Do you think that the government should either build a fence across the us-mexico border or do something else to stop the flow of illegal immigrants?
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Do you think that the government should either build a fence across the us-mexico border or do something else to stop the flow of illegal immigrants?
Something that I thought of (and I do have witnesses) before Bill O'Reily said it:
National Guard troops. What better way to train them in a border-defense type situation should they be in a war?
XenoSapien
What about a North American Union like the European Union?
Bush approved of a new large highway for trade from Mexico to Canada... looking ahead, the corporate Republicans are and dragging along the religious Republicans with promises and propaganda.
Hello space:
Sure. He should just make 'em legal. What?? All they want to do is wash your dishes. Don't you like clean dishes??
excon
If only the U.S. would change and improve its immigration policies, no fence or sharpshooters would be necessary.
The US should complete the fence that has been approved for and budgeted for by Congress and signed into law by President Bush . That would be a starter. I do not care one bit that it would not be 100% effective. It would slow down the rate of the flow of illegals into the country .
I would also get tougher on employers that hire them . The Del Monte plant was raided and some illegals were arrested. They wanted to replace them so they put out the word they were hiring . There was a long line of applicants. So much for "doing the work Americans wont do" .
Only after these are in place should the country address the need to expand visas. There is a definite need to stream-line the process. But the nation should only tolerate legal immigrants .We should know when they are here and when they leave at all times.
The situation has gotten out of hand and something needs to be done soon. For whatever reason the federal govt is dragging it's feet (which I suspect has to do with the large number of "anchor babies" who will have voting rights in the future), which is making local govts take action. My county and a neighboring county is currently working on ways to deny county services to illegal immigrants. It sends a clear message - if you are illegal you are going to have a tough time living here, so go live somewhere else. The federal govt needs to do SOMETHING; fences, moats, sharks with frickin' laser beams on their heads...
How about the fact that they are taking your money but not giving back? They can do whatever they want and what happens? They just get deported... that's it. No jail.. no prison, just get sent back home. If they want to come to the US... do so legally
I have picked, and packed crops before. You can't say no white person would do that. I am from the agricultural capital pretty much of the United States. Yes, the hispanics do a good job around there, but there are plenty of white people that do it too.Quote:
Wondergirl agrees: They pick our crops too, don't forget. What white person wants to slave (bent over for hours) out in a hot, dirty field and get all itchy?
I believe the borders should be closed. They are draining this country and have no business here if they don't belong here. I don't mind the ones that come here to work, the ones that actually TRY to gain citizenship, but the ones that are perfectly happy remaining illegal and feeding off taxpayers, are the ones that pi$$ me off.
Not to mention they are trashing this country. You people from California, which is where I am originally from, know what I'm talking about. My hometown used to be so beautiful when I was younger, now its completely trashed, dirty and dingy. I absolutely love it here in Florida, and although I am moving back to California soon, I really don't want to. Something needs to be done because its getting ridiculous. I say we give California to Mexico (since that is what it pretty much is already), close the border, and try to rebuild.
Hello again,
What jillian says is true. However, there are also communities who are doing the opposite and welcoming the immigrants. That's a clear message too - if you're illegal we won't let you be exploited because of it in our community. We like clean dishes.
The federal government failed again. Local laws like these can't prevail on either side. The feds DO need to do something. Criminalizing leaf blowers, however, ain't it.
excon
What about just taking mexico over, who is going to fight it, their army ? They would all give up just to become US citizens.
We talk over all of Mexicos natural resourses, create oil jobs, beach resorts. As for as religious, mexico is actually a higher percentage Christian, so they should not have a religious issue
Hello Snave:Quote:
Originally Posted by SnaveLeber
You are really misinformed. Too much O'Reilly, huh?
I don't understand what you mean when you say they are taking my money and not giving it back. Just the opposite is true. They work. They get paychecks. They get taxes withheld. They can't file a tax return, so the government gets to keep THEIR MONEY. They're the ones getting ripped off!
I also don't understand what you mean when you say they can do whatever they want... No they can't. If they get caught, they DO go to jail. I've been there with 'em. After they're released they DO get deported.
