Why bail out the auto industry when the top dogs fly to DC in their own private jets to ask for money? The NERVE of these men is unbelievable. What are they thinking?? :eek:Not one person that works for Ford, GM, etc should lose their job as long as the top brass is making multi millions of dollars a year and jetting around the country in one of their fleet of private jets. Too good for commercial flights?

Why can't we as tax payers say we will help if needed AFTER you have helped yourselves. Sell some jets, take a pay cut, "spread the wealth", THEN we will talk. This is so wrong on so many levels, burns me up.

The really sad part is that thousands of hard working Americans could lose their jobs if we do not bail them out. Meanwhile, back at the farm, the fat cats and top dogs are sitting pretty.:confused:

This is simply another example of politics today in America. The unions spend millions to get their man elected and now they have forced the auto makers to go to Washington to ask for money. To keep the union workers in the lifestyle that they feel is deserving for them.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

This is simply another example of politics today in America. The unions spend millions to get their man elected and now they have forced the auto makers to go to Washington to ask for money. to keep the union workers in the lifestyle that they feel is deserving for them.

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Getting "their man" elected has nothing to do with top execs being extremely over paid ,
While their company goes under for lack of funds. And, if nothing else, the gall it takes to fly your private jet to DC to ask for money! Where is common sense? I don't care for unions and it is a shame that they had to be formed. Unions had to come into existence because the powers that be were not treating their underlings with fairness and dignity. If everyone would just do the right thing we wouldn't need so many watchdogs. :rolleyes:

What the auto industry is strapped with today is plain hog wash. Unskilled assembly line workers making $71 and change with benefits. Currently there are by the best estimated 12,000 workers that report to a building and sit for 8 hours a day doing NOTHING and collect 90% of their salary because they were displaced. On average it takes the unionized auto worker 25% longer to build a car than their non union Japanese counterparts. You wonder why the big three are bankrupt? I would be willing to bet that if you could ever dig to the bottom of the campaign donations from the last election cycle for both parties you would be astounded at how much certain people got and from who. Those contributors are now at the doorsteps of congress with their hats in their hands looking to bankrupt this country like has happened to their companies. The approval rating of congress is what? Single digits now. Lowest in all of history. Electing a bunch of talk show hosts is not the answer. The answer is complete reform in Washington and so far NO ONE appears to be doing it. Including our president elect!

What talk show hosts? And Obama hasn't even been sworn in and you are condemning him already? Reform sounds good to me because people sitting around doing nothing for 90% of their salary is just as bad as the Ford CEO making 28million plus perks. Again, where is the common sense? What we do know is that McCain was about more of the same and Obama may be the breath of fresh air and voice of reason that this country needs. I'm looking forward to better days.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

What talk show hosts? And Obama hasn't even been sworn in and you are condemning him already? Reform sounds good to me because people sitting around doing nothing for 90% of their salary is just as bad as the Ford CEO making 28million plus perks. Again, where is the common sense? What we do know is that McCain was about more of the same and Obama may be the breath of fresh air and voice of reason that this country needs. I'm looking forward to better days.

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Yea, he made lots of claims during the campaign. So far he has hired noting but Washington insiders Clinton, Emanual. Sounds like more of the same to me. Greed and power for the elite few. The rest of us drones are here to worship and serve these clowns!

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Currently there are by the best estimated 12,000 workers that report to a building and sit for 8 hours a day doing NOTHING and collect 90% of their salary because they were displaced.

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Could you provide with your source on this, I'm interested in reading more about it.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Yea, he made lots of claims during the campaign. So far he has hired noting but Washington insiders Clinton, Emanual. Sounds like more of the same to me. Greed and power for the elite few. The rest of us drones are here to worship and serve these clowns!

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Greed and power for the elite few? I don't know what you are talking about. Obama's plan is the total opposite of that. The elite few are the ones that will be paying more taxes. Haven't you heard? The CEOs that flew in on their private jets are an example of the elite few. "Worship and serve" just sounds like sour grapes.

Hey

For you non believers, here is one link.
A simple web search reveals more stories.
About 10,000 idle autoworkers being paid full wages. | Article from Detroit Free Press (Detroit, Michigan) (viaKnight-Ridder/Tribune Business News) | HighBeam Research

Article date: January 28, 2005

A more recent article states:

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Because, with all the buyouts and early retirements announced in the past 18 months, there will be hardly anyone left in the jobs bank...

