I am sorry, someone coming up to my car, I have no idea if they are armed or not armed, and after finding out you were wrong they are armed is not the time to say, oh, wish I had my gun with me.

Gerogia has just passed,and it goes into effect July 1st, that we can now carry our weapons on the mass transit, bus, subway and into state parks. Not that I had not carried mine all the time anyway, but at least now they are allowing them into some of the places where they know there is often no fast escape and where crime is more likely to happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

What this ruling finally did was put to rest this phony argument that the 2nd is not for individuals but to arm "well regulated militias".

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. " James Madison

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Arrghhh. That phony argument Elliot used to use against me all the time in gun debates. Oh I wish he was here to see his number one off-sider disagreeing with him! :)

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/politi...tml#post675348

There are lots of statistics in the above thread that will diasgree with the notion that an armed society is a polite one.

I think there are even more threads above that will agree with that notion.
;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skell

There are lots of statistics in the above thread that will diasgree with the notion that an armed society is a polite one.

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Skell perhaps in Aussie there are no individual rights to own guns but our founders thought it important enough to make it the 2nd amendment in our Bill of Rights next to free speech. I suspect it is the historical difference between the two countries where the USA had to fight for it's independence ;compared to the debate I've read about there where you still have significant numbers of people who embrace the crown.

However it looks like the debate has been renewed as more and more Aussies join in the call to create a republic free of the shackles of the Queen .

“The time has come for Australia to become a republic. The old way of governing has long been creaking and groaning.''
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd , from speech at 2020 Summit, April 2008

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

I am sorry, someone comming up to my car, I have no idea if they are armed or not armed, and after finding out you were wrong they are armed is not the time to say, oh, wish I had my gun with me.
.

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So you would be willing to kill someone on the suspicion that they were armed?

Thanks again for proving my point. This shoot first and ask questions later attitude is precisely the reason why arming the general population is a dangerous thing to do.

We have a large influx of gang members and an extremely bad drug problem with Meth and Cocaine in our area along with other things.

The citizens here are totally fed up with it and we are starting to stand up for ourselves. We have had axe murders, home invasions, people being attacked and murdered just going for a walk on our greenbelt, rapes, kidnapping, people being killed in our national forest campgrounds and the list goes on. The crimes are very violent, very horrible in nature and we can't just stand by like lambs and hope it goes away! It is not going away.

I have lived in this area most of my life, I was here first, these people coming into our area and bringing violence with them can just go back where they came from or somewhere where the people that don't believe in guns for protection live.

Our policemen are doing their best, but it is a huge area and much of it is rural and they just can't be everywhere. It is different here than in some larger cities where everyone is all in the same area. We have even had policemen shot and killed.

It is hard for us that have lived here a long time, grew up and went to school here. We used to have 30,000 people, now we are closer to 90,000 people and it is getting very scary. The axe murder was 3 houses down and a block over in my subdivision. A cop was shot 3 blocks down the other direction.

Sorry, but I really feel like my gun needs to be loaded and accessible at all times. If someone breaks into my home I am not going down without a fight! There is a very large percentage of the population in the Pacific Northwest that feel the same way and we just refuse to allow the criminals to walk on us and to take over everything we have worked to own. You can't have our neighborhood and you can't have our guns.

I hope the Supreme Court keeps on protecting the freedom's of the average citizen because someone has to.

Shirley

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Skell perhaps in Aussie there are no individual rights to own guns but our founders thought it important enough to make it the 2nd amendment in our Bill of Rights next to free speech. I suspect it is the historical difference between the two countries where the USA had to fight for it's independence ;compared to the debate I've read about there where you still have significant numbers of people who embrace the crown.

However it looks like the debate has been renewed as more and more Aussies join in the call to create a republic free of the shackles of the Queen .

“The time has come for Australia to become a republic. The old way of governing has long been creaking and groaning.’’
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd , from speech at 2020 Summit, April 2008

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I agree with you Tom. Your gun culture is definitely ingrained in your psyche seemingly for historical reasons first and foremost.

For the record I'm one of those people who can't wait for the day Australia becomes a republic. Most people do. Not that the Queen really plays any part whatsoever in our governance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skell

I agree with you Tom. Your gun culture is definitely ingrained in your psyche seemingly for historical reasons first and foremost.

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"Gun culture"? What a loaded term used almost only by those who don't understand the idea of maintaining the ability to protect oneself, not to mention the challenge of sport shooting (that's targets). The police not only can't be everywhere, they don't even have a duty to protect you (no matter what many display as 'mottos') - the Supreme Court acknowledged that. So self defense is againing ground as the natural right it is. More states are passing Castle Defense laws all the time which overrule those nonsense laws that said your first duty is to run away because if you injure your attacker you might be charged or he might sue you.

