Why does the USA support Israel? What do we as a county gain from supporting them, when the negatives are so obvious and numerous? Is it political, moral, financial, romantic? Why is the existence of a Jewish homeland still important to America?
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Why does the USA support Israel? What do we as a county gain from supporting them, when the negatives are so obvious and numerous? Is it political, moral, financial, romantic? Why is the existence of a Jewish homeland still important to America?
I found tons of articles about this... these two seem like a good place to start:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_199...us_support.php
http://usconservatives.about.com/b/a/255647.htm
Hello VB:
We support them because they are a freely elected democracy. We like democracies, don't we? Isn't that what Bush is trying to establish? They're also western, and they're our ally. We should support Israel, because we said we would. Shouldn't we keep our word?
Tell me. What are some of the negatives to you? That the Arabs don't like them? Uhhh, so what? I'm sure the Mexicans didn't like us too much when we took their land. The Indians either. Should we give it back? You live on Indian occupied land, don't you? We put the Indians on reservations, didn't we? If the Indians sent suicide bombers into your city, would you give it back to them?
Maybe you just don't like Jews.
excon
Damn it, I hate when anything slightly critical of Israel appears the anti-semitic accusations fly. I'll read Rick's links when I have some free time but I also don't understand the support.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
A very good pro Jewish website that will help you understand why we need to support them would be
http://www.adl.org/main_Israel/default.htm
And in the end, we need to support them just because they are the enemy of our enemy,
The root answer can be summed up in one word GUILT. And Jews do guilt better than anyone else ;)
Seriously, the establishment of the Jewish state of Isreal stems from the guilt of the world at turning a blind eye to the Holocaust while it was happening.
Let me also remind people that the jews did not come into Palestine as conquerors like Americans and Indians. In some cases the Jews bought their way in, but most of the land was actually given or sold to them. And what was sold was generally non arable desert that the Arabs didn't want. The jewish settlers turned this land into workable farmland using modern technology and hard work.
As was also pointed out, Isreal is a democracy, one of the few true democracies in this world. And, as such, deserves our support. It also deserves our support because the only reasons it has enemies is purely irrational religious hatred.
Isreal has earned the alliance and support of America in numerous ways. But the bottomline, is we have signed treaties with them and we should honor them.
Hello:
Let me put it this way.
If a new free country was established - ANYWHERE - on this green earth, with democratic principles and free elections, wouldn't you support them with everything you've got?? Isn't that what we, as Americans, are about??
Or, does the question only rear it's ugly head, when we're talking about Jews?
What is it in particular, that has you critical of Israel? Let's get down to it.
excon
It's not an anti-semitic thing so leave that dead horse at the door.
Democracies are good. Yes. Support them, don't overthrow them. Good policy.
My aggitation with our support is the way that support manifests. We will not be critical of them no matter how outragous and murderous their behavior. We call ourselves a moral country yet we stand for nothing if we let the murder of innocents pass. And we do. Even the most limp condemnation from the UN we will block. Why? That country would not, could not exist without our generous support. Yet we can not influence them to behave humanely? Our foreign policy is a sham when we choose to be so two faced. We damage ourselves every time we choose to scream about one act of horror and stay quiet about another. I'm not saying abandon Israel to the wolves. I want us to demand our allies meet a higher standard. I want America and it's allies to be respectable. As they behave today; Israel is far from respectable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VBNomad
Do not even start with the stupid United Nations.
Why does the US block them?
Here is an idea…b/c of the Muslim majority.
In the stupid way the UN is set up, 1 country, 1 vote, it gives all these small Muslim countries who hate Jews 1 vote each.
Therefore, all the Muslim countries combined have a majority in the general assembly and since they HATE Jews, they always pass resolutions condemning Israel.
As for why the US blocks them? Because they are helping out an ally.
Let me ask you this.
If England wasn’t part of the Security Council and countless resolutions were passed condemning England, would you not want your allies on the Security Council to block them?
Hello again, VB:Quote:
Originally Posted by VBNomad
Nahhh, I think it's an anti-Semitic thing... They don't murder... They are moral... They are respectable...
