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Any such "failure" is certainly not for lack of trying. The failure I see is that using the "war" metaphor gave Al Qaeda the status of a nation, when actually all they are is a bunch of self-righteous fundamentalist thugs. That's the relevant difference between Pearl Harbor and 9/11. Pearl Harbor was perpetrated by a nation. 9/11 was perpetrated by a gang.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
You apparently did not read the link I provided or you wouldn't call them just a gang.
I read it. Sure, they're smart and tech-savvy, but they're still a gang of thugs, not a nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
So, giving AL-Qaeda the status of a nation and attacking them was our failure and that is why the world was on our side after 9/11, but many of those that were, now aren't.
Interesting read on DC's point is found this week at American Thinker
American Thinker: Saving Major Coughlin
Al Qaeda may or may not be a gang ;but they desire an ummah.
Rhetorically elevating them to the status of a nation instead of treating them as the gang that they are was a tactical error that gave them more status and recognition than they deserved in the part of the world that already sympathized with them and mistrusted us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
Our strategic failure was abandoning our own ideals (adherence to the rule of law, respect for human rights, repudiation of torture). That's why many of those that supported us in the beginning no longer do.
Wait a minute, if we elevated them to the status of a Nation it would be to that of a Terrorist Nation wouldn't it? And offending those who sympathized with them ought to be of little concern to us.
I would say it was the Terrorist who abandoned the rule of law and respect for human rights. Or do you disagree?
Not at all. But terrorists have never made any pretense of holding these ideals, whereas our nation was founded on them, and they are the source and foundation of our strength and influence in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
Tom, that is right on; the failure of the government to make known to the citizens of America the jihad doctrine of world conquest, and the re-creation of a supranational Islamic Caliphate remain a potent force among the Muslim masses:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
... it would be a gross mistake to imagine that the idea of universal conquest may be considered as obliterated... the canonists and the vulgar still live in the illusion of the days of Islam's greatness. The legists continue to ground their appreciation of every actual political condition on the law of the holy war, which war ought never be allowed to cease entirely until all mankind is reduced to the authority of Islam-the heathen by conversion, the adherents of acknowledged Scripture [i.e. Jews and Christians] by submission.
American Thinker: The Muslim Mainstream and the New Caliphate
I am ashamed that when we are tortured the outrage is not the same.
Cue right wing, talk radio fantic talk.
I grew up believing my country was wonderful and safe. I'm happy that I am an American. We elect our leaders and can't guarantee they'll lead exactly as we'd like them to. Being human and in such a high position is extremely stressful. Everyone seems to be a Monday morning quarterback. Without having all the information, everyone still knows how wrong we are and what we 'should have' done. Amazing! So far, even with some bad decisions, we are still safe. I'm grateful to be right where I am.
That will never happen. I once asked someone who demanded the US provide for their country's problems while calling our government such awful names, why they felt it was our duty to take care of them and they said 'because we could and therefore it was our duty'. Hmmmph! Complain and criticize and demand but don't learn from us.
I had to spread it too. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allheart
Of course we could make up stories like that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by purplewings
"Bush lied and people died". I'm so sick of hearing that I could just spit! If there is any one man responsible for the Iraq war, it is NOT G.W. Bush. It is Saddam. Regardless of what we found when we got to Iraq, Saddam DID have wmd because he used poison gas on the Kurds. Saddam could have prevented the war by simply letting the UN inspectors do their job. He was warned repeatedly. It was Saddam's hard head that cost him his posiltion and his life.
Did he declare war on the U.S.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
You have some valids points. Technically poisonous gas is classified as a WMD. However as for the WMD's, or the lack of after we showed up, our government is well aware of other countries that are in the same category as Iraq and actually further advanced. John McCain thinks the war, at least in part, is about oil: YouTube - John McCain admits Iraq War was over oil. Personally I think Dubya just needed any excuse after being blindsided by OBL so he took his frustration out on Saddam Hussein and Iraq.
I don't think many would disagree with the war in Afghanistan. I do support Dubya's decision on Afghanistan and always have. I would had been sorely disappointed with our drugstore cowboy president had he sat on his hands. Going after OBL was justifiable to not only Americans, but the world. Iraq is a whole other ball game though. The idea that constant defiance is a trigger mechanism in many cases is valid. Unfortunately though that was nothing new for Saddam. Hell we were in Iraq just a decade earlier. We all know that Hussein was a tyrant and a murderer. He committed crimes against humanity and earned the death penalty he so deserved. Dubya's big mistake was troop deployment. If he would had just bombed the hillsides, government buildings, and military installations, most would had been satisfied to let the Iraqis figure out what to do with their tyrant government. Iraq is not going to become the 51st state of the United States, one year from now or a hundred: National/Iraq War Debt Clock.
