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Anything!Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Stuff it under your mattress, buy some antique guns, spend it all on gold, ANYTHING!
At least if you sell and get out before the huge increase, even having it under your
Bed you'll be better off, wouldn't you?
No. Read some beginner finance books.
Edit to add: actually follow your own advice and report back.
You're not even in the same vehicle!Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
I have no doubt he can and he will.
Mr. Sourpuss has turned into Mr. Doom & Gloom.Quote:
Originally Posted by progunr
I don't think a beginner finance would be useful, I think I understand fairly well.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
The more Obama talks, the more the market suffers, and this is all before he even gets
Started with his plans.
So, leave your money in a falling market, and then pay the Obama double tax when you have to sell it next year after the small business that employs you goes bankrupt.
Is there really a book out there that will tell me this?
I can't wait to read your posts in six months.Quote:
Originally Posted by progunr
Likewise!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
[QUOTE=J
Thus, for me, they are the same thing.[/QUOTE]
And, respectfully, if I put two petri dishes in front of you, one containing a human oocyte and one containing a human zygote, not only could you not identify which one was the "baby" you wouldn't be able to see the "baby." A cell is not a baby. There is no bright line in this problem, which is what makes it all so difficult.
Galveston1 wrote:
So is a person a corpse? The only thing needed is time, by your reasoning.Quote:
The earlliest cells are a BABY. The only thing needed is TIME.
You are factually incorrect and should not have given me a reddie no matter how upset by what I said. Look up "baby" in the dictionary. It is not a cell.
The difference between our arguments isn't one captured by a petri dish test. The difference is that some people on the planet choose what is best for themselves and use science and terms and calendars and "what if" stories to make it reasonable, most of all to themselves. And some people say all human life is equally precious. All of their arguments stem from trying to protect the rights of a defenseless zygote from the idea of convenience that would deny its existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by asking
That's the difference. Some argue that their being here on this planet now in full form and having "problems" make it OK to minimalize those who haven't finished forming. I don't allow that grandiose a perspective of myself.
As for the petri dish, I wouldn't need to be able to "eyeball" the difference to know that if one of them was zygote, and I didn't know which, my responsibility is in determining which one IS and giving it the shot at full formation all human zygotes deserve. Equally. So until then, I'd protect them both.
I'm crazy that way.
But do you have the right to tell me that I have no choice in the matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by JBeaucaire
Then (1) why don't you defend other human cells? Why don't you defend the rights of sperm cells and oocytes?Quote:
Originally Posted by JBeaucaire
And (2) why doesn't the prolife movement object to the fertility industry's longstanding practice of generating excess embryos that are then frozen indefinitely like little Woody Allens (in Sleeper). There are something like half a million "left over" frozen embryos. I think that's creepy. Many of their parents are grandparents now and nobody wants them except the stem cell industry. Why don't you tell these fertility clinics to stop making "babies" destined for a weird test-tube existence. When their parents die they will have to be thrown out, yet nobody objects to that. How can that be okay?
:) I don't think you are crazy, but I think you have taken a strong intellectual position that can never really be tested in the real world.Quote:
As for the petri dish, I wouldn't need to be able to "eyeball" the difference to know that if one of them was zygote, and I didn't know which, my responsibility is in determining which one IS and giving it the shot at full formation all human zygotes deserve. Equally. So until then, I'd protect them both.
I'm crazy that way.
But anyway, how far do you imagine yourself going to protect this oocyte from harm? What would you do to protect it? Just curious.
Hehe, I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but I can see the bristles rising behind the keyboard...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I know you keep hammering that point. Nobody here on the forum can tell anyone else "what to do"... heaven forbid. But I am consistently interested in the opposing viewpoint.
Lol, um... I hafta disagree with those who thought palin would have made an acceptable vice president...
The woman could barley make a speech without totally comfusing the audience and herself... she'd ramble on about things no one understood..
I have no disrespect for this woman though, I just do not see how she thought the job of vice president was acceptable for her.