Our so-called gun culture is based on individual liberty and self reliance that historically came with settling this nation. (Tho we do owe an apology to the 'original founding fathers', the Native Americans):o

[QUOTE=ScottGem]And you really think that woman was justified in shooting? /QUOTE]

Yep! I do.

She was under attack, by an outraged idiot, two to three times her size, obviously intending to do her bodily harm. Totally justified in defending herself.

[QUOTE=ScottGem]All she had to do is roll up her windows and lock the doors./QUOTE]

If you had seen the size of this guy, how angry he was, and how aggressive his behavior was, I can guarantee you that YOU would have had no false belief that your window was going to protect you from him, in even the slightest way.

I guess by your reply, you would have sat there and gotten knocked out again, or worse, again, those are your rights, to make those decisions regarding your own safety.

I, along with many others, choose not to be a willing victim of any criminal attack.

[QUOTE=ScottGem]What if she had mortally wounded him? Would that have been justified?/QUOTE]

Another YEP!

He would have gotten exactly what he was asking for, and no one else would ever have to worry about being attacked again by this uncontrolled maniac.

[QUOTE=ScottGem]You really think, even a highly trained shooter would have been able to draw his weapon and kill the two and maybe all 4 before one of them was able to get off a shot killing him?/QUOTE]

Actually, yes, I know that I easily could have disposed of the two armed assailants. Fact is, one clean shot, in most cases, would be enough to send the others running for their lives, since they already have the mind set that what they are doing is WRONG! Sadly, if they didn't run, the body count could be higher, and yes, there is always the possibility that I could be one of them.

The night manager, had no way of knowing, if he would live or die, for the entire 20 minutes he lay on the floor, totally helpless. You know some criminals don't leave witnesses to identify them, if they are captured later.

I would rather die, fighting for my life, or the lives of those I love and care about, than to die as a coward, allowing the criminal element to have their way with no resistance.

I refuse to be a willing victim, period.

It all comes down to choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WVHiflyer

"Gun culture"? What a loaded term used almost only by those who don't understand the idea of maintaining the ability to protect oneself

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I guess the scary part to us outsiders is the shear number of people you have to protect yourself from in the US.

Hmmm lets see in Canada Firearms account for 2.4 per cent of all victims of violence . Clubs and other blunt objects accounted for 3 per cent, while knives account for another 6.2 per cent.

The solution to me is clear . All knives in Canada should be registered or banned .

That's the logic that makes you 'special'. :)

Here's an interesting tidbit.

Levittown man shoots himself at pistol inspection -- Newsday.com

Should this man have his guns returned?

I got another one for you then

Per capita the gun ownership in Canada and Switzerland is greater than in the US . And yet the gun violence is less . That would make one think that if perhaps more Americans were armed that the rate of gun violence would also drop eh ?

Quote:

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Should this man have his guns returned?

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Scott How many people on LI are admitted weekly to the emergency room with finger wounds from their lawn mowers or cutting their bagels Sunday morning ?

The Darwin Awards are loaded with stories like that .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I got another one for you then

Per capita the gun ownership in Canada and Switzerland is greater than in the US . And yet the gun violence is less . That would make one think that if perhaps more Americans were armed that the rate of gun violence would also drop eh ?

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I answered that question when you first posted it here: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/curren...ml#post1127516

Quote:

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I find that stat very hard to believe. But if canadians do have more guns they are shotguns for hunting. The lesser gun violence stat represents that fact that they are far less desperate people in these countries than in the US, or maybe they prize life to a higher degree (i.e. the taking of a life is not as glorified as it is in the US).

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Scott How many people on LI are admitted weekly to the emergency room with finger wounds from their lawn mowers or cutting their bagels Sunday morning ?

The Darwin Awards are loaded with stories like that .

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That's dodging the issue.

Perhaps it is a dodge but so is posting isolated stories of gun accidents due to careless handling . I can buy your argument that there is ample reason for regulation . But from a statistical point of view there is a correlation with loosening of the regulations and a correlating drop in gun violence. Conversely the highest rates of gun violence are found in cities with the tightest regulations . Perhaps it is not a coincidence.

Over in Canada they spend a fortune on the gun registry . Yet the trend is increases in gun violence. It is coming in the wake of other social factors there that I will leave everyone else to ponder .What NK is not saying is that gun violence was a pretty significant issue in their 2006 elections .

They of course tried to blame America for their gun "problem " and now the mayor of Toronto has pledged to fight gun violence by going after law abiding owners who practice in "gun clubs" . Delusional .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

What NK is not saying is that gun violence was a pretty significant issue in their 2006 elections .

