of folds on the brain that make it wrinkled. Asperger's is classified on the autism spectrum. It can run in families.

As I see it Allen, and no offense, you seem to get stuck on useless details, and fail to see the important big picture. Case in point is you are taking the dialogue of a TV show, and looking for meaning instead of the EFFECT the dialogue has on the character. In making such a big deal of it, let it go since and discussion will give you different opinions and everyone has an opinion, including you. Most people would have LET THIS GO for more important more real things that need focusing on.

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don't know what my problem is... it's just every time I read something or hear something it just sounds like words without any meaning. I've lost a lot of jobs because of this and my college education is on the line with only sub par grades. It makes sense to others just not to me and no doctors can diagnose me with anything. I've taken pills, natural remedies, and even been to a hyperbaric chamber and none have worked.

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What kind of jobs have you had that you LOST? What kind of courses are you currently taking that your grades are subpar? What courses specifically are you doing well in? Is this your FIRST year of college? These are my questions to you, as I think you focus on the wrong things, and ignore the important things. A job requires following directions ergo if you follow directions you keep your job, so why were you really fired? The important thing is the kinds of jobs you were fired from. Good grades require focusing on the course work and remembering because that's what college test are about as well as the homework, and study habits. That is why knowing what your grades are can reveal strengths and weakness, causes, and a plan to do better.

This is why I hope you can answers my questions and feel free to ask your own, because I admit to being quite confused by your lack of success with school work, and jobs, while making such a big deal over a TV show. Have you ever had an aptitude test?

It kind of is the big picture as the whole show revolves around the idea of organized crime and how to combat it within the system. As for jobs I lost, usually waiter, cashier, and clerical things. I misinterpret a lot of instructions and my manager thinks I do it purposely to be funny or to be a jerk. I’m in accounting as that’s primarily numbers and not words or having to read or understand meaning. I usually do well with numbers but I’m doing horrible with it somehow. And I obviously do care about grades in college but it’s like building blocks. Without understanding basic English and concepts, if you keep building on top of that without addressing it you’ll keep getting more and more confused. So if I can’t understand a quote that most people get, I doubt I could do well in a course 3 times as difficult. Despite reasoning with my brain that there’s more important things to focus on, my brain betrays me and keeps bugging me with thing I’m stuck on that’s comparatively less important. Sometimes I don’t even sleep as my Brain refuses to shut off

I understood the majority of what you said but how does anarchy affect money laundering and being able to model your drug business as a pizza parlor or whatever the front is

Allen (sorry to get off the subject again) what is your native language?

English...but despite me growing up speaking english and being around people that speak it, everytime I read a book or hear someone talk, it all seems jumbled up or broken and makes no sense. It's almost like I'm in a dream 24/7

Someday science of the brain will explain your situation. It's possible that if you could be around a teaching medical center for some weeks for study, tests could be done, such as imaging of your brain while reading and doing other mental tasks, to show what parts of your brain are firing on all synapses and what ones aren't. (The study I mentioned was only able to be done on autopsy, but it won't be long before it can be live. Little areas of the cortex were missing, just little patches here and there, instead of covering the entire brain.)

I know you said you studied accounting but still had a hard time. That's a field that many people with Asperger's go into, but it clearly isn't for you. If I were you, I would get doctors to help you get SSDI. Dyslexia just isn't enough to explain that feeling you have. You need the freedom of not having to work or worry, I think. The whole description of being in a dream and everything being jumbled or broken sounds as much like simple schizophrenia, without all the craziness, easy to be missed by doctors, as it does Asperger's, but it doesn't even matter except that it's required to have something for insurance purposes. It's also a condition we're learning more and more about, and it isn't about your childhood like Freud thought - it's about synapses that don't get 'pruned' by proteins in the teens, when they should. Our very active, busy imaginations are supposed to calm down in our teens, and in the schizophrenic the synapses stay pre-teen. Conversely, in dementias they get pruned too much, and instead of busy jumbled minds we get blank spots.

Anarchy (or as close to it as the modern world can get) would mean crime would run rampant, everyone would shoot anyone they wanted, including those who run shops and think someone is stealing, and chaos would make it difficult to run any business, legit, semi-legit, or a front for 'organized' crime like money laundering.