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I have just read where Mexico votes to legalize small amounts of cocaine, heroin and marijuana.
What are the implications where American citizens cross the boarder and use what is there legal drugs but would then have traces of the drug in their system for drug tests in the US. Since they did not do anything illegal by any government law, could they then be held responsible for employee drug tests.
Yes! A positive drug test can get you fired since drugs are illegal in the U.S. But another aspect of Mexico's new policy will be less drug related arrest for small amounts of drugs hmm.. :cool:
Hi, Chuck,
Very good question!
The US Gov't doesn't know what to do with the millions of illegal immigrants in the US now. This only adds to more problems.
My own opinion is that if anyone tests positive in the US for drugs illegal in the US, it's still the same actions by the employer.
Other examples could also apply. If something is legal in another country, then a person is caught doing it in American, where it is illegal, then it's still illegal here.
Best wishes.
I think marjuana should be legalised only. Its not such a harsh drug compared to others and that way the government and police can concentrate on more important issues than just marjuana.
I agree, although I do not partake in Smoking, I think our government should focus on more harmful drugs out there such as crack and heroin. I don't think Marijuanna is necessarily bad. I do think that Crack and cocain is. I think if anyone in the U.S. is tested by their employer and crack/cocain, heroin, or any other hard drug is in their system, they should be penalized, even if they did do it in Mexico. The fact is, those drugs are harmful and addictive, and chances are, if they do those type of drugs in Mexico, where it would be legal, then they will do it here. Those are drugs that are immediately addictive and ruin lives.
The issue here is employment and the perception of what is a right.
For example, a basketball coach was forced out of a job after getting caught in pics drinking with students. Technically, the coach did nothing illegal. School thought it put the univ in a bad light... out goes the coach.
A health care company fires all employees who smoke or refuse to take tests to prove wheter they smoke.
NYC's transport union is threatened with a fine of a million dollars a day for the strike that crippled the transport system... declaring the workers protests illegal. This ex isn't the same as the others, since the strikes are banned by law, but the freedom of speech isn't banned. You just risk your job by speaking your mind.
An employer asks all current employees to sign a non compete contract and then fires those who refuse to sign.
So the point is that you are simply not free to do anything, even if it is legal.
Many tend to be ignorant of the fact that many times employers do have the right to fire at will. Outside of a few things, such as race, gender, religion, age, military leave, your employer does not need to have good cause to fire you.
So while I'm all for indiv rights... I also understand my rights as an employee and employer. If I'm a charitable org and I find an employee is engaging in risky behaviour that could hurt the PR of the org, the right to fire will be used if there is no other recourse.
I have absolutely no problem with a company firing employees for the use of an substance that is illegal in this country, even if the use of the substance was in a country that allowed it.
The rights of the employer stretch far beyond that.
While I was a probation officer, one of the Deputies told me that the jail inmates would have a new inmate, that used crystal, pee in a cup. The inmates would then dry the pee on a flat surface, scrape up the residue and snort it. The amount of crystal left in the urine will get them high! That means that the illegal substance is still on their person... even if it is in their person... does it not? When I explained this to one of the judges, he said it would not be too far fetched to dry a urine specimen, scrape it up, test it for drugs and charge for possession. If a person uses illegal drugs in a country where it is legal, then is tested in a country where it is illegal, I would assume they are still under full penalty since the illegal substance is in or on their person,(possession). Also, do you really think your employer would fall for the line, " you can't fire me since I did cocain in Mexico where it was legal? If that were the case, everyone would be doing it! They isn't going to let all that get started!;)
Concerning the comment on my earlier post-
"talaniman agrees: The boss is always right!?!?"
no. I don't think that. But right and legal are sometimes two different things. Just and legal are not always the same. But in this case, I think the employers rights are mostly just.
Id be upset if my mother was fired because she works for a health care provider and smokes, for example. But... I don't think the fire at will right that an employer has is necessarily a bad thing. It makes an employee vulnerable and uncomfortable... but there was NEVER a guarantee of employment in the first place. Its not a birth right. It is an opportunity. And sometimes things don't work out.
I know it sounds like I'm saying the boss is always right. I don't think that... but I don't think that an employer should have to apologize for letting an employee go if they think there is something about that person that in incompatible with the running of the business. It's a business... not a life time meal ticket.