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Then after Feb 2007 there are no articles about it from your news aggregator.

Yes, I don't see the real problem, they will not go "out' of business, they may go into chapter 11, and have court appoint people to take over the operation, They can restructure the pay for the workers, and more.

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Originally Posted by t-popas

hey

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Hey

GM Spends $17 Million Per Year on Viagra


Then when gm goes under pfizer will be asking for a ere... er... bailout

The first thing to do to salvage the auto industry would be to file for chapter 11 bankruptsy protection.

Then the big 3 and the UAW should submit to binding arbitration that brings their compensation back to reality. Yes executive pay should be capped as part of the deal also along with a whole new business model developed .

If the UAW refuses to bring their workers pay and compensation in line with other automakers operating in the country then they deserve to lose their jobs. Even better , if they refuse to renegotiate then the big 3 should pack up and move to a right to work state.

It is a myth that these 3 companies are "American " companies . They are in truth "international companies " having huge % of their ownership being foreign. Chrysler as an example was recently owned by a “German” company, remember Daimler-Chrysler ? Now Chrysler is a privately owned company.
Chrysler is currently owned by Cerebus Capital Management.
Cerebus is a private capital investment firm that owns shares in companies all over the world. Cerebus was formed in 1992. It has its own bank, a Japanese Bank, not an “American” bank, named Aozora.Plus ;being a private company the tax payers cannot even own a share of the company.

They are as much an American company as Toyota which has a significant % ownership by Americans.

The government should make changes in their regulations to allow autos that are money makers for American automakers in the international markets to be sold in the Unites States.
Then instead of a bail out and in the spirit of the new President-elect 's desire to build the economy from the bottom up;a tax credit of $5000 should be given to anyone purchasing an American car instead of a bailout that would preserve the status quo.

Tom, you need to take over for Paulson!

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The first thing to do to salvage the auto industry would be to file for chapter 11 bankruptsy protection.

Then the big 3 and the UAW should submit to binding arbitration that brings their compensation back to reality. Yes executive pay should be capped as part of the deal also along with a whole new business model developed .

If the UAW refuses to bring their workers pay and compensation in line with other automakers operating in the country then they deserve to lose their jobs. Even better , if they refuse to renegotiate then the big 3 should pack up and move to a right to work state.

It is a myth that these 3 companies are "American " companies . They are in truth "international companies " having huge % of their ownership being foreign. Chrysler as an example was recently owned by a “German” company, remember Daimler-Chrysler ? Now Chrysler is a privately owned company.
Chrysler is currently owned by Cerebus Capital Management.
Cerebus is a private capital investment firm that owns shares in companies all over the world. Cerebus was formed in 1992. It has its own bank, a Japanese Bank, not an “American” bank, named Aozora.Plus ;being a private company the tax payers cannot even own a share of the company.

They are as much an American company as Toyota which has a significant % ownership by Americans.

The government should make changes in their regulations to allow autos that are money makers for American automakers in the international markets to be sold in the Unites States.
Then instead of a bail out and in the spirit of the new President-elect 's desire to build the economy from the bottom up;a tax credit of $5000 should be given to anyone purchasing an American car instead of a bailout that would preserve the status quo.

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Thank you for taking the time to write this most informative post. Lets hope and pray for wisdom of the powers that be, before handing over the big bucks.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Then instead of a bail out and in the spirit of the new President-elect 's desire to build the economy from the bottom up;a tax credit of $5000 should be given to anyone purchasing an American car instead of a bailout that would preserve the status quo.

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Jay Leno said the best way to bail out the auto industry rather than hand them money then they don't fix anything is send the average working people a stimulus check specifically for a car and then you bailed out the poor working man AND helped the auto industry at the same time.

