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Originally Posted by Dr D

With all due concern for my tender and precious neck; the puropse of business in the US is ostensibly to generate a profit for the benefit of the owners/shareholders, rather than the state. The degree of government control is less ominous. I think that most rational people agree that "pure" laisez faire Capitalism would not be a good thing, and that a certain degree of government oversight is necessary to prevent misdeeds and abuse.

DC, you do manage to come up with provocative topics for dicussion. Keep up the good work.

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I certainly agree, “…the puropse of business in the US is ostensibly to generate a profit for the benefit of the owners/shareholders.” The payoff for Government is in the form of election, and re-election. The History of Big Business is the History of Big Government

“"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled," said Kaiser Soze in the film The Usual Suspects, "was convincing the world he didn't exist." In a similar way, big business and big government prosper from the perception that they are rivals instead of partners (in plunder). The history of big business is one of cooperation with big government. Most noteworthy expansions of government power are to the liking of, and at the request of, big business.”

Big Business and Big Government

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

On the one-hand, we have windbags screeching out warnings that America is destined to become Fascist!

On the other-hand, there are phrasemongers belching warnings about the inherent evils of a Socialist America.


But where do these profits of doom draw their arguments from… sewers and drainpipes no less.

My question is…what are the respective essentials that would have to change in order for these prophecies to become true?

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Just me being lazy again here, DC, but could you take a minute to define both Fascism and Socialism from your own personal viewpoint?

You see, to history buffs, there is far more similarity between the two than there are differences.

BTW, are you familiar with Godwin's Law?

It doesn't take anything but fear to bring this position about. Fear of the terrorist is as good a place to start as any, what freedoms have been eroded because people fear terrorists? How do you deal with terrorists, with a heavy hand of the police state where everything is minutely scrutinised. Very soon your country will become isolationist because the cost of interbational engagement is too high, when that happens, you will be prone to dictatorship. There are no real dangers in a socialist country, unless it is that the right to rip people off will be taken away, the real danger is in heavy handed bureauracracy because both facsism and socialism are bureaucratic, legalistic regimes which can only be curbed by strong democratic government

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Originally Posted by iamgrowler

Just me being lazy again here, DC, but could you take a minute to define both Fascism and Socialism from your own personal viewpoint?

You see, to history buffs, there is far more similarity between the two than there are differences.

BTW, are you familiar with Godwin's Law?

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Growler
Yes, I'm aware of the theory, not sure I agree but...

I purposely perused characteristics, rather than definitions as a method of analysis because better comparisons can be made.

I’ll post them again…

1)Fascism is an extreme right wing ideology which simply means that they are against every any other ism.

2)Nationalistic to the point that criticism of the nation's main ideals, especially war, is decidedly an unpatriotic act at best, and treason at worst. Consistently broadcasting threats of attack, while justifying pre-emptive war.

3)Fascist hierarchy requires a righteous leader, who is supported by an elite secret group of capitalists. Those who oppose the social hierarchy of fascism are imprisoned or executed.

4)Fascism loathes the concept of equality, particularly immigrants or religious rights.

5)Fascism embraces capitalism where corporate power is absolute and workers' rights are destroyed.

6)Fascism is capitalism at war. War creates markets that otherwise would not exist. Destroys infrastructure that then requires reconstruction. Fascism then can provide huge loans to that society so fascist corporations can begin the process of rebuilding.

Well, what do you think?

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Originally Posted by paraclete

it doesn't take anything but fear to bring this position about. Fear of the terrorist is as good a place to start as any, what freedoms have been eroded because people fear terrorists? How do you deal with terrorists, with a heavy hand of the police state where everything is minutely scrutinised. Very soon your country will become isolationist becuase the cost of interbational engagement is too high, when that happens, you will be prone to dictatorship. there are no real dangers in a socialist country, unless it is that the right to rip people off will be taken away, the real danger is in heavy handed bureauracracy because both facsism and socialism are bureaucratic, legalistic regimes which can only be curbed by strong democratic government

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The possibility favors history.

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Growler
Yes, I'm aware of the theory, not sure I agree but...

I purposely perused characteristics, rather than definitions as a method of analysis because better comparisons can be made.

I’ll post them again…

1)Fascism is an extreme right wing ideology which simply means that they are against every any other ism.

2)Nationalistic to the point that criticism of the nation's main ideals, especially war, is decidedly an unpatriotic act at best, and treason at worst. Consistently broadcasting threats of attack, while justifying pre-emptive war.

3)Fascist hierarchy requires a righteous leader, who is supported by an elite secret group of capitalists. Those who oppose the social hierarchy of fascism are imprisoned or executed.