While the boss might not always be right, in many cases the boss HAS that right.
I worked in a union shop for 30 years and the boss had better be right. Taking someone's lively hood because the boss feels like it is too much like slavery. Since being in Texas it seems like there are no workers right at all, and everyone's happy so who am I to shake the cart. But the boss has a right to make fair and just rules that apply to everyone including testing for drugs.:cool: :eek:
My father and grandfather were both union. I marched in solidarity parades as a kid, so I'm not one to say its OK to treat workers poorly or not pay reasonable wages. And firing for meanness and without reasonable cause is dishonorable, but not illegal in most circumstances.
This is an issue where there are just gray areas because laws are meant to be flexible and not written to a specific situation. I would be very uncomfortable with an employer who constantly tests me for drugs... although if I so choose to work in an area that demands it, it is my choice. If I've chosen to make my livlihood in a business environment that I'm not suited for, then that's my bad decision.
If the boss feels an employee doesn't fit in with the business, if this person may do damage to the business by their conduct, then I think it's a crime to make that employer suffer the damage such an employee can make. It impacts the employer and all of the employees as well. I've seen this first hand and everyone in the place was in a much better work environment when that jerk was shown the door. The customers didn't have to suffer the guys attitude, the coworkers all could do their job better. And he was pretty much fired for being an a$$.
So I agree and I don't. There needs to be balance. Employees need to be respectful of the business environment and understand the expectations of the employer. The employer needs to be respectful of the employee as well. But id just rather not have a flammable truck being driven by a guy who did coke, under legal circumstances or not.
I am going to throw some fuel on the fire here and see what response we get.
What are your thoughts to this statement?
Attachment 916
Many of these substances are illegal simply because the government does not have a system in place that controls the production, sale, and collection of taxes on them.
Marijuana, cocaine, lsd, crack cocaine, meth, heroin... there's a start.
Of these id say marijuana is the ONE that you might be able to argue out of the group.
Id like others to persuede me otherwise, but one out of 7 isn't "many" in my book.
While there probably is some pessimistic truth to the statement (the govt is interested really only if it can fill the coffers), I'm thinking there are other reasons these are not legal... maybe its just me.
I don't think the government will be adding recreational drugs to the list of federally approve drugs that have a definite response to pain, illness or disease. So what would you do, go to a doctor and say, "hey man, I feel like getting stoned this weekend!" They have dirivatives of the Coca plant for pain but crystal meth is just plain evil crap with no use other than that which it serves now... to totally distroy anyone that uses it. As far as pot, it is good and bad with no real proven medicinal value. The bad part is anyone that smokes it every day. They really are not living life to their fullest potential... they are just stoned! The good part, from what I hear, since alcohol is my drug of choice, is that it really relaxes, until you start smoking it day in and day out and you are just always stoned. Terminal patients say it relieves pain and that is good. I think if you are dying, you should be allowed, under law, to use pot to live your last days as comfortable as possible. Perfect case scenerio: Put it all down and just get high on life.:p
Back in the day we never got tested unless there was probable cause, such as an accident or outlandish behavior. But everyone was smoking weed or drinking. But these new drugs scare the hell out of me and today you have to take a drug test just to get hired, which I isn't mad about but these youngsters know all the tricks when it comes to passing those tests! That's scary too, because you may be working next to some strung out... and never know!:cool: :eek:
The person administering the test is the most important part. If that person knows the correct procedure, the test will be 99% accurate. I have had people try to cheat but I busted them mostely due to their own suspious behavior. I had one guy that had a tube running from his business end to a pump mounted in his pocket which was full of some one else's urine. It was a pretty nice out fit with just one little problem, it made an obnoxious pumping sound when pumped! I told him half way through the procedure that he might want to have his prostrate looked at by a doctor! He had more plumbing affixed to his person than the restroom we were using! After working for the State prison, Federal prison and being a probation officer, I have done more U/As than I want to remember. I am retired and I will never do another nor will I give another. You are correct when you say you do not want to work in a critical job with a druggie. I, personally, don't want to share the streets with them! Tweakers are stupid. I have known a few in my life and they are the most nonproductive people on the planet. The only job a Tweaker could do is to be a speed bump in a trailer park! Even that could be a danger to the people driving by.:eek:
Hello:
There are more and better drugs right here in the good ol USA. I don't know of anybody who would do drugs in Mexico, but wouldn't here. To believe otherwise isn't realistic.
excon
Employers are legally permitted to not hire smokers, so I don't see why they could not also prohibit drug users.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
This is why illegal drugs (besides marijuanna) should NOT be legallized...
