Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

With that being said, the reason I question your locality on 9/11 is that I find it hard to understand that anyone that lived through that HELL can not understand why it is better to take the fight away from our soil. Iraq may not have been the best choice but it has caused the terrorist (ie the Insergency) to attack those that is the job to fight. Citizen should not be at the front line.

---

I think you have misunderstood Scott here. Nowhere did he state that he would rather have the war against terrorism fought on American soil. In fact I would think just the opposite. Especially since he was in the towers when they were attacked. I am sure that he would not want any other American citizen to have to go through what he went through.

I think what Scott is saying is that Bush should be more concerned about Afganistan then Iraq. Which I agree with him on. We should be attacking the people that attacked us. But now we are in Iraq and I fear that the outcome will be similar to NAM.

That being said, I will support my troops wherever they maybe. They are not at fault here. They go where they are told to go. And thank God for them because without them I would not be able to live in a country as wonderful as the US is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

Please specify which comment you are talking about when I used the Comment Feature.

---

Here's one from Post #2:
RetiredNavy disagrees: How, by reducing taxes and keeping job employment high.
Here's another from Post #3
RetiredNavy disagrees: Listen to someone from Canada where they have a failing medical system and 50% tax rate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

This is very intersting comment considering the entire thread is doing just that except with Bush. Many have accused Bush of lieing and are questioning veracity absent of proof. It is amazing how upset when people get when there actions are repeated against them by others.

With that being said, the reason I question your locality on 9/11 is that I find it hard to understand that anyone that lived through that HELL can not understand why it is better to take the fight away from our soil. Iraq may not have been the best choice but it has caused the terrorist (ie the Insergency) to attack those that is the job to fight. Citizen should not be at the front line.

---

The problem is that there IS evidence to support Bush's or at least his administration's lies. So questioning his veracity is reasonable.

As I said in an earlier post, I had no problem with and supported our actions in Afghanistan. That was a valid response to 9/11. Iraq wasn't and isn't.

I can understand how someone, especially with a military background ,would find it hard to understand how someone could experience 9/11 as I did and feel the way I do. But that still doesn't justify your calling me a liar. Which you still haven't apologized for.

I find it hard to respect the views of someone like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

Iraq may not have been the best choice but it has caused the terrorist (ie the Insergency) to attack those that is the job to fight.

---

Hello again, Navy:

According to you, Iraq wasn't a very good choice. But, apparently it doesn't make much difference, because (according to you) the objective wasn't to remove WMD's, but to get the terrorists to attack us.

Huh??

We could have invaded, let's say, Libya, and they would have attacked us there too. No? Why not there? What?? Afghanistan wasn't a good enough place to attack us?

No Sir, I don't know where you're coming from, but it's clear that you bought all the propaganda Bush fed you. Please don't insult me by calling it inside military information.

excon

OK, do I believe that our Government (including Bush, Congress, Senate and House of Representatives) have made mistakes about Iraq, the answer is "YES". The is more that lead to Iraq than just the belief of WMD, like invading Kuwait and then ignore the U.N. mass killing his own people, etc, etc. I seems that history was repeating itself, like Hitler. It does not matter that there were no WMD's found, what matters is that the majority of U.S. citizen, Congress, Senate, House of Representative, and Bush made a choice. My belief that we are doing what is the right for the World, the U.S. and the Iraqi people and that region.

Scott

I did not call you a liar, I said that I did not believe you. There is a significant difference between the two. If I called you a liar that should be based on fact, when one does not believe someone else statement, then it is based on opinion.

As fare as the disagreement, both statements are facts although the second on was a mixture of both fact and opinion. With that I did make a mistake. Live and learn.

For Bush administration lying, again is based on fact (Hard evidence) or is it based on opinions. Is there a possibility that lies have been told, definitely and I would not put it past any definitely. Even within this thread, I believe Bush has made some failing errors and not delivered what the people thought he would.

- The Prescription Drug reform, what a crock that will cost us more than the war will.

- Campaign Reform, another crock in that all it really does is allow those that make a career out of being a politicain stay in office longer.

And this list goes on, but I also believe he is human and makes mistakes like the rest of us. I would never what to be in his shoes of having to make the decision that he has too.

I am sorry RN but I have to respectfully disagree with you. The parents and the families of the service men and women would probably disagree too.

Oh and you left off one other reason for GWB to invade Iraq... he had to finish what his father couldn't. Of course it does not look like he will be able to finish it either...