I suspect the reason for choosing Iraq above other similar countries with similar weapons has to do with establishing a wedge in the center of those countries. We are not told all the information that goes into such a decision, not even all the senators are privy to all of it. If the war was about oil, as believed by some, then where is that oil? We could use some more, right?
The above is conjecture on my part.
Bush is also responsible for the price of gas, global warming, the JFK assignation and cover up, World War I, slavery, that speeding ticket I got last March, the decline of Vanilla Ice's rap career, Jesus dying on the cross, the common cold, three legged dogs, the decline of the elephant in Africa, everybody in the history of earth who has ever died, the increase in temperature on the sun, the Chinese government limiting only one child per couple, kids wearing baggy pants, overweight people in Western countries, that guy that jumped into a lake full of alligators and got ate, in my former hometown of Lakeland, Florida, sinus headaches, my computer being slow, and of course the lack of syrup in the coke machine at the place I ate lunch at today.
What really needed to happen, was that we should have been more diplomatic with Iraq. It's common knowledge that there was order and stability under Hussein's rule, than now. Hussein did not like terrorists, it is also fact that he executed them. The only war I can begin to agree with is the one in Afghanistan, because that's where the Taliban was operating.
Ron Paul is right. If you think that these terrorists are attacking us just because we are free, you are mistaken. It's because we are policing the world and telling them what to do, sticking our nose in the arab's business. They don't like that, that's why 9/11 happened.
If anyone thinks a bunch of people still living in tribes in the stone age in some middle eastern country is a real threat to us, then you are a sheep. I hope the Republicans lose, and lose hard this election. I'm not a democrat, and frankly I doubt it could get much worse with Obama, at least foreign nations have taken a liking to him. I just don't want McBush to be elected so I get drafted for yet another stupid conflict with no real justification.
Call me up for service when the Russians are on the Mexican border or the Chinese are flying over the Pacific Ocean, until then step off Republicans.
We were diplomatic with Hussein for many years and he became worse and worse. You know the saying: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I would never suggest that it was better over there then - than now. People were being raped, robbed, murdered whenever the fancy struck Saddam and his 'boys'. It was a terror filled life even then - and even before that.
I think we need an ally in the mideast and we were attempting to build our own. We have no one that we can trust other than Israel. We need to connect positively with an Arab population. It's easy to say Bush was wrong and this is a failure but we won't know that until more time passes. It could be the beginning of erasing hatred in the middle east and I don't think that would be considered a failure.
It doesn't matter if we like the personalities of our candidates or not. What matters is that we get someone who will try to keep us safe from terrorist (Islamic) attack. Do you really believe Obama is going to do that?? With his Muslim background... Muslim family members. Arabic buddies.
I just read one rule of Islam is there is no leaving it except in death. I don't understand how Obama was and then isn't any longer while that is a rule. I don't trust it. I will vote for someone who loves their country, has military knowledge, and doesn't need taxpayers money to keep their personal lives going...
Quote:
Originally Posted by High Max
He was never a muslim... and he obviously loves his country. You'll need to get your facts straight before you vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by purplewings
You are absolutely uninformed and should not make that statement. He wrote it in his own book. It's all over the internet, even on Snopes. How do you suggest he was never a Muslim when his father was Muslim which automatically makes him such, and he also attended Muslim schools? His stepfather was Muslim and he attended Islamic schools... "His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended. That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class.
The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. “We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque,” Zulfin Adi said. “But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played.” … Obama's younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only “for big communal events,” not every Friday.
Recalling Obama's time in Indonesia, the Times account contains quotes that Obama “went to the mosque,” and that he “was Muslim.”
Summarized, available evidence suggests Obama was born a Muslim to a non-practicing Muslim father and for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father. At some point, he converted to Christianity. It appears false to state, as Obama does, “I've always been a Christian” and “I've never practiced Islam.” The campaign appears to be either ignorant or fabricating when it states that “Obama never prayed in a mosque.”
Barack Obama and Islam
FrontPage Magazine
netwmd - Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam
Can a past of Islam change the path to president for Obama? - Examiner.com
There is so much more if you just open your eyes.
***********************
"The Illinois Democrat spent much of last week refuting unfounded reports that he had been educated in a madrassa, or radical Islamic school, when he lived in Indonesia as a boy.
“The Indonesian school Obama attended in Jakarta is a public school that is not and never has been a Madrassa,” said a statement put out by the senator's staff.
But the school did teach the Quran, Islam's holy book, along with subjects such as math and science, according to Obama, who attended when he was 9 and 10.
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“In Indonesia, I had spent two years at a Muslim school,” he wrote in his first memoir, “Dreams from my Father.” “The teacher wrote to tell my mother that I made faces during Koranic studies.”