Hello:
I respectfully disagree with Cgirl, and ANY of you drugwarriors out there.
What I DON'T disagree with, is the devastation methamphetamine causes in peoples lives. However, the drug war hasn't kept it out of anybody's hands either. Therefore, I suggest that all drugs be RE-legalized, regulated so that they stay out of the hands of children, and taxed heavily to pay for the burden drug use puts on society.
Exactly like cigarettes!! However, cigarettes kill 10 times as many people as ALL the illegal drugs put together, and that includes people killed in drug crime.
Do I think legalization would solve the drug problem? Yes! About 90% of it, anyway. About 10% is caused by addiction. The other 90% is caused by the justice system.
Most importantly, legalization would do a much better job of keeping drugs OUT of the hands of children, than we are doing now. THAT is where our enforcement should be concentrated on, - NOT adults. In this country, if you want to stay high all day, you should be free to do it.
Please don't misunderstand me, drugwarriors, I said a drug user should be free to stay high - not free to STEAL to stay high. But of course, if drugs were legalized, a user wouldn't have to STEAL to stay high.
excon
PS> Oh, I suppose there are those of you out there who are going to say that if we legalize drugs then there will be an explosion of drug use. I say, bahh. In my experience, people who have a propensity to use drugs, are in fact, using drugs. I don't know anybody who is just waiting to dive into the drug world, who isn't already there. Look around in your life. Do you know anybody? No, you don't. Pot smokers?? They're ALREADY smoking pot.
Aren't cigarettes suppose to also stay out of the hands of children? And yet, our local convenience store sells them to children. So how does legalizing it help children in that way?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
People have much easier access to cigarettes then they do to others.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I can walk into a store and buy a cigarette to try, but where to find cocaine?
I don't know. There is this one guy I am told who secretly sells it.
Point, its much harder.
That isn't true.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
If you are addicted, you could very well steal the LEGAL product.
I have seen/heard of people who steal alcohol and cigarettes from stores.
If you can't afford it and you are addicted, you will steal it either way.
The problem is not the substance but the people who use them .I have seen first hand that those that want to(use drugs) will.Whether its alcohol or gold paint or cough syrup people will always find a way to get there hands on something to make them feel good and get hooked. They can be helped if they want to be but this so called war on drugs is a sham at best as only the least of us ever goes to jail and the ones with the planes and boats and laundry go on as usual. A street hustler doesn't know anyone in Afghanistan and that's the biggest link in the chain so legalize it or get the real dope dealers in jail and not just the low level pusher. Hmm.. Wonder why Bush hasn't burned any poppy plants even though he sent a bunch of troops to Afghanistan! Where do you think that dope is going to end up? War on drug? Somebodies laughing all the way to the bank!:cool: :rolleyes:
If anyone thinks drugs should be legal in their country should go to Amsterdam and stay for a couple of weeks. Take your kids to **** park and see if you want them to play on the swing set. Not a real pretty site!
Hello:
Well of course, magprob thinks drugs should be illegal. His income is dependent on it. He's a probation officer for crying out loud. If drugs were legalized, he'd actually have to find meaningful work.
excon
This is absolutely amazing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I didn't think there was anyone still IN Mexico!
Magprob is retired and has been for some time now. He has a thriving log home restoration business in Idaho and works every day. Watch those bum raps there Mr. Excon. I do work in Seattle from time to time.
Personally, I think pot should be legalized... it's good stuff. Not to mention all of the by products we could be using. The oil alone will fuel a car. As far as meth, I think it is evil and anyone that doesn't, is just ignorant. Same for crack and herion. But above all, I think if you want to do drugs it's all right with me. Kind of like natural selection... stupid people kill themselves off... hopefully before they have a chance to breed. That is the best case scenario.
The by products derived from hemp is not even the smokable, get high plant. It is too bad it is not legal as there are so many valuable uses for it.