I can't for the life of me understand how you can be so misinformed... Maybe if you just don't like darker skinned people, these things are easier to believe.
excon
The illegals that work for under the table money don't pay taxes! They have no SSN, how can they pay taxes?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello nautical:Quote:
Originally Posted by nauticalstar420
True, but MOST of 'em work for a paycheck with a fake SSN.
excon
How in the world do they get a hold of a fake SSN? Do they just make up a random number? Or does someone issue it to them?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, naut:Quote:
Originally Posted by nauticalstar420
I wouldn't use the word issue. It's more like a forgery. Employers are only required to see two documents in order to hire someone. An SS card is one, and a picture ID is another. Those are forgery's too.
excon
They steal a ssn and use it as their own or someone else steals it and sells it to them.
Most illegal immigrants are trying to better themselves but they still have committed a crime. If I speed to get to work early so I can look better to my boss, I still committed a crime, it's the same thing. I know a few people are calling for total deportation but I think most people just want to have better legal immigration, so we know who we are letting into our country. For most people it doesn't have anything to do with not liking brown people it has to do with what is legal and what is illegal.
I agree. Its not that I don't like them because of their race. I am not racist. I don't like the ones that feel they are above the law and can come and go (we don't see too much going) as they please.Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
Hello again,
It's time to present excons truth about illegal's. The fact is, they're just like you.
Let's be clear. I'm not talking about the few who are criminals. I'm not talking about the few who work for cash. I'm not talking about the few who go on welfare and use up our other services.
I'm talking about the overwhelming majority of them who just want a job to better their lives – just like you.
Here's how they're EVEN MORE like you are. Use your imagination here. Let's for a minute say that you live in Colorado. Let's say that Colorado has no jobs, or the ones there pay $.25 an hour. Let's say that there's a boom going on in the oil business in Wyoming. But, Wyoming only wants Wyomingans to have those jobs, so they make it illegal for anybody to cross their borders.
So, there you are, sitting in Colorado, looking across that imaginary line called a border at a help wanted sign. Your children are hungry. Tell me that you're not going to walk over there and go to work.
I know, there are some high handed amongst you who'll say nooooo, I wouldn't cross the border. That would be illegal. I'd go sign up and wait for years.
I have only one thing to say to those people. Bull!
excon
I understand they are trying to better their lives. I've been to Mexico quite a few times, and Lord knows I would not want to live that way either. Like I've said before, I really don't mind the ones that do it the right way. But the ones that come here illegally, and remain illegal, knowing FULL WELL they are illegal, those are the ones that bother me.
I honestly don't know. On one hand, of course I would want to feed my children and try to make their lives better, BUT, on the other hand, I'm not too big on breaking the law. Breaking the law usually equals going to jail, and I'm not real big on being locked in somewhere I can't leave.Quote:
excon agrees: I'm sure they're bothered too, by they're hungry children. You didn't answer my question. Even though it would bother you, would you cross the border to get a job?
I guess it would just have to come down to me being in that situation. And you really can't say that anyone would say "no I wouldnt cross" because there are still PLENTY of people in Mexico who stay there and haven't crossed.
I also forgot to add, for the slim few that actually do go to jail for getting caught jumping the border, how are they doing their children any good from jail? At least of they had stayed in Mexico, the children would have their parents with them.
Hello again, naut:
Nobody is in jail for just crossing the border. When they catch 'em, they just ship 'em back.
The solution, of course, isn't just to keep the borders open. We DO need to keep out the people we want to keep out. But, at the same time, we need to open up the border to the workers we need. That's a comprehensive fix that your federal government WON'T do. Shame on them.
In my view, congress is to blame. Congress let this situation happen by doing nothing over the last 50 years. We didn't mind illegal's then. Everybody had one working for them.
Then 9/11 happened, and we saw that our southern border was porous. It needs to be fixed. That's just so.
The part about this whole thing that I don't understand, is how these illegal workers, who have been here for generations, are all of a sudden, criminals.
excon
You're right. Another county which neighbors mine is refusing to do anything about their immigrant problem. To them, it's not a problem. Virginia Beach (which is a few hours from here) is often referred to as a haven for illegals.Quote:
However, there are also communities who are doing the opposite and welcoming the immigrants. That's a clear message too - if you're illegal we won't let you be exploited because of it in our community. We like clean dishes.
I agree with you there. The immigrants who are here and obeying our laws (well, aside from that whole immigration thing... ) and are integrating into our society shouldn't be criminalized. I have a friend who was brought here by his mom when he was 5. They had fake papers and they lived here, worked, went to school, never broke the law. I don't think people like THAT need to be deported. BUT, the ones who commit crimes are a different story. I remember reading a story about a guy who managed to stay in this country after being arrested because he argued returning him to Mexico would be "cruel and unusual punishment". Right.Quote:
Criminalizing leaf blowers, however, ain't it.