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I didn't say that because it was never an issue... EVER! Making up stuff is a poor way to try to make your point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

perhaps it is a dodge but so is posting isolated stories of gun accidents due to careless handling . I can buy your argument that there is ample reason for regulation . But from a statistical point of view there is a correlation with loosening of the regulations and a correlating drop in gun violence. Conversely the highest rates of gun violence are found in cities with the tightest regulations . Perhaps it is not a coincidence.

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It is no coincidence.

Take a look at the homicide rates for Washington DC, where handgun ownership was banned for over 30 years.

It has consistently been the highest of any metropolitan area in the US.

Find the most restrictive gun laws or policies, and you will find the highest levels of violent crime.

Why?

Because criminals are dumb, but not stupid, they will always choose the path of least resistance.

Guns and Gun Violence - Canada 2006 Election Issue - Federal Parties on Guns and Gun Violence

Worldandnation: Canada's Liberals feel election heat over gun violence

BBC NEWS | Americas | Shooting rekindles Canada gun debate

Quote:

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Originally Posted by progunr

Find the most restrictive gun laws or policies, and you will find the highest levels of violent crime.

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I'm not certain of your causation relationship there. A possible cause of violence is a culture that glorifies violence paired with a good percentage of disadvantaged/desperate people. What do you think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

perhaps it is a dodge but so is posting isolated stories of gun accidents due to careless handling .

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But I was asking a specific question. In this instance should the weapons be returned to this person after he has shown such a careless disregard for gun safety?

No, the guns should be suspended for a temporary time (depending on theincident)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Guns and Gun Violence - Canada 2006 Election Issue - Federal Parties on Guns and Gun Violence
Worldandnation: Canada's Liberals feel election heat over gun violence
BBC NEWS | Americas | Shooting rekindles Canada gun debate

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Those were Toronto specific issues that were not issues to Canadians outside of there.

Here, let me help you out: Canadian federal election, 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

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Several issues—some long-standing (notably fiscal imbalance, the gun registry, abortion, and Quebec sovereigntism), others recently brought forth by media coverage or court decisions (the sponsorship scandal, same-sex marriages, income trusts, or Canada-United States relations)—have taken the fore in debate among the parties and also influenced aspects of the parties’ electoral platforms.

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What was your position on the gun registry ? That appears to have been very contentuous with the Conservative block thinking the money better spent elsewhere .

Scott to answer your specific question . I consider gun ownership at the same level as car ownership. Rules apply to their proper usage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I'm not certain of your causation relationship there. A possible cause of violence is a culture that glorifies violence paired with a good percentage of disadvantaged/desperate people. What do you think?

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Your statement could contribute to violence in general, no doubt about it.

The fact is, those disadvantaged/desperate people had, or have, choices to make, just like every other American.

If they choose to take a path of crime and violence, rather than a path of good education, and hard work, they are also free to choose in which areas of the country they can apply their chosen occupation.

Having chosen crime and violence, they also choose the place that the victim is least likely to be armed and prepared to fight back.

Wouldn't a large metropolitan area, with a strict ban on handgun, or gun ownership in general, be the perfect place to apply such a trade?

Or do you think that they would choose the county where it is a law that EVERY citizen MUST have a gun in the home?

Is that such a difficult concept to understand?

I hinted at other factors . That was one of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by progunr

The fact is, those disadvantaged/desperate people had, or have, choices to make, just like every other American.

If they choose to take a path of crime and violence,

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I wasn't aware that every violent criminal in the US had great opportunity but passed it up to choose a life of crime. Poor fellas.

That sounds like a statement I would expect to hear from someone who holds a socialistic point of view.

No personal responsibility, everything is someone, or something else's fault, it has noting to do with personal choices, they are not really criminals, they are all actually just victims, right?

Makes me want to gag.

But they do . Are you saying that the poor person in the US has no choice but the grab a gun and start blasting away ? Why is that not true elsewhere... only because of gun availability?Why do not they then grab whatever weapon is handy and commit the crime ?

Not necessarily a 'great' opportunity ;it certainly is a rough road . But most American families did not start living in McMansions . It often was generational struggles .But they made it without resorting to crime.

Yes, those in the US have a lot of opportunity if they wish to take advantage of it. But in many cultures doing poor in school is even expected and those that do good would be considered outcasts among their peers, in a society like that it is hard for some to do better.

Young people find preference in selling drugs to their own fellow students and drinking parties are preferred over study. There is really no true excuss for any young person in the US to go to college if they really want to.

But yes, most make a valid choice to do their crimes over working and earning a honest living. Having worked in the system and worked the streets of Atlanta with the street people, the ones given choices will prefer the street over a shelter with job training almost all the time.

I'll relate a personal story along these lines.

At the age of 18, from a lower middle class family, all of my friends were into a criminal lifestyle.

I was right in there with them, doing drugs, stealing, no job, no ambition.

A tight group of about 5 of us, did most everything together, legal or illegal.