One battle at a time. Someday perhaps our culture will reach a maturity level that makes that kind of respectfulness for all life possible. For now, that's beyond the scope of our discussion. Good point, though. I'll have to keep that in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by asking
I do, too.Quote:
And (2) why doesn't the prolife movement object to the fertility industry's longstanding practice of generating excess embryos that are then frozen indefinitely... I think that's creepy.
I object to it. I agree. It isn't OK.Quote:
When their parents die they will have to be thrown out, yet nobody objects to that. How can that be okay?
In my life and that of my family, it has been tested. I am not offering an intellectual position only, I present to you my real-life beliefs, one's I've had to live. This is tough stuff.Quote:
I think you have taken a strong intellectual position that can never really be tested in the real world.
Heaven forbid you misunderstand. I don't actually think this discussion will ever end with a legislative response. Our culture has to outgrow this issue. Nobody is ever going to successfully tell you or anyone else who wants an abortion they can never get one... and when it does happen, the whole battle will simply rage on.
No, this will continue until everyone decides for themselves "no, I don't need to do this." That's when it will end. Until then, we'll just keep up the discourse, OK?
As I said, it's the zygotes that are potential humans. Left to their environment they would become people, so that makes them equal in my mind. Until such time that they can speak for themselves or die of natural causes, they deserve all the support and protection we give to all our children until such time as they can speak for themselves.Quote:
But anyway, how far do you imagine yourself going to protect this oocyte from harm? What would you do to protect it? Just curious.
So, for now, I'll at least keep calmly presenting their side to those on the other side. No harm in hearing the other side, right?
No hackles, no bristles. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBeaucaire
I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home and have been surrounded by conservatives nearly all my life. That's their language you are using. They want to be the deciders for everyone. I hope science will someday solve this puzzle of exactly when life begins.
I prefer to believe science won't be needed to resolve this for us, eventually we'll all move to the 'err on the side of life" because so many of our OTHER issues culturally will be resolved, too. I know... pipe dream... a couple hundred years for that, I'm sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Meanwhile, we can just keep talking to people who AREN'T in those hypothetical extreme situations and see if can coax a few more lives into existence. Worth the effort, I say.
As you can tell, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. I'm grass-rooting the position of the unborn as worth being considered. In the end, people will do what they will.
On this issue, I'm pretty consistent, but I'm not an angry arguer. Not needed. Watch how some people get really angry... tough situation.
Yay, JB. It's a beautiful morning, and I think we've both said our peace.
Peace.
She accepted the position because she was asked to by her party. I think she was honored, as anyone would have been. She is not a stupid woman, I'm sure she knew she was in over her head.Quote:
Originally Posted by andydall
McCain's first choice was Tom Ridge. His second choice was Joe Lieberman. The RNC nixed both of them. They wanted Palin because she was 1. A woman and 2. Conservative on social issues.
McCain and Ridge would have made a very powerful ticket and probably would have won.
I disagree with your assessment. Neither Tom Ridge nor Joe Lieberman would have energized the conservative base. I don't know how many I speak for, but I seriously considered sitting this one out until Palin came on board. Conservatives are really tired of left of center politicians being touted as conservative. They are only conservative in relation to the far left. Palin is a breath of fresh air, and I hope we get to see her further involved in the political process.Quote:
Originally Posted by jjwoodhull
HI 450donn, what failed health care system in Canada ? I have lived here all my life and now 66, there is no failed health care system as far as I know, and I would be the first to know, not only benefiting from socialized medicine, but working in the healthcare sector.
ms. tickle
I guess I was speaking for myself. While he would have lost your vote, he would have gained mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
I was actually nervous that he may pick Ridge I think McCain would have definitely won PA with Ridge. When he announced Palin as his VP it just put a big smile on my face.
OK if as you say the health care system is just fine then please tell me why Canadian doctors and nurses are leaving Canada in droves to set up practice here in the USA? Why is it that those that can afford it come south of the border for surgeries that the Canadian system says they cannot have. Or are delayed for 12 to 16 weeks? If the system is so good, why is it that in many small towns across Canada the clinics are only open one or two days a week? How much of your goros salary goes for the health care system in Canada?Quote:
Originally Posted by tickle
Believe me I am not trying to be argumentative, I would like to be enlightened!