The gov't will not legalize it probably for that reason.
It is so sad to see someone take a drug for a good time and they are hooked and their life changes, never to be the same. It becomes their main focus, when can I get my next fix, next joint. When I finish I will grab a 6 pack. I deserve it, I have worked hard for this. I have seen someone work so hard for their money, only to use it for an addiction. Truly sad
Also if you are a strong willed person and know how to control drugs, everything in moderation.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Don't LET THE DRUGS CONTROL YOU, YOU CONTROL THE DRUGS ;)
Some people were brought up around drugs and weren't given a choice, their father or mother said to them "here, try this, this will allow you to bond with me" and then boom, they are hooked on coke or crack, or whatever it was. There are a lot of recovering drug addicts out there, and if we legalized those hard drugs, it would be that much harder for them. Think about the people who HAVE turned there life around and are no longer using. Imagine if you could get coccaine at your local convenient store. The results would be devastating. Recovering addicts stay away from the people they did drugs around for a reason, because if t hey are still around the stuff, they will likely do it. Plus, curious children DO try drugs, and Cocaine and Crack can hook you just like that. I think it is ridiculous to say we should legalize those drugs.
Cgirl,
You do give really valid points actually.
I don't think it would be ever possible to legalize Class A drugs, but I think Class C such as marijuana, should be legalised. I think that way the law enforcement can deal with dealers who sell harder drugs such as herione or crack.
I agree totally Krs. They should legalize Marijuana, but not hard drugs.
It's RESPONSIBILITY - and it could reduce the crime rate. I've worked with a lot of kids that got their first joint in school - as a fad. It's just as bad to think of dealing 'small' while still in school. Eliminate this and the 'kick' will vanish (I hope).Quote:
PS> Oh, I suppose there are those of you out there who are going to say that if we legalize drugs then there will be an explosion of drug use. I say, bahh. In my experience, people who have a propensity to use drugs, are in fact, using drugs. I don’t know anybody who is just waiting to dive into the drug world, who isn’t already there. Look around in your life. Do you know anybody? No, you don’t. Pot smokers?? They’re ALREADY smoking pot.
I also live across the border from Holland, and they seem to have it in as much control as possible to me.
Hard drugs should be gotten rid of completely - but that's a dream that's probably not going to happen - as long as there is a market.
We can at least have a little control over, and use the taxes gained - just as in tobacco.
Maybe we can work on getting potential dealers off the street.
As far as those that consume and run into a drug test, that will never change - and it's up to them to curb themselves.
Hello again:
It is not unfair to point out that some people may have reasons, OTHER than their conscience, guiding their support for the drug war. People, who's income is dependent on the drug war (cops, prosecutors, jailers, etc.), fall into that category. That's just so.
In addition, I do INDEED, think there is more meaningful work, than that of arresting, prosecuting, imprisoning, and supervising upon their release, people who use or sell drugs.
That's an opinion. You may not agree. That's fine. But it is, absolutely, a fair argument.
excon
If they didn't arrest tweakers and junkies they would be crawlin around your property and mine at all hours of the night stealing anything they could get their hands on. I see them all the time on ten speeds with a flash lights cruising up and down the alleys. If all they want to do is dumpster dive, well I guess that's OK, but, I've had stuff come up missing and I know it was tweakers, AKA Vampires, doing it. Arresting people for pot is a waste of time... I'll go that far with you but junkies and tweakers are a completely different breed of cat... one me and most other people want controlled and out of our hair.
I think the root of the problem lies within our govt. and how we are so focused on everything else that we don't pay attention to the war within this country
I have lost many friends to drugs
I know this war first hand
My husband's father is a cocaine addict
How can we as a country expect people with addictions to stop when we throw them back onto the streets where they came from, where they are surrounded by the things that made them start in the first place, granted, doing drugs is a choice, but some children don't even have a chance. I think people who sell drugs are murderers. They know it, and they don't care. They are selling something that they know will effect everyone including the person who bought it. They are ruining lives. They should get just as stiff of a penalty as a murderer in my opinion.
Hello Cgirl:
>>>How can we as a country expect people with addictions to stop when we throw them back onto the streets where they came from,<<<
I agree, absolutely! However, imagine the possibilities. The taxes I suggest would pay for treatment on demand. You cannot change just part of the equation. It must be changed from one end to the other. Think of it. Treatment on demand for anybody with any addiction.