It's sad the socioeconomic situation in Mexico and other countries south of the US is so bad people are willing to risk their lives to come here for better opportunities. Coming across the border isn't easy; a lot of people die, become injured, and women are frequently raped by the very people helping them cross. It's sad. But the open border also allows drugs and undesirable people to come here too, and that's bad for us. I'll admit, I don't know the process, cost and time table for legally coming to the US, but let's just say it's expensive and lengthy. If our govt would devise a plan to make LEGAL immigration more steamlined and at the same time PROTECT our borders, I think we would be making a step in the right direction.
I have seen a couple of programs on Fox News showing them getting arrested for trying to jump the border illegally. But I can't really say much for television, not all of it is true.
I don't think the ones that come here for work are criminals. I think the ones that come here, feed off us, sit around, and do nothing are criminals. If they want to come here to work and better themselves and their families, that is fine. They are working for what they are getting and that is great.
Where I was born and raised now is full of Hispanics. There are some there that are there to work, but there are a TON there that don't do anything. We are starting to become overrun by the ones that are here just to be here, nothing else. I mean there has to be a limit to who can come here, and what their purpose is in being here.
Hello again:
Jillian: We agree. Naut: We agree.
They do, of course, arrest them. They even take them to a detention facility for a few days, and then they ship them back. Nobody, however, is doing time for crossing the border.
Let's all sing cumbaya.
excon
Embrace them all, make sure they get an education, a job, pay taxes, and do not go on welfare. One could wonder who is left in Mexico? The wealthy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shygrneyzs
No. There are plenty of the poor still in Mexico that choose to stay there.
I don't know about other states, but in California we have given them the benefit of the doubt and tried to educate them. Hell, everything there (billboards, newspapers, classes in school, etc.) are in Spanish. We did this to help them. They don't care.
My high school even taught in Spanish to help them get an education. Barely any of them showed up to class. They don't want an education.
HOLY CRAP! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
:D
North American Union? Political bulsh.ts. The European Union hasn't worked since the new economical undeveloped countries was accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Choux
Here are the actions that should be taken to stop the flow if illegal immigrants across the border.
1) Complete the fence.
2) Have the National Guard train in that area. Since it is almost all desert anyway, it becomes an excellent training ground for the military engagements we can expect in the Middle East for the next couple of decades or so. And while they are there training, they can also do border patrols... good training for controlling the border of a hostile environment while at war.
3) Enforce the current laws regarding illegal immigrants and the hiring thereof. People who hire illegal immigrants should face sanctions and even jail time, as per current law. People who cross the border illegally should be deported.
4) Eliminate the "anchor-baby" rules. The fact that an illegal immigrant had a baby here should not keep them from being deported.
5) Increase spending and manpower to enforce the laws instead of encouraging Immigration and Naturalization to ignore the laws.
It is that simple. By taking these steps, we can virtually eliminate the flow of illegals into the country. We can eliminate the incentive for them to come here, the incentive for people to hire them, and the ease with which they get here. Not only that, but we can severely lower the number of illegals who are already here.
Excon has mentioned that all these illegals want is to clean our dishes and mow our lawns. Aside from the fact that this is not true --- many of them traffic drugs and become violent criminals (aside from the fact that they are illegal immigrants, I mean) --- I ask "SO WHAT?"
Should the fact that "all they want is to clean our dishes" be a reason to let them in and give them legal status? I don't think so. Keep in mind that the majority do not pay taxes, and are a net COST to this country, not a producer. We have enough poverty in this country without importing it from elsewhere.
Furthermore, they are taking jobs from Americans; construction jobs, agricultural jobs, pool-cleaning jobs, lawn-mowing jobs, and dish-washing jobs. If they want these jos, then can get them in their countries of origin. If they can't find those jobs in their country of origin, IT ISN'T OUR PROBLEM. Let them overthrow their government and install one that creates a decent economy with a decent living wage. Let them bring their country's economy and wage level up instead of bringing ours down. The argument that all they want to do is wash our dishes doesn't wash with me.