Hello 450:
I'd be curious what your sources are for the data you present. Surely there have been studies. Which ones say that? I'm not trying to argue. I would like to be enlightened.
excon
Leaving in droves? I don't see that and I have people in medecine in my family AND I work for the government. What makes you say that?Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
What surgeries are those? Yes those with money explore their options, no question about that but please supply stats from sources for your allegations and be precise about which operations.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
This proves that you have no idea how our system works. I live in a smallish town and I have 2 hospitals and 3 clinics to choose from... and that's when it's after hours at my GP's office.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
Yup, we pay for our benefit and we like it. It's a bid weigh of our backs. We see our americans friends spending hours and days gathering paperwork and begging to have a procedure covered by their insurance. And then there's the lawyers and the court time...Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
No I think you like to be argumentative.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
By the way, in case you all didn't see this. The median income for plumbers is $42,000, an income group that Obama carried by 10 points. He likewise carried those who make more than $200,000 a year by 6 points.
And of course 66% of 18-29 year olds voted for him.
This American Moment — The Surprises - Timothy Egan Blog - NYTimes.com
Maybe he does, but you didn't answer his question either. Would you mind pointing out your sources. I'm interested in reading up on that as well... and you sound informed. Can you point them out to us?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
JB,
You might want to edit your post, the inner quote is from excon not from 450donn. And yes, I too am waiting for his sources.
I only know one thing. I didn't work for l0 years being a caregiver for an elderly parent and I never had to worry about going to a doctor, or hospital. It was all covered, but I do recall when I did work that my employer paid my OHIP l00%. And by the way, now that I am over 65 my OHIP coverage gives me my meds at $2.66 each 90 count prescription. Same as anyone over 65 in Canada.
I chose to work past 65 so still working and don't pay any healthcare premiums and am not required to.
Our OHIP information is public record and can be googled in case anyone wants to to do some investigating and record seeking.
I live in a small town in Ontario and we have a state of the art hospital, a pretty good emergency care service there as well, so don't really need after hour clinics, however, there are two available within a 25 min. drive.
I am too, as some here know, in the healthcare sector and I have never heard of a mass exodus from Canada of Doctors and Nurses.
As for surgery in the States, yes, I have some elderly clients who have the money and time to seek quick care over the border. That is their option and nothing to do with being unable to have elective care done here.
here are a few links that you can read at your leisure.
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007 - 80kwww.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/health/main681801.shtml?cmp=EM8705 - 92k - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/in.../28canada.html thetyee.ca/News/2006/04/11/CanadasHealthCareCrisis/ - 41kwww.pbs.org/healthcarecrisis/Exprts_intrvw/s_glied.htm - 45k
450donn, I don't know why you are so hell bent to prove our healthcare system flawed, or in some cases non existent. Yes, I read the articles you put up. I liked the one about the woman who was diagnosed with sleep apnea but had to wait four months for treatment. We have a sleep clinic in town and people diagnosed with sleep apnea are treated right away. It is right next door to our after hours clinic; and the one about the lady waiting for cancer treatment. Kingston is our nearest cancer treatment centre where I live, and my clients go there throughout the week (and can stay in a hostel or go back home) after being treated. Another cancer treatment attached to Oshawa General Hospital.
I am secure in my knowledge of our healthcare system and know I will be treated properly when and if the time comes.
Now again, why do you want to prove that our heathcare system doesn't work ?
Plus a lot of those articles are op-ed pieces, not studies. Yes, we are considering a limited public/private setup is certain instances, but at least we don't have 40 million people without access to healthcare for fear of bankruptcy. Canadians love Canadians, what can I say.
This is a really good question. I'm hoping 450donn answers it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tickle
Maybe because the thought that it doesn't have to be the way it is in the US is unacceptable? It would be easier to accept that the problems with our system are simply a tradeoff, different problems.
People can often accept what is inevitable. But our health care system only works for some of the people some of the time, and it's problems are not all inevitable, except as a consequence of greed. I remember in the 80s, the major American HMOs had so much cash that Wall Street was trying to guess where they were going to put it because all that cash was expected to move the market.