The other 4, decided that we were going to get into stealing motorcycles. One of the 4 had an older brother with some serious connections to some high level criminals and guaranteed that we could make a fortune with this older brother disposing of the stolen bikes for us.

I went home that night, and did some serious soul searching. While some of the crap we did bothered me a little, this was a huge step up in the level of our crimes.

The next day, I went down and joined the Army.

Yep, right in the middle of the last few years of Viet Nam, I made a personal choice, to not continue a life of crime, and to do something better with my life.

While I was in basic training in Fort Campbell Missouri, I got a letter from my friends. Started the usual stuff, how am I? What is the Army like? Then, in mid sentence, the writing stopped, and in HUGE letters, across the bottom of the page, was written the words

WE'RE BUSTED!!

The door had been kicked in, they all were arrested, and 3 of the four ended up in prison.

The next day, I got a newspaper clipping from my Father, with the names highlighted, and one sentence.

Aren't you glad, you weren't here?

Personal Responsibility.

I'm sure glad I found mine.

Fr_Chuck made a excellent point. In Las Vegas, actually everywhere in the US, the public school systems focus on education is sorely lacking. Teachers are given cookie cutter text plans they have to abide by, but as we know not all children learn the same way. And he's right it's not just the peer pressure of past decades either, it's hoodlum pressure. Children attending public schools now-in-days are fighting the odds. If a parent cannot afford private schooling, or qualify the child for a magnet school, or does not have the ability and time for home schooling... the kid is at a real disadvantage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by progunr

That sounds like a statement I would expect to hear from someone who holds a socialistic point of view.

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But all I did was echo what you wrote here. Does that mean that you are a *gasp* evil socialist? You throw around this 'personal responsibility' statement when no one ever brings up the opposite viewpoint, who the hell doesn't believe in personal responsibility? You set up strawman argument for the lack of a better argument.

BTW I never chose a life of crime, ever. I'll celebrate that more that your choices anyday.

Progunr- Good story. Thanks for sharing. I think askmehelpdesk could open a firearm forum for avid hunters, conceal carry, and weekend plinkers and then perhaps a discussion board for those that want to debate gun ownership pro or con. I like reading this guy's articles here: GunOwnersAlliance.com - Ask the Rabbi is BACK! By Rabbi R. Mermelstein and reviewing firearms here: www.gundirectory.com. When I lived in Texas growing up I had a 308, 7.65 Argentina muaser, 6mm and .22 rifles, 12, 20, and 410 gauge shotguns, handgun 38 snub and .22. My brother has a 357 magnum and will retire out of the military in about 3 years. Currently he is a recruiter in Katy, Texas after multiple trips to Iraq. I've been in Vegas for 12 years plus now and have a 9mm short (.380) handy in the home office and am looking at a small Kel-Tec 9mm for conceal carry or one of the new Khar compact 45's or 40's, or maybe just another 38 snub. I also plan on getting a Ruger .22 rifle probably later this year or next , and .223 either standard rifle or AR-15. I've made a few enemies in the Casino business over the years, but Vegas is so high in crime that at least once a week you'll hear pops sounding off from the neighborhoods. I heard two pops yesterday and was just hoping it came from a car backfiring. Speaking of cars, some hoodlums tried stealing my upstairs neighbor's sports car a few day ago. Of course, my primary concern is for my family's safety and that's why I'm gun owner advocate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

But all I did was echo what you wrote here. Does that mean that you are a *gasp* evil socialist? You throw around this 'personal responsibility' statement when no one ever brings up the opposite viewpoint, who the hell doesn't believe in personal responsibility? You set up strawman argument for the lack of a better argument.

BTW I never chose a life of crime, ever. I'll celebrate that more that your choices anyday.

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If that is what you call an echo, you obviously don't know the meaning of the term.

You insinuate that just because an individual is disadvantaged/desperate along with a culture that glorifies violence, is an excuse for the personal decisions that these criminals make.

And then you try to claim that your statement in no way attempted to excuse the fact that every criminal gets to decide to commit the crime or not, regardless of a culture that glorifies violence or regardless of the fact that they may be disadvantaged or desperate.

Then you top it off by sounding insulted that I would bring up personal responsibility, and try to insult me with your last statement regarding celebrating your choices?

Surely, even you could do better than that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by progunr

You insinuate that just because an individual is disadvantaged/desperate along with a culture that glorifies violence, is an excuse for the personal decisions that these criminals make.

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I didn't say it was an excuse, you said that. I said it was possible causation. Why else would their immediate next choice be a life of violent crime?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I didn't say it was an excuse, you said that. I said it was possible causation. Why else would their immediate next choice be a life of violent crime?

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That argument won't wash. There are plenty of criminals involved in various kind of crimes who were NOT disadvantaged.