If you believe otherwise, you are an anti-Semite!! Or you don't have a clue what's going on in the world. Me?? I choose to think you're an anti-Semite!
excon
The early zionists used terrorist tactics (bombing civilian targets) to drive the British out, and targeted asassinations are present-day official state policy, recently affirmed by the supreme court, to give just two examples. I know, the palestinians have done the same and worse, so in an "eye for an eye" morality, it's all justified. But you don't have to be an anti-semite to reject that kind of morality. The thing that makes the conflict so intractible is that both sides are absolutely convinced that God is on their side, so compromise is unthinkable. Where compromise is unthinkable, political problems are insoluble and revenge is an engine that never runs out of fuel.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello ordinary:
Nahh, the Jews are not fanatics. The country is 90% secular. Nope, they're fighting for their very existence - not for God.
excon
PS> Wouldn't WE have been better off, if we had just targeted Saddam? I'll bet 3,000 American family's of dead soldiers think so.
PPS> We're never going to solve this here. YOU say the wall is blue. I say the wall is green. The problem is truthiness. That's when you can no longer find the truth because of the spin.
This assumes that what you say is true. While there is a germ of truth in it, its an extremely biased viewpoint and misrepresents facts as well as makes assumptions that are incorrect and one-sided.Quote:
Originally Posted by VBNomad
You speak of the murder of innocents. What you fail to take into consideration is that Isreal is under siege. It is surrounded by countries that constantly attack it overtly and covertly. The innocents you speak of were put in harms way by the people killing thousands of Isreali innocents. Lets take the recent Hezbollah conflict. Yes, thousands of innocents died (on both sides). But one of the main reasons for that is that Hezbollah sited their missile launchers and launched their attacks from residential, non-combatant areas. They tried to hide behind these people either for protection or public relations.
Isreal's enemies have continually underestimated their resolve to defend the tiny sliver of land they have been given. Isreal is a small country and their response to such attacks has to be swift, decisive and greater then the attacks to survive as a country. This fact and Isreal's policy was affirmed by the reaction of Hezbollah after the cease fire. At least publicly their leader stated that had he known that Isreal would react so strongly they never would have captured the Isreali soldiers that insitigated the conflict.
You are also incorrect that the US's support of Isreal is total and uncritical. One of the stumbling blocks to peace in the Middle East has been Isreal's reluctance to give up as much as the US has been asking them to. There have also been several times when the US has criticized Isreal for actions that have been over the top.
So you may think you are not being anti-Semitic, but you are. You are spouting the same tired anti-Semitic, anti-Isreal propaganda that its enemies have been using since 1948. Other points of your post that are also inaccurate are your contention that Isreal would not and could not exist without our support. In point of fact, other than our recognition in 1948, the US government did practically nothing to support Isreal's birth. During the 1967 and 1972 wars, our support was minimal and confined mostly to SELLING them material like planes, tanks etc.
So my friend, when you take the anti-Semitic blinders off and look at the true historical facts, you might realize how foolish and prejudiced you have made yourself look.
Sure, there are lots of ways to justify murder if that's what you want to do. Just don't say "they don't murder". Say "their murdering is justified".
You are so right. I am so very, very sorry for ever thinking to question the morallity of the jewish police state. They live in a tough neighborhood so any and all means are justified. And no, America should never, ever ask that it's allies hold to any moral standard. That would imply that we ourselves should behave morally and that won't ever happen. Moral values are great rhetoric for the campaign trails, but you really don't want to have to live that way. Yes, take off the anti-semetitic blinders, and put on the American and it's Allies can do no wrong blinders. Real tight. Don't want any reality leaking through.
Hello again, ordinary:
I'm not a justifying kind of guy. I speak English. I love the language. It's so - so, precise! Murder is a legal term. Soldiers don't murder - they kill their enemy.
Israeli's don't MURDER - they kill their enemy. The enemy are combatants - not civilians. Any Israeli targeting killing is against an ENEMY FIGHTER - not civilians. ANY civilians killed by Israel are collateral damage.
MURDER is when a bomber intentionally kills innocent civilians. Palestinians do that ALL the time.
I know you don't understand the distinctions in the language that I'm using. But, you should.
excon
To me this is the bottom line.Quote:
As was also pointed out, Isreal is a democracy, one of the few true democracies in this world. And, as such, deserves our support. It also deserves our support because the only reasons it has enemies is purely irrational religious hatred.
Your sarcasm is neither appreciated nor warranted. Where did I say that America can do no wrong or that any of its allies including Isreal can do no wrong? Nor did I say that any means was justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by VBNomad
But you cannot chastise Isreal for the alleged "murder of innocents" until you, at least equally, chastise the Palestinans for the suicide bombings and similar terrorist actions. Or Hezbollah for their acts against Isreal.