It is difficult to respond to people that have a one track mind. The world is not a black and white solution. There is a lot of grey between the two. Iraq is one of those issue that fit into the grey area. Bush made a severs mistake by convincing the people that Iraq was necessary due to WMD's alone. I believe that if he had stated everything such as the U.N. violations, the mass killings of his own people, possibility of developing WMD (there is good evidence that he was), the increased opportunity to harbor terrorist (he had such a great issues with America that he would have), and funneling money to fund terrorist activties (good evidence of that too), then Bush would not have created the issue he has. I stated that to many before the war began that he need to give more than just WMD to the American people.

Also, if I was to believe in the so called Bush propaganda then I would say he has not been made any mistakes and that he was the best President we have had. I do not believe that and as one other post stated, compared to the other choices of the last election, he is the better choice.

Tuscany,

I have to disagree with you. There are some parents and family of the fallen solders that do not believe that we (the Military men) are there for a good cause, there are many/most that do. How many military families do you know to base you opinion? I know many, some have lost loved ones in the war zone. My sister just deployed there last week, and I have had several cousins there and I believe in them. Please remember, we are an all voluntary force, meaning we do not have to serve, we serve because we believe in our country. Even with the war, the services are not having issues in brave citizens joining.

We have to finish this war and leave a capable Iraqi government in place. If not, Iran could easily walk in and take over thus turning the situation into a more difficult one. They are a severe threat both with WMD's (nuc's) and they also have a significant military power. A conflict with them would be much more bloody than what we have today. Additionally, if that was to happen, do not complain when oil prices raise though the roof and terrorist attacks significantly increase. To day, we are in a Global Economy, what affect one region affects the whole world.

RN-
I think you miss understood me. I support the troops that are over there 100%. And how many do I know... just my 2 cousins, 3 friends that I graduated with, my mom's best friend's son, and countless former students. And that does not include the number of people that I know in the national guard.

I believe in every single one of them. I believe that they will try their best, that they will work hard, that they will do all that they can do to remain safe and fight for out country. And yes I am well aware that signing up for the military is voluntary. However where you are stationed is not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Well that's not too hard. I think that most Canadians have more knowledge of foreign countries than most americans. :)?

---

For some reason, I agree. Maybe a little true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You are correct. I misread your comment about north and south, my apologies.

---

Accepted! By the way, I just got back from Quebec City. Very lovely place with a great culture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You sound very familiar, have you ever been on this site before?

---

Nope, new to this place. My wife was telling me about the site. She tweaked my interest, so here I am.

I may be naïve, but I don't believe that this nation has ever had a President who took actions that he knew to be against the interests of the US and its people. The demonization and abject hatred that the Left has for GWB, make reasonable discussion of his policies difficult. Past Presidents have made grave mistakes from the war of 1812, to The bay of Pigs... and future Presidents will make more. The people who believe that GWB went to war to enrich his oil buddies and Hailburton; and who still cling to to the debunked conspiracy theories about 9/11, in my opinion have a tenuous grasp on reality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuscany

I support the troops that are over there 100%.

---

Sorry being harsh, but from personal experiences and speaking for others serving. That term is a bunch of bull. Actions speak louder than words. If you believe in the troops, especially those going on there 3rd and 4th tours (which you cannot do that many in a single enlsitment) then those that us that term would trust what they (ther troops) feel is right. If the troops say they need to stay and finish the job, then those that support them would push the government to finish the job. If you supported the troops then you would not support the media that only presents the things that have gone wrong but only those that tell the good and the bad. The American people (including the Government) say they support the troops but there action say something different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuscany

However where you are stationed is not.

---

Very true, but when you volunteer when people are fighting overseas should you think that you are not going to fight also.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dr D

I may be naive, but I don't believe that this nation has ever had a President who took actions that he knew to be against the interests of the US and its people. The demonization and abject hatred that the Left has for GWB, make reasonable discussion of his policies difficult. Past Presidents have made grave mistakes from the war of 1812, to The bay of Pigs...and future Presidents will make more. The people who believe that GWB went to war to enrich his oil buddies and Hailburton; and who still cling to to the debunked conspiracy theories about 9/11, in my opinion have a tenuous grasp on reality.

---

I do not believe you are naïve, that what I have been attempting to spread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

OK, do I believe that our Government (including Bush, Congress, Senate and House of Representatives) have made mistakes about Iraq, the answer is "YES". The is more that lead to Iraq than just the belief of WMD, like invading Kuwait and then ignore the U.N., mass killing his own people, etc, etc. I seems that history was repeating itself, like Hitler. It does not matter that there were no WMD's found, what matters is that the majority of U.S. citizen, Congress, Senate, House of Representative, and Bush made a choice. My belief that we are doing what is the right for the World, the U.S. and the Iraqi people and that region.