>>>I think people who sell drugs are murderers. They are selling something that they know will effect everyone including the person who bought it. <<<
Illegal drugs are priced high because the dealer thinks he should be highly rewarded for committing felony's. If drugs were legalized, the street dealer would be OUT of business. The price would drop precipitously. He couldn't compete with the convenience store on the corner.
By the way, why don't you think the guy selling cigarettes in your corner bodega is a murderer? The cigarettes he sells kills 10 times as many people as all the illegal drugs combined do. I don't think cigarettes are good either, but in a free society they should be available, and that's as it should be. Adults should be able to make the choice to stay high or smoke cigarettes if they want to. Children are a different matter.
>>>but some children don't even have a chance<<<
The drug war has been going on for 50 years. Billions and billions of dollars have been spent. Thousands and thousands of years have been served in prison. Countless families have been destroyed. And yet, what you say is still true today, just as it was when we started the drug war. Don't you think it might be time to try something new?
excon
I do not see legalizing drugs wouild take care of the drug problem. There should be more money spent on rehabilitation than prisons. I am not saying they should not go to prison, but prison has become a big business. There has got to be some rehabilitation. You can get drugs in prison so life does not change for most of those people. The war on drugs has certainly not worked, so it seems time to look for alternative answers.
I agree people who sell drugs should be accountable for anyone who dies as a result of their drug. Maybe that is what the next lawsuits should be about. Targeting drug dealers. Sue them in civil court and then they should be tried for murder criminally. Do you think that would change their mind. But if the government continues to do what they do now, by letting them go free IF they become an informant and get the guys that work for them put away, that would not help either. The justice system needs to get serious about getting the actual "king pins".
That is my soap box, I have had my heart broken by death by drugs.
I have seen so many people go through the "latest, greatest treatment program" and then fail. It does not work with Meth. I am sorry... it just does not work. How do I know? Being a retired probation officer in a town where I still see my old clients (and read the obituaries) and the fact that my very own Son is one. When a person does meth, they lay their life on the Roulette table. Very few just play with it then leave it be. Most deal with it for the rest of their lives. And for most of them, that is a shortend version of their original life. Meth is poison and if people can't leave it alone on their own then someone needs to step in and do it for them. I say we increase the tax on your cigarettes but not my beer ( :D ) and then hire even more DEA agents. That way, these poor souls will stop climbing my backyard fence and quit stealing my chickens, lawn mowers, chain saws and my ice chests full of beer that I forgot to put in for the night! :mad:
Totally agree, I've been to amsterdam twice and its laws and regulations seem so much under control compared to some other countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chery
I still believe legalising Class C drugs would reduce crime and drug rates.
Besides smoking marijuana is just as harmful as smoking cigarettes, its not the marijuana itself that's harmful really it's the tobacco put in it. So I don't see a problem once you can buy cigarettes from anywhere with no problems at all.
I agree Meth is poison. It definitely is hard to get off, yet not impossible. I have seen programs that work, people that are clean. It is like any other addicition, it only works if you want it to work. If you continue to hang around others with addictions, you are going to stay in the gutter rut. One can always justify, oh just one hit, everyone does it. We all know alcoholics that do the same thing. They will justify it and find someone who will do it with them and help them justify that it is OK. There is more than just taking an addiction away from any addict. They have to learn to live their life differently and not trade one addiction for another, have support from family and friends, clearly understanding what it does to yourself and others.
I have seen it work and I have seen it fail. It is an epidemic and even if we can do something to save 1/4th or 1/3rd of the addicts, wouldn't it be worth it?
It has got to be expensive putting all of these people in prison again and again.
Magpro, it sounds like you were in law inforcement, how much does it cost to house an inmate?
Hello again:
If were going to have a discussion about drugs, let's at least keep it to the facts. Tobacco kills 450,000 people, in this country alone, every year. Marijuana never killed anybody - ever. There is NO tobacco in marijuana - none.
If there are any other drug myths you want debunked, just ask.
excon
PS> Some European pot smokers, at the consumer level, DO mix tobacco with their joints. What a revolting thing to do.
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