You talk about "reality leaking through", but offer such a skewed, one-sided view of things that I question whether you even know what reality is! Several of your statements have been factually and historically incorrect. Other statements have been extremely one sided. I bear no illusions that Isreal has been angelic in protecting itself. Unlike you, I do know the reality. They have, at times, been overly aggressive and done things neither I nor this country have approved of. And they HAVE been criticized and even sanctioned for them. But I'm willing to cut them some slack since they are in a very tenuous position that requires such actions to survive.
Please accept my apologies. I was angry. I said some irrational things. Being called anti-Semitic because I question the US's one sided stance towards Israel by several of you made it very difficult to take any of you seriously at all. I regret the attempt at sarcasm. Sorry I offended those who are serious. Have a wonderful holiday season.
I admire your courage, and I look forward to a similar apology from those who levelled the anti-semitism charge. Equating criticism of the policies and actions of the US and Israeli governments with prejudice against an entire people is completely unwarranted and unjustified.Quote:
Originally Posted by VBNomad
See there you go again. To state that the US's stance towards Isreal is one sided is inaccurate and a misrepresentation.Quote:
Originally Posted by VBNomad
I will back off on my contention that you are anti-Semitic. I will just say that you are anti-Isreal. While the two often go hand in hand (hence my mistake), its possible to be anti-Isreal without being anti-semitic.
But the bottom line here is that your arguments against continued US support of Isreal and the level of that support is extremely biased, inaccurate and misleading.
In my opinion there are two ways to stop the carnage in the middle East. One way would be to let the Arabs win and wipe Isreal off the map. The other way would be for the Arabs to recognize Isreal's existence and to stop trying to drive them out with terrorist attacks.
I disagree. As I said above, since Isreal is a Jewish state, its very hard to separate criticism for the state from prejudice against the people. The reason for the strife in the Middle East between Isreal and its neighbors is religious hatred. So equating criticism of Isreal with anti-semitism is neither unwarranted or unjustified. Especially when that criticism is based on inaccurate and misleading propaganda promoted by anti-semitic groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
But I do concede that it is possible to be anti-Isreal and not anti-Semitic.
Hello again, ordinary:Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Yet, you mischaracterize defending yourself, as murder. When I point out your, shall I say, deliberate misuse of words, and suggest that you have OTHER motives, you say I owe YOU an apology??
In a pigs eye!
Instead of platitudes, why don't you actually argue with me? Tell me, how in your mind, defending yourself become murder. Dude! If you can't discuss this in a rational way, that's fine. But you don't win points by standing by huffily, demanding an apology. Plus, if you don't argue, it means you TOO accept what I say as truth.
excon
The anti-gentile sentiments here are appalling! :)
Hello again, Need:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I suspect your comment was made to, dash some water, so to speak, on an inflamed situation - hence, the smiley face. It didn't work.
The Jews have been accused, right here, if you care to look, of MURDER. When I ask why, I get nothing but... well, I get nothing, period!
I haven't yet accused gentiles of murder. I haven't accused them of anything, except a few here of some blatant anti-Semitism.
Accusing a few who exhibit anti-Semitic traits, and who say anti-Semitic things of being, dare I say, anti-Semitic, isn't close to anti-gentilisim. It's close to the truth.
I just consider this more name calling from those who can't argue about events that actually happen on the ground.
excon
Dude, you need some happy time.
By your precise legal definition of the word, no agent of a government (military or otherwise) acting in his official capacity can commit murder, since any killing they do is sanctioned by the state and therefore not a crime. I'll accept that. I don't accept that that necessarily makes it moral or respectable. Asassination (extra-judicial killing) is legal in Israel, but not in the US, so here it would be murder, but there it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Before the state of Israel was formed, the zionist underground used bombing of civilian targets as an instrument of policy.
Quote:
"In the summer of 1945, the Labor party came to power in Great Britain. They had promised that they would reverse the British White Paper and would support a Jewish state in Palestine. However, they presently reneged on their promise, and continued and redoubled efforts to stop Jewish immigration. The Haganah attempted to bring immigrants into Palestine illegally. The rival Zionist underground groups now united, and all of them, in particular the Irgun and Lehi ("Stern gang") dissident terrorist groups, used force to try to drive the British out of Palestine. This included bombing of trains, train stations, an officers club and British headquarters in the King David Hotel, as well as kidnapping and murder of British personnel." www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm
Yes, they do, and it's murder when they do it and it was murder when the zionists did it.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Not so hard, actually. The state of Israel is a nation with a government. Jews are a cultural and ethnic group, some of whom live in the state of Israel, many of which do not. Many Jews, both inside and outside Israel are critical of the policies of the Israeli government.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
Actually, I thought it was VB who was owed the apology, specifically because of this:Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
And this:Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
Because I hate to argue. I don't think it usually does any good.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
If that's what it means to you, I won't argue with you. To me, it means I've decided not to waste any more time.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I don't get your point here. Yes SOME of the zionists committed heinous acts. The arabs didn't invent terrorism or even suicide bombings. The State of Isreal is not proud of it. As I've said, there are a number of things they have done that should and have been condemned.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
The OP makes claims that such actions have not been condemned, that the US turns a blind eye to them. Those claims are untrue.