And the fact that "Americans want cheap labor" doesn't hold any water either. The fact that they want cheap labor doesn't mean that they should get it. The free market should control the wages, not the import of illegal labor. If all the dishwashers in this country demand $10/hour to wash dishes, then restaurants should pay $10/hour to dishwashers, not $5/hour to illegal immigrants. If the restaurants can't survive paying $10/hour, then let them go out of business. If the only way that a business can survive is through illegal ativity, then let it not survive.
By importing illegal labor, we are not only killing jobs for unemployed Americans, we are keeping wages of Americans down artificially, and condemning illegal aliens to slave laor at the same time. In response, the government raises the minimum wage, which does nothing to help the illegal immigrants who are working for slave wages, and always lags behind the market so that it doesn't really help Americans.
By cutting off the illegal immigrant labor pool, the wages are restored to market norms which helps poor Americans, and decreases poverty levels in the USA.
There is absolutely no convincing reason to permit illegal immigration.
Elliot
We're complaining about oil consumption in the US. Deport ALL illegals to their respective countries, thereby reducing the load. Anybody who wants to immigrate starts with military service (screened, of course) or public service of some sort. They will be deployed to help the allied efforts around the US and around the world. We bring our troops home to guard the borders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Wondergirl agrees: They pick our crops too, don't forget. What white person wants to slave (bent over for hours) out in a hot, dirty field and get all itchy?
You really believe that these people like to get hot dirty and itchy because they are generally darker than Anglos? I suppose the Afros were even happier still getting hot dirty and itchy while working in the hot sun in the cotton fields since they are even darker? Right? Maybe you interpret blacks singing while they worked as a sign of happiness? After all, what white person could possibly think of singing under those horrendous conditions? No?
BTW
You, Madam are a racist par excellence!
Find me a white teenager who willingly goes out into the fields to pick crops. If you find one, he is probably the farmer's child and he/she probably isn't real happy about it. Teens don't even want to work at fast-food restaurants any more -- not high enough pay for one thing.
I'm saying more power to those not white who are willing to get hot, dirty, and itchy to harvest white people's crops for nothing pay. Why aren't whites out there in the field too?
They are! Have you seen the central valley of California? Yes, there are migrant workers working there, obviously. But there are white people doing it too. There are plenty of them that aren't farmers kids that do it because they want a job and the extra money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
The white teens nowadays aren't as bad as you claim them to be, at least not where I'm from.
**EDIT** I would also like to add that its not always nothing pay. There are some migrant workers that make more than some people that work behind a desk. And, I did the job, because I wanted to. I am not a farmer's child.
Where I am from, farming is like our culture. Everyone gets in on it. I will agree though, that the majority of the workers are migrant workers, but there are tons of white people that do it too.Quote:
Wondergirl agrees: Wow! The Midwest is entirely different.
But just because where you are from it is mostly, or all, migrant workers that do your farming, that does not make you racist. I don't see where that came from anyway.
That's because you are creating your own argument, tagging it as mine and then saying that it doesn't make sense. In any case, denial is expected since most people in the USA do their thing almost as if it were second nature and if the anyone points it out they say it wasn't really meant that way. Actually, the whole casually-inflict-and vehement-denial scenario is an almost instinctive American cultural thing. Whether Europeans or other Anglos elsewhere are in the same habit I don't know. But here in the good ole USA it's a pervasive accepted practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by nauticalstar420
If there are white people where she lives that won't do the job, and the migrant workers will, the fact that she's saying so does not make her racist. You went off on this whole "African Amercans picking cotton" thing, when it has no relevance. They were FORCED to pick cotton (besides the fact that that was a long time ago, and hasn't been applied for a while), the Mexicans CHOOSE to work in the fields. Nobody forces them to do anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
She said she wasn't racist, so she's not.
My comment, "They pick our crops too, don't forget. What white person wants to slave (bent over for hours) out in a hot, dirty field and get all itchy?" was not derogatory toward people of color but toward white people who won't dirty their hands and do what used to be called common labor. Btw, I'm the descendant of Idaho and Illinois farmers, and a thousand years ago spent my teen summers picking fruit in the orchards of western NY State.
I saw today on the news that Mexico plans to sue the US in international court to stop the fences. That's ironic. They don't care to keep their own citizens home.
For all we have to say about national sanctity and sovereignty, they apparently lack that same pride, to make the same efforts at home. What are they running from? Is Mexico such a bad place that they just can't stand it? Why can't they remain and turn things around there?
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