4)Fascism loathes the concept of equality, particularly immigrants or religious rights.

5)Fascism embraces capitalism where corporate power is absolute and workers' rights are destroyed.

6)Fascism is capitalism at war. War creates markets that otherwise would not exist. Destroys infrastructure that then requires reconstruction. Fascism then can provide huge loans to that society so fascist corporations can begin the process of rebuilding.

Well, what do you think?

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Well, you only described your definition of Fascism, DC.

What about Socialism?

And #4 where it pertains to immigrants is the polar opposite of the Mental Midget in Chiefs stance on the issue.

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Originally Posted by iamgrowler

Well, you only described your definition of Fascism, DC.

What about Socialism?

And #4 where it pertains to immigrants is the polar opposite of the Mental Midget in Chiefs stance on the issue.

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1) Centralization of economy.

2) Land reform, collectivization of agriculture, as well as the nationalization of leading industries.

3) Publicly funded health care and education

4) Nationalistic views

Cuba is the only successful model we have of a purely socialistic government.

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Cuba is the only successful model we have of a purely socialistic government.

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Successful as defined in wealth being purged from all except the Castro elites (sorta like the pigs in the barn of 'Animal Farm' )

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Successful as defined in wealth being purged from all except the Castro elites (sorta like the pigs in the barn of 'Animal Farm' )

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I suppose you have something of substance to offer besides American propaganda?

I find it interesting that in spite of all America had done to assassinate Castro, to bankrupt its economy, to force it to Democracy; there it stands in spite of all the American aggression. And I can’t help but wonder if Cubas’ citizens dedication to their government had something to do with it.

I can’t help but wonder how better the standard of living might be if it were not for America’s embargo.

I think it telling that Cuban President Fidel Castro has challenged the American and European governments to duplicate its ability to educate and provide health professionals to serve the needs of impoverished people around the world.

In spite of the lies we have been told about Religious persecution (CAJM), exists as a non-profit organization dedicated to assisting with the revitalization of Jewish life in Cuba and to working to improve the physical and spiritual well-being of the Jews of Cuba and the new Cuban Olim to Israel.

You will note of course that Cuba just banned their boxing team from competing outside the country fro fear of defections. I have worked with plenty of Cubans who's opinion of Castro is not as kind as yours .

But I do agree that the US embargo has overgrown it's utility and does not serve our purpose. Once expats were allowed back in with all that filthy gringo $$$ the country would rapidly change. Ahh I can see it now ; posters extolling the virtues of collectivism right next to billboards from hedonistic beach front resort hotels .

Coming straight from an American propagandist ; Raul Castro in his address to Cuba at the July 26 Moncada anniversary celebrations admitted to the world that the average Cuban worker was severely underpaid... about $12 /month in his words not enough to cover necessities . He said low wages caused corruption(sorta the reverse from the typical socialist mantra) , and he called for structural changes.He also talked of the need for a larger role for private enterprise.

Anyway ;don't get me started on personal liberties there ;They are nonexistent. The difference I guess between a totalitarian state like Cuba and let's say Burma is that human rights organizations at least recognize dissidents like Aung San Suu Kyi of Burma. Cuban dissidents are not given the time of day by the same groups.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

You will note of course that Cuba just banned their boxing team from competing outside the country fro fear of defections. I have worked with plenty of Cubans who's opinion of Castro is not as kind as yours .

But I do agree that the US embargo has overgrown it's utility and does not serve our purpose. Once expats were allowed back in with all that filthy gringo $$$ the country would rapidly change. Ahh I can see it now ; posters extolling the virtues of collectivism right next to billboards from hedonistic beach front resort hotels .

Coming straight from an American propagandist ; Raul Castro in his address to Cuba at the July 26 Moncada anniversary celebrations admitted to the world that the average Cuban worker was severely underpaid....about $12 /month in his words not enough to cover necessities . He said low wages caused corruption(sorta the reverse from the typical socialist mantra) , and he called for structural changes.He also talked of the need for a larger role for private enterprise.

Anyway ;don't get me started on personal liberties there ;They are nonexistent. The difference I guess between a totalitarian state like Cuba and let's say Burma is that human rights organizations at least recognize dissidents like Aung San Suu Kyi of Burma. Cuban dissidents are not given the time of day by the same groups.

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I’ll grant you, capitalism was not compatible with Stalin’s Socialism, but it has never been incompatible with Trotsky’s; so, filthy gringo $$$ is a strawman.

Why should anyone expect that Socialism means a stagnant form of government; Democracy certainly evolves, why not Socialism? Democracies have had its dissenters and defectors, why expect none to defect from Socialistic countries.