Nor does it change the fact that everything the State of Isreal has done has been in defense of its right to exist. If the attacks were to cease and its neighbors agreed to let Isreal exist in peace, then there would be no need for those actions to occur. Any criticism of Isreal has to be viewed from that perspective.
But $2 billion a year of US funding since 1971? That seems a bit excessive. T
Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Well, Thank you, Ordinaryguy. I won't hold my breath for the apologies. My New Year's resolution is to stop wasting so much time arguing with nit-wits and nazis. Have a nice year ordinaryguy. And if you continue the fight for reason, you have my deepest regards, and I admire your courage as well.
I was going to report your last post and have it removed, but I changed my mind. As excon pointed out, resorting to insults, especially such obviously false insults, shows your true agenda.
I think your actions confirm our suspicions that your are an anti-semite. I will close by pointing out that you have given no proof to support your allegations. Your resorting to insults is just a coverup to divert attention from the fact that everything you have said here is anti-Isreal, anti-Semitic proganda.
Oh, please Scott, by all mean, contact the moderator. Perhaps he will notice that you and the con have been specific in your insults and name calling. While my comment about 'nitwits and nazi's' was generic - about this and other forums - not just this thread or you two. So maybe the moderator will take your posts off since they are insulting. For the moderator's benefit, and the rest of us, maybe you would like to define anti-semetism. I know what Websters says, but how do you define this term?
Hello VB:
I know, you didn't ask the "con", but I thought I'd answer anyway.
I've been thinking. I don't know if it was you or the ordinary dude who brought it up, but whoever did it, was right.
In 1945, before the state of Israel was founded, the tactics used by some of the future Israeli's could rightly be called terrorist. I was 3.
Now we can argue about the beginnings, as I'm sure we will, but I wouldn't equate the population of Israel today, with those who aren't alive anymore.
They don't murder today. If you can cite an instance where they do, then I would agree that pointing it out, ISN'T anti-Semitic. However, saying they're murderers, when they aren't, is like saying WE'RE murders because Custer murdered some Indians. The logic is faulty.
So, either your history is off, or you're anti-Semitic. Calling people murderers, when they're the VICTIM of murderers, is anti-Semitic. You may think that's a slur. It isn't. It's a description of your attitude, since you don't look to history.
excon
Anti-Semitism is hostility toward or prejudice against Jews as a religious, racial, or ethnic group. Since Isreal is a Jewish state, run by and for jewish peoples, hostility towards the state of Isreal can be considered anti-semitism.
What you did was pure name-calling. It was inaccurate and irrational. In describing you as anti-semitic, I have your own words to back me up. I tried, earlier, to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your vulgarities and your insistence on spouting one-sided propaganda shows your true colors.
So what's hostility against the Iraqi people called? What's hostility against Germany called? What's hostility against Canada called?
Hello again, Need:
If someone tried to extinguish one of those groups, I'm sure the world would find a suitable word for it - just like the world found the word anti-Semitism when it happened to the Jews.
excon
This statement,
Doesn't follow from this statementQuote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
Unless there is no difference between the nation and the ethnic group. But of course they are different, and you know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
So I guess you didn't really mean this, huh?
By the way, the correct spelling is "Israel", not "Isreal".Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
Vulgarities? Before you dive into another round of name calling... how is questioning American foreign policy, or the defense policy of Israel anti-Semitism? How is wishing that our closest ally in the Mid East would behave respectably anti-Semitic? Is it because I didn't start multiple threads asking why we support each of our allies? I picked the one that seems to be causing us the most trouble over these long decades. I think the one that we give multiple billions of our tax dollars to each year should at least be scrutinized. But I take it not in your world view, huh? Suggesting scrutiny of Israel equates to bigotry.
I think blind allegiance to Israel, especially if you are only an outside observer - an American citizen, for instance - is bigotry. Yes, Scott I think it's you who has the problem. Your words, the speed to which you resort to hurling insults. Your definition doesn’t even hang together with the argument. You are the bigot. Not me.