---

Had Bush Sr finished the job when the opportunity existed, I would have had no problem with that. Sadaam badly underestimated how the US and the Arab world would react to the invasion of Kuwait. He got his nose badly bloodied. But I think he also learned a lesson. I think the evidence shows that he was content to rule his little corner of the world and no more. I think he enjoyed thumbing his nose at the US and that was his undoing. But I don't think he presented a credible threat to the security of the US or the world after Desert Storm. This was my opinion before Dubya's big mistake and nothing that has happened has given me any reason to change that opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

Scott

I did not call you a liar, I said that I did not believe you. There is a significant difference between the two. If I called you a liar that should be based on fact, when one does not believe someone else statement, then it is based on opinion.

---

Sorry, but I don't see any difference between the two let alone a significant one. If you don't believe a statement someone made, then you believe they are not telling the truth which makes them a liar. Obviously it is your OPINION that I wasn't there, because you have absolutely no proof that I wasn't, nor any proof that I would lie about it. What's worse, you have made no attempt to back off on your opinion, even though you have no facts to support it.

Unfortunately, I have no way of proving it to you. I know what the truth is. I have to live with the memories and the consequences.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

Sorry being harsh, but from personal experiences and speaking for others serving. That term is a bunch of bull. Actions speak louder than words. If you believe in the troops, especially those going on there 3rd and 4th tours (which you cannot do that many in a single enlsitment) then those that us that term would trust what they (ther troops) feel is right. If the troops say they need to stay and finish the job, then those that support them would push the government to finish the job. If you supported the troops then you would not support the media that only presents the things that have gone wrong but only those that tell the good and the bad. The American people (including the Government) say they support the troops but there action say something different.



Very true, but when you volunteer when people are fighting overseas should you think that you are not going to fight also.

---

Well now thanks so much for assuming that you know so much about me. Funny, that is exactly what you did to Scott too.

I do support the troops. I DO think that mainstream media does nothing but preach gloom and doom. Do not tell me who I support and who I don't. And since you don't know me you don't know what I have done to show support to the troops. But, since the best you can do is throw insults around... I am not surprised.

Oh and yes you can support the troops without supporting the government that puts them there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by djkennedy89

What does President Bush believe?

---

Just for starters:

1. That he was chosen by God to be president.
   
2. That his obligation to "protect the American people" is more important than his oath to "protect and defend the Constitution".
   
3. That he is not obligated to obey laws he doesn't agree with.
   
4. That scientific results that don't support his policy preferences and political goals should be disregarded and supressed.
   
5. That he alone has the authority to declare any person to be an "unlawful enemy combatant" and to deprive that person of all legal avenues to challenge this designation or his indefinite imprisonment without charge.

I quess it boiles down to upbringing and culture. Here is a perfect example to me, excon profile say he is a CEO of a fortune 500 company and I challenged that considering his boasting about be arrested numerous times. He commented back stating that he ownes the company. Well, to be a Fortune 500 you have to be a publicly owned company. Fact verse opinion. My first statement was an opinion, however, I have the facts and I can say it is a lie. Fortune 500 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you where there than, I am so sorry that you where and I must apologize for my statement. I cannot even fathom the horror. Even, being all of the places that I have been and military conflicts that I have been in I have never been a part of a situtation like that, only present afterwards.

You are correct that you have know way to prove anything, the same as I do not when it comes to personal experiences or knowledge. After all, my words are just a bunch of trons transmitted around the world, like you. Opinions are just that opinions.

Hello Retired Dude:

If a joke has to be explained, it looses it's punch. I guess I should have considered that some people aren't smart enough to get it. Ok, my bad.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuscany

Well now thanks so much for assuming that you know so much about me. Funny, that is exactly what you did to Scott too.

As a matter of fact I do support the troops. I DO think that mainstream media does nothing but preach gloom and doom. Do not tell me who I support and who I don't. And since you don't know me you don't know what I have done to show support to the troops. But, since the best you can do is throw insults around...I am not surprised.

Oh and yes you can support the troops without supporting the government that puts them there.

---

I am sorry that you take it personally, but that qoute has become the buzz word of the year. Since you know so many military people, just ask them for there opinion on that qoute. I did not insult you, I told you that "us" in the military/ ex-military hate that term and that only actions can prove otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottGem

I think he enjoyed thumbing his nose at the US and that was his undoing.