Sure Cuba has its poor. Have you visited the filthy streets of any major city in America, where the thousands of poor have their push-carts pulled near while they sleep on a mound of urine and other filth- all the while just blocks away in posh high-rises other people are living in luxury?

How many failed Democracy’s have there been…What about the Brutality of Nazi Germany, for one.

You talk about personal liberty, what is liberty but the opportunity to steal from you. And material things like your home, as people that live in America in the late twenties and thirties what happened to their material things.

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Originally Posted by iamgrowler

Well, you only described your definition of Fascism, DC.

What about Socialism?

And #4 where it pertains to immigrants is the polar opposite of the Mental Midget in Chiefs stance on the issue.

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Better yet

Socialism is cap’atiolism with a cap on it.:D

The inherent flaw in Socialism is that it gives human nature more credit than it deserves, by assuming that mankind is inherently altruistic rather than egoistic. The concept of "from each according to his ability, and to each according to their need" is a heartwarming platitude, but does not work in the real world. The GREED factor has been much maligned in popular culture. (ie Mr. Gecko in the film Wall Street). Capitalism, with all of its many shortcomings is responsible for lifting the standard of living for most (not all) of the world's population. If you look up the poorest nations of the world, you will find that they have the least regard for private property rights, and the rule of law. Capitalism sucks, but it sucks less than the other isms.

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Originally Posted by Dr D

The inherent flaw in Socialism is that it gives human nature more credit than it deserves, by assuming that mankind is inherently altruistic rather than egoistic. The concept of "from each according to his ability, and to each according to their need" is a heartwarming platitude, but does not work in the real world. The GREED factor has been much maligned in popular culture. (ie Mr. Gecko in the film Wall Street). Capitalism, with all of its many shortcomings is responsible for lifting the standard of living for most (not all) of the world's population. If you look up the poorest nations of the world, you will find that they have the least regard for private property rights, and the rule of law. Capitalism sucks, but it sucks less than the other isms.

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That is a philosophy right out of Nietchze, and Schopenhauer:D

I purposely perused characteristics, rather than definitions as a method of analysis because better comparisons can be made.

I'll post them again…

1)Fascism is an extreme right wing ideology which simply means that they are against every any other ism.

2)Nationalistic to the point that criticism of the nation's main ideals, especially war, is decidedly an unpatriotic act at best, and treason at worst. Consistently broadcasting threats of attack, while justifying pre-emptive war.

3)Fascist hierarchy requires a righteous leader, who is supported by an elite secret group of capitalists. Those who oppose the social hierarchy of fascism are imprisoned or executed.

4)Fascism loathes the concept of equality, particularly immigrants or religious rights.

5)Fascism embraces capitalism where corporate power is absolute and workers' rights are destroyed.

6)Fascism is capitalism at war. War creates markets that otherwise would not exist. Destroys infrastructure that then requires reconstruction. Fascism then can provide huge loans to that society so fascist corporations can begin the process of rebuilding.

Well, what do you think?[/QUOTE]
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Earlier it was said that American capitalism is more fascist then socialist but:

1] socialists are favorable to other "isms" ? Like capitalism.:)

2] Socialist exaggerate threats to gain power, just in a different manner:
- healthcare is abysmal, we need more government
- public education is in trouble is in trouble, we need more funding and are against
Vouchers and tuition tax credits
- "global warming" - auto manufacture mpg mandates etc..

Today's corporations' only allegiance is to the bottom line, not a 'nation. ' thus
Out sourcing; far from being nationalistic they want a global economy.

3] sounds more like extreme political correctness

4] if poor imigrants drive down the cost of labor, would capitalists care?

5] Most businesses know that benefits are a competitive bargaining tool for labor,
And that most workers would leave for better jobs if the current working conditions
Are so bad. So, generally speaking, it is good for the bottom line to have content
Workers.

6] Is the US getting rich off Iraq ? I thought we were going into debt for this.


Grace ad Peace

I am so glad that Nietzche and Schopenhauer agree with my take on human nature, and perhaps that of Mark Twain (read The Devil's Racetrack), perhaps the greatest philosopher that this young nation has produced. Please consider the following example of motivation: When any one of us contributes funds to a worthy charity, or gives a few bucks to a homeless person; why do we do that? It make us feel good. If it did not make us feel good, we would not do it. The bottom line is that we are all motiveted by egoism, even though that pursuit of self interest has benefits to society. If poor old Nietzche had not made that unfortunate remark about God being dead, he might not be the stuff of bumper stickers.

Ps- I am not a nihilist, just a realist.