Obama — whose father, stepfather, brother and grandfather were Muslims — explained his own first name, Barack, in “Dreams”: “It means 'Blessed.' In Arabic. My grandfather was a Muslim.”
I guess if it isn't your country being put into such a position, you don't need to look too deeply at who you elect.
I don't see the relevancy of him being a Muslim when he was younger. If you listen to him and see him outside of politics, he is a normal American with a family. I think you are following a lot of the fear mongering that the far right has been spewing about Islam for the past 8 years. He is a Christian now, if I remember correctly. He realized that Islam wasn't a religion he wanted to be apart of, and he changed it.
You can't do much when you are a kid, especially in that kind of society. You are either Muslim, or you are killed/shunned. What was he supposed to do? The same applies for me. I was raised a Christian, but I made my own decision not to follow that faith when I began to think for myself.
[QUOTE=The safety of the American people are not the forefront concern because if it was, they would have not invaded another country. I guarantee that if Bill Clinton was still in office the attacks on America would not have happened and the war would not be going on right now.[/QUOTE]
Im sorry but, if Bill Clinton or anybody had been in office, the 9/11 attacks would still have happened. Americans had still not woken up to the fact that those who hate us COULD actually cause us serious damage THAT WE HAVE TO ADDRESS.
And please, be informed: Al Qaeda attacked various U.S. embassies during the Clinton years. And he treated it as a law-enforcement issue, no big deal.
Sudan offered Bin Laden to the U.S. We had him cornered and what did Clinton do? Turned our helicopters away and let him go.
Of course afterwards Bin Laden thought the US is a joke. With our mentality back then, it was not hard to infiltrate us, and bomb us with our own airplanes and our own education. They were smart, of course they were not going to do a direct attack because our intelligence picks those up more easily.
They have used our own resources against us and I think they continue to do so.
Unfortunately I think we already are littered with sleeper cells in this country.
I did the same thing you did too. I was raised Christian, now I am of no religion, I believe in God and spirituality but not in established religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by High Max
It seems Obama has had to realize there's many things he doesn't want to be a part of anymore suddenly as he runs for president.
But anyway, I still wonder, why are the Muslims not hating Obama? Being born Muslim you cannot just leave. He is an apostate, and in radical Islam they are to be killed. Why aren't the Muslims calling him a traitor? Why don't they show the activism on the streets they showed when the Pope (barely) criticized Islam? Will they hate us more now that an apostate is heading our nation? Perhaps infidels are worse.
[QUOTE=High Max;1274272]I don't see the relevancy of him being a Muslim when he was younger. If you listen to him and see him outside of politics, he is a normal American with a family. I think you are following a lot of the fear mongering that the far right has been spewing about Islam for the past 8 years.QUOTE]
You sound as if you know him personally. He lied about ever having been a Muslim so why wouldn't he continue to lie to us in order to be elected.
The fear mongering you talk about comes from the attacks we suffered from them. It is a fact - not a game, for pete's sake. It's a matter of life or death. Wake up!
Supposedly, he was raised at a young age to become one, whether he continued practice I cannot say with 100% certainty. But at this point he is a Christian, his family is Christian, they have been attending church for years.
John McCain even said yesterday that people should not be afraid of Obama becoming president; that he is a good, decent Christian family man.
Tell me, with some of the radicals I have seen at McCain/Palin ralies shouting out "terrorist, off with his head" and other scary remarks towards Obama, are these the kind of people we want influencing the Republican party?
We need to stop with the backwoods mentality that only a white Christian man can be President. There is no secret conspiracy that Obama is going to make this some sort of Islamic nation and start imprisoning Christians and making criminals out of them, or whatever the hell these people are thinking will happen. In this day and age, that wouldn't fly anyway, even if something so ridiculous was attempted!
Even if he was a Muslim, who cares? Christians aren't the only people with morals, and only RADICAL and VOILENT Muslims are people we should be worried about. Almost any Muslim I have ever met or talked with is a normal person like you and me, normally are very tolerant and are friendly, but hate the stereotyping and militant Muslims who perform terrorist activities. We need to remember that this is the United States of America, where every man has a chance and should not be judged based on his color and religion, and should be free to express himself without being hated and smeared at every turn.
Excuse me High Max but when someone puts themselves into the position of running for President of a country, they must expect to be questioned. When the answers are lies, they should expect to be disbelieved.
There may be many many 'good' Muslims as you say, but there are truly many many radicals. Did you not notice that whenever the Muslim leaders tell them that someone has insulted their religion in some way - such as writing a poem they don't like - Muslims in every corner of the world take to the streets. 10's of thousands of them.
It's not two or three or a dozen but enough to wreak havoc wherever they go.