The murder of innocents I was talking about was when Israeli artillery shelled the Palestinian town killing a large family in their house. They weren't combatants. They were civilians, just like the civilians in Southern Lebanon, and just like the UN observers who died by Israeli artillery fire. These are well documented instances in the last six months. I don't know where international law comes down on UN observers, but intentionally targeting civilians is a war crime. "Collateral damage" is a nice, antiseptic phrase, but when you are standing in the dock at the Hague the word is murder.
I think we need our ally to act respectably if we are ever to solve the conflict in the Mid East. 30 years of rubber stamping one outrage after another has not served the United States well.
Sorry, I used the wrong word. Vulgarities was incorrect. Instead I should have used abusive insults.Quote:
Originally Posted by VBNomad
I have already explained why I think you are exhibiting anti-semitism. Please go back and reread those explanations.Quote:
Originally Posted by VBNomad
The problem here is that you continue to ignore any facts that don't fit into the propaganda you believe in. Your suggestion that our alliance with Israel shouldn't be scrutinized makes the invalid assumption that it isn't already.Quote:
Originally Posted by VBNomad
Bigotry is the hatred of a group of people simply because they are part of that group. I haven't expressed hatred or even antipathy towards anyone. So your accusation of bigotry is just another of your unsupported claims.
As for blind allegiance. You are again ignoring the facts. I have said several times that Israel has done things I don't support and they should not be proud of. Things that I have been critical of. But, unlike you, I look at the larger picture. I look at how Israel is beset by groups dedicated to their destruction. I look at why so-called civilians are sometimes killed when Israel retaliates for attacks against it. I look at the atrocities committed against Israel. When I look at the big picture and all the facts, I feel that continued support of Israel is the right thing to do.
Again you ignore the fact about why so-called civilians get killed in instances like those. You ignore that Hamas and Hezbollah continually launch their attacks from such civilian areas. They bear a greater part of the responsibility for such casualties. Until you condemn them for those actions, until you condemn them for constantly harassing Israel, until you condemn them for putting their civilians at risk then your comments bear the mark of anti-semitism In my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by VBNomad
And here is where you go so far afield as to be ludicrous. There is only one way to solve the conflict in the Middle East. I stated it earlier. Get organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas to acknowledge Israel's right to exist and to stop attacking it. Get countries like Syria to stop funding these terrorists organizations. Get such countries to also acknowledge Israel's right to exist. That's where the road to peace lies. Why should ANYONE ask Israel to act respectably when their enemies show no inclination to do likewise? For us to withdraw our support or publicly chastise Israel for actions that are not what you refer to as respectable is only to provide fodder for Israel's enemies to continue their attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by VBNomad
No, the problem is you. Your extremely one-sided view, your refusal to consider facts that mitigate or falsify your position indicate a prejudice that supports the anti-semitic tag.
What would you have a nation do, if they are attacked with rockets from southern Lebanon and embeds itself into the population? What would you have a nation do when people strap bombs to themselves and walks into a crowd of every day people? What would you have a nation do who is openly terrorized by fanatics who promise the death of Israelis? What would you have a nation of people do when all their neighbors harbor weapons and fanatical nuts, who openly seek the overthrow and death to millions of Israeli people? The Israeli state in question has a right to seek and destroy its enemies and all who follow the path of destruction that hatred and stupidity have brought to its people. What makes anyone think these misguided souls will stop at just destroying the Jewish nation when they have already said that WE, America is next. Call names and place blame, the real threat of nuts to kill and destroy others is a threat to us ALL.
Hello again, VB:Quote:
Originally Posted by VBNomad
No, no they weren't. The civilians in Northern Israel, killed by the shelling from Hezbollah, were targeted by the government. The civilians killed by Israel were killed by mistake. There's a difference there - a BIG difference.
I don't excuse those killings. The US didn't excuse those killings. But, most importantly, THE ISRALI GOVERNMENT DIDN'T EXCUSE THOSE KILLINGS. Investigations ARE underway. IF somebody DELIBERATELY targeted civilians, THEY WILL BE PUNISHED. Israel IS a civilized country, contrary to Gaza or Southern Lebanon.
The difference is, and what you fail to see, is that it's the PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT itself, that targets and pays for the killing of civilians, and the suicide bombers who do it.. and the rocket launchers. Nobody is punished - ever…. Just the opposite.
This information is clear, and similar information has been available for over 50 years. Some people want to see it differently than it is. When that difference is aimed at the Jews, it's called anti-Semitism.
excon
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