What really bothers me is that hard working Americans who have to fund their own health plans etc in retirement are being asked to fund the UAW benefits. If the auto industry could be profitable under the system then fine ;that's between labor and management. But that is not the case anymore .
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Eco...135_chart1.gif
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Eco...135_table1.gif

Read the facts here :
Auto Bailout Ignores Excessive Labor Costs

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By seeking a bailout, the UAW, along with the Detroit automakers, are asking taxpayers to help keep UAW earnings at $75 an hour when the typical American takes home a third that much. The Big Three also want Congress to use taxpayers' money to pay billions of dollars into the new health care VEBA, thereby funding health care benefits for UAW retirees that are far more generous than those provided by an already under-funded Medicare system.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

What really bothers me is that hard working Americans who have to fund their own health plans etc in retirement are being asked to fund the UAW benefits. If the auto industry could be profitable under the system then fine ;that's between labor and management. But that is not the case anymore .
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Eco...135_chart1.gif
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Eco...135_table1.gif

Read the facts here :
Auto Bailout Ignores Excessive Labor Costs

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Why can't we do this? Say, we will give you the money to keep the industry afloat BUT it will be under these conditions... Then, have a room full of ethical brainey types work out a plan that is beneficial to ALL people involved in a fair and just manner.

One condition is that this union crap and inflated wages has got to go. AND you will not need a union because management will be doing what is fair, just, and respectable to employees in the first place. Employees would have the same respect for management because they will be satisfied with their job conditions and compensations.

Simply put, if everybody did the right thing we wouldn't need watchdogs. BUT, greed has been the drive instead of mutual respect. The "what's in it for me and how much can I get" has been the mantra. So... the only leverage the gov/tax payers have to make things right is to hold this money over their heads and dictate what needs to take place.

Simple concepts, why can't it be done? :o Makes me think of the book, "All I ever needed to know, I Learned in Kindergarten".

The unions have done there jobs but they are obsolete and uncompetitive and in a lot of cases corrupt.

US automakers have to comply with OSHA, EPA regs, EEOC, whether they are Honda or Ford.


"We" can't do this, because the market, i.e. the consumer sets the prices by there purchases. To insist on wages and benefits that are nearly twice that of your domestic competitors is business suicide, and this is being proven out.

The question is why should the taxpayor bail them out.

I think if the UAW is going to concede on wages and benefits, management definitely has to also, starting with private jets.

Hello:

I don't know why you want to beat up labor. I guess it's because you don't have Bill Ayers anymore...

Plus, your addition is wrong... If you take the health care costs out, the UAW worker is making about $43/hr. That looks like what the NON unionized Japanese are paying their workers... The COUNTRY pays for their health care.

What's your point? $43 is too much?

It's also grandstanding by congress to make light of the CEO travel methods. It's hypocritical, short sighted, mean spirited, and really DUMB too. It takes away from the real problems we're facing. I think the're highly overpaid, but I don't mind that they travel in private jets.

But, what do you expect from congress?

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

I dunno why you want to beat up labor. I guess it's because you don't have Bill Ayers anymore....

Plus, your addition is wrong.... If you take the health care costs out, the UAW worker is making about $43/hr. That looks like what the NON unionized Japanese are paying their workers.... The COUNTRY pays for their health care.

What's your point? $43 is too much?

It's also grandstanding by congress to make light of the CEO travel methods. It's hypocritical, short sighted, mean spirited, and really DUMB too. It takes away from the real problems we're facing. I think the're highly overpaid, but I don't mind that they travel in private jets.

But, what do you expect from congress?

excon

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Not much!


The funny thing is that congress has the nerve to ask the big 3 for a viable business plan.

Is this not the same congress [ along with Prsident Bush - I'll give you that ;) ] that has spent us into trillion dollar debt? :confused:

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What's your point? $43 is too much?

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possibly yes when they are going to Washington and asking the $25 /hr average worker to subsidize their income.

No one is blaming the worker solely . However ,given a choice of no job or a job with reduced compensation that still is gold standard compared to the rest of the American labor force ;they should be more flexible in their response.
The business model of Detroit is flawed ,and the big 3 have to address all aspects of that... but labor relations weighes heavily in the equation.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello:


Plus, your addition is wrong.... If you take the health care costs out, the UAW worker is making about $43/hr. That looks like what the NON unionized Japanese are paying their workers.... The COUNTRY pays for their health care.

What's your point? $43 is too much?

excon

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Actually with benefits the average big three auto workers make 71 and change an hour. Their non union counterparts in the South east make on average about 37 an hour. It takes the average Big three Unionized auto workers to make a car on average 10 hours longer then their non union counterparts. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. GM/Ford/Chrysler are strapped with union contracts that hare killing their productivity. Add to the facts that
They have outdated production models again thanks in large part to the union mentality it is no wonder they are broke. They are losing on average around 2000 dollars per car because of company mismanagement and union greed for the last 40 years. Yes, I blame both parties.

Yohu