I see your point, and I do not like the radicals either, they are scary and I understand the concern. Maybe we are just looking at different aspects of the issue. Honestly, I can't recall an election where ANY candidate has not stretched the truth or completely made up something.
Sure they stretch the truth. That means promising all kinds of wonderful things that are not even possible to achieve. Saying you've never been a Muslim while knowing you attended a Muslim school for 4 years. And an Islam Mosque, and both your father & stepfather were Muslim - that's not a stretch. That's an outright lie. Whether it matters what religion he is isn't the question. The question is if you lie about that, what else might also be a lie.
Im sorry, but are you forgetting all the good things America does for other countries? How about during WWII, or the end of the cold war, or the Tsunami? If it wasn't for the US contributions the UN would not be able to do what it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
The United States is a generous supporter of key UN programs, funding:
* 51.4% of the World Food Program budget to help feed 72 million people in 82 countries.*
* 17.1% of the United Nations Children's Fund budget to feed, vaccinate, educate and protect children in 162 countries.*
* 14.1% of the United Nations Development Program core budget to eradicate poverty and encourage democratic governance.*
* 25.8% of the International Atomic Energy Agency budget to ensure safe and peaceful application of nuclear energy and prevent the illicit use of nuclear material for weapons.**
* 22% of the World Health Organization core budget as well as significant voluntary resources, helping to prevent and control epidemics and to improve standards of health.**
* 25% of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees budget to help protect refugees and facilitate their return home or re-settlement in another country.*
* 25% of the International Civil Aviation Organization budget to ensure safe, efficient and economical air travel.**
* These programs operate strictly on voluntary contributions.
** These programs operate on a combination of assessed and voluntary contributions.
(http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/24236.htm)
European and other countries are much less generous, this may be partially due to their less newly created wealth (as opposed to recycled wealth) to spare than a capitalist nation like us. Or it may be due to a different set of values than America.
Besides, most Americans I know are not arrogant, and much less "pompous" as you describe. Especially if we cultivate good character values and morals.
Maybe you are confusing Hollywood, or a few idiots out there, with the majority of the hardworking American people, and the American spirit as a whole.
I want to know where the "blame America" crowd gets information to back up this lopsided view that America is "an oppressive imperialist nation" or "pompous"
That said, I am not saying America is perfect (lest I be labeled an ignorant arrogant capitalist pig) but I do say we are a nation to be proud of. And what is wrong with that?
What is wrong with defending your country from people who would resort to violence against us? (whether they have a valid bone to pick with us or not, targeting innocent civilians is NEVER justified)
But these terrorist are not picking at us for policy, they are picking at us because WE are INFIDELS, who deserve to be destroyed and conquered in the name of Allah according to the Koran. In addition, is the ISLAMOFACIST MOVEMENT all over the globe. From the Ayatolla, to the Netherlands and Holland, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, UK, Islam has bloody borders.
Many clerics throughout the Muslim world dream of the day Islam will be the law of the land. And to top it off, they spew hatred int heir sermons, against Jews and the USA, on the Arab channels.
And there is funding for these madrasas and operating terrorist cells.
Most Americans really do need a wake-up call on this and go read up about it or watch documentaries.
I'M AN AMERICAN! WE KICK AZZ! I'M AN AMERICAN!
I'm really just a brainwashed idiot but please don't tell anyone. I don't want them to think I am not patriotic. Now, to be patriotic, we should pay more taxes. Just ask Joe Biden. Me and Joe man.
WE ARE AMERICANS! WE KICK AZZ! WE ARE AMERICANS! YEA!
It isn't as much about 'being a Muslim' as a child as it is about lying about it as an adult. I'd prefer a president who doesn't begin his political life blatantly lying.Quote:
Originally Posted by High Max
Plus, while we are being attacked by Muslim terrorists because we are not one of them, does it make sense to choose a president with Muslim ties?
Shouldn't our safety and preservation be of utmost importance?
I guess you won't be voting for McCain either.Quote:
Originally Posted by purplewings
He has none. If you think he does then you are simply spreading unfounded fear.Quote:
Originally Posted by purplewings
Well of course. Best to pick a president that will not wage war all over the world and make nations hates the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by purplewings
And how do you arrive at the conclusion that it would be Obama, who no one knows much of anything about, other than his background?
You don't want to know so it really doesn't matter what anyone posts.
I've been up to my ears in this election for over a year NK, so probably know more about it than you do. It is after all, my country that will be affected the most in the end. It's my children and grandchildren who will have to live in whatever mess created by this generation - this election.
So then you do know more about Obama than I. That's good. I'm not sure why you keep saying you know nothing about the man.
My sister and her family live in the US. Many countries are affected by the US. Is it a problem for people to have a worldview? I don't think so.
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