Featured Article - WSJ.com
Yes, an opinion piece quoting the a Canadian supreme court judge:
Quote:
"Access to a waiting list is not access to health care," wrote Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin for the 4-3 Court last week. Canadians wait an average of 17.9 weeks for surgery and other therapeutic treatments, according the Vancouver-based Fraser Institute. The waits would be even longer if Canadians didn't have access to the U.S. as a medical-care safety valve. Or, in the case of fortunate elites such as Prime Minister Paul Martin, if they didn't have access to a small private market in some non-core medical services. Mr. Martin's use of a private clinic for his annual checkup set off a political firestorm last year.
More info on gov healthcare - note that this is in Obama's own home state:
Durbin: Second Surgeon under Investigation at Illinois VA Hospital (10-29-2007)
Quote:
Durbin and Obama have publicly voiced their dissatisfaction with the VA’s response to pointed questions about how the agency handled a background check before hiring Veizaga-Mendez. The senators also are concerned about the overall quality of care veterans get at the hospital and perhaps elsewhere in the VA system
Gov/ Va can't compete with private sector pay for specialists so they really have chronic scarcity and trouble retaining specialists.
If "Universal healthcare" can't compete on the basis of salary or on the basis of benefits and lifestyle issues [ less hours, less call ] - the next generation of college undergrads will not be willing to take on hundred's of thousands of dollars in debt, 7 years of delayed gratification and hard work... to be doctors.
I do not want to prove anything. You Canadians/Germans/French/Brits that have a government run health care system you are happy with , then God bless you and your system. Now, please ask yourself why is it that so many doctors come to the USA to practice their trade? Certainally not for the food!
Hello 450:
I know you're not asking me, but I got time on my hands today...
I don't disagree with you, that when people have been used to making a lot of money, and that's taken away from them, they'll go to where they CAN make the money again...
But, not ALL of 'em will. Surely you believe our friends from the North. There ARE still enough doctors there.
If you're pointing out dangers of socialized medicine, tell me how you would protect the 47 million or so un-insured people here in THIS country?? If your solution is to do NOTHING, then that's no solution at all. EVEN McCain was going to cover them.
Of course, those 47 million people DO get medical care - at the emergency room - at about 10 times what it would cost if we insured them...
excon
Through Bush's HSA's they can set aside pretax money for healthcare. With McCain's proposal to have tax credits to offset the purchase of health insurance on an individual basis, and to have ins. Co compete nationally not just regionally.
Some individuals [ mainly the young ] choose to go without health insurance. Some individuals don't have employer based health insurance.
And who pays for unisured medical costs?
First the hospitals, doctors, nurses and staff who provide the service and don't get paid, second its passed on to those who have insurance in the form of higher costs / premiums.
Any comments on the VA or the Canadian supreme court decision? - facts unfortunantly - not just opinions.
If and that is a big IF there are actually 47 million people without health care do you realize how much it would cost us ( the average working person) and as a nation to cover these so called uninsured? How many of them are illegal's? How many of them choose not to take the coverage offered by their employers? And finally how many of this 47 million simply refuse to work? See, I look at if more from a biblical prospective. Families should take care of their parents instead of shoveling them off to some government paid for nursing home. See, my daughter has one child with major medical problems, both physical and mental. Instead of going to the government to take the burden of this child, they went out and purchased health insurance for her. This in a single income household. Son in law worked hard and got a better job with fantastic health coverage so they are now taken care of. It can be done in a free society. If Government were to take over the health care system, she could have possibly been covered, but what incentive would there be to take care of this child in the parents minds? And what level of care could she have received for the rest of her life? Any health care system whether private or public will have limits on the amount of care you can receive. It is just that a public system might have lower limits and that would means that certain people with major health issues might still be shut out.
Another good example, my wife just went back to work after over 4 months off for a major illness. Two trips to the hospital totaling 19 days, 5 of those in intensive care unit. Two surgeries and possible another one in the near future. How would she have been treated under a public system? I don't know, and I certainally don't want to find out. I nearly lost her once. My fear is that under a public system she would have died.
Times acquires tape excerpts showing King-Harbor staff ignoring dying patient - Los Angeles Times
Public funded county hospital
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