---

I believe that this is the closest thing to a good rebutal to my opinion. I agree 100% with this comment but I also believe that he was threat, maybe not directly but indirectly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

If you where there than, I am so sorry that you where and I must apologize for my statement. I cannot even fathom the horror. Even, being all of the places that I have been and military conflicts that I have been in I have never been a part of a situtation like that, only present afterwards.

---

Hello again:

Don't be sorry. I was proud to defend my country. The problem was that I wasn't defending my country at all. I was defending a failed policy. That didn't stop me from fighting like hell, and I didn't know it at the time anyway.

And, if it further eases your conscience, I did lie. My blood was spilled on the deck of the USS Robert K. Huntington, DD-781 - not in the dirt. It didn't hurt too badly, and I slept in my warm rack that night. Yeah, I got a purple heart. Big deal. Does that make you feel better?

excon

PS> By the way, last week my occupation was big band leader. I guess you wouldn't have gotten that one either.

Us in the military... hmmmm isn't it interesting that your screen name is Retired Navy.
Since you are not on the frontlines anymore how can you speak for those serving in Iraq? Have you been there in the last 9 months?

Have I... no. But then I don't pretend to speak for those who have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello Retired Dude:

If a joke has to be explained, it looses it's punch. I guess I should have considered that some people aren't smart enough to get it. Ok, my bad.

excon

---

As ScottGem pointed out to me https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/feedbac...e-24951-4.html

Negative comments should be given under the following circumstances:
1) From another member when an answer is FACTUALLY wrong
2) From the asker if the advice turned out to be wrong

Negative comments should NOT be given when:
1) there is a difference of opinion not of fact
2) when a response has been added to the thread disagreeing with the opinion

Think before insulting an individual.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuscany

Us in the military....hmmmm isn't it interesting that your screen name is Retired Navy.
Since you are not on the frontlines anymore how can you speak for those serving in Iraq? Have you been there in the last 9 months?

Have I...no. But then I don't pretend to speak for those who have.

---

In the last 9 months no, I returned from the Middle East in November 2005. My sister, however is there today. A co-working that is an Actived Duty Marine just got back and is trying to change his assignment to go back. I did not mention that I still work heaviliy with the military. Another friend that was a GS there just got back a month ago. So, just because I am retired from the military does not mean that I am still not apart of the military.

So, I do believe that I am not pretending. I my not be there, but I am in a position that I have continuous interactions with those that have been and even that are there right now.

Hello Navy:

I can argue as ridiculously as you can. I didn't give a negative comment. Those comments are when you push the rate this answer button. I didn't rate anything about you. I simply gave my opinion regarding your intellect. I'm entitled to my opinion aren't I?

excon

Oh so another words you are like me. You have family, friends, co-workers that are there. And like me you have continuous interaction with those that are there... ok... just checking.

excon,

Sorry you did, when you select Rate this Comment. I did make a mistake and did not send the entire Rule for making a comment.

Positive comments should be given under the following circumstances:
1) From the asker as a thank you
2) From other members to ratify the factual correctness of an answer
3) From other members to agree with the opinions expressed

With this, did you thank me for the comment, no. Did you ratify the factual correctness of an answer, no. Did you agree with the opinions expressed, no

So, who is the brilliant intellect in this situtation. Oh, I am sorry the known felon or ex-con.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuscany

Oh so another words you are like me. You have family, friends, co-workers that are there. And like me you have continous interaction with those that are there...ok...just checking.

---

Except, unlike you. I deal with it and work in the environment.

Another, note: Italy is a beautiful country. I am looking forward to visiting there again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

Think before insulting an individual.

---

Hypocrite much? Your very first comment on my post (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/politi...tml#post408385) was to demean me and a whole country instead of commenting about the content of the message.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

Just for starters:

1. That he was chosen by God to be president.
   
2. That his obligation to "protect the American people" is more important than his oath to "protect and defend the Constitution".
   
3. That he is not obligated to obey laws he doesn't agree with.
   
4. That scientific results that don't support his policy preferences and political goals should be disregarded and supressed.
   
5. That he alone has the authority to declare any person to be an "unlawful enemy combatant" and to deprive that person of all legal avenues to challenge this designation or his indefinite imprisonment without charge.

---

1) For those that are religious, many believe Fate and Destiny are the outcome of God's work. It is a known fact the Bush is a devote Christian, OK good for him.
2) Where has he violated the Constitution. Even if he did, our Government works on checks and balances so the violation would not go far before proceedings began.
3) Scientific result to what.
4) Speaking of Constitutional Law, yes he does under the Constitution as Commander and Chief of the Military. Also read Title 10 and Title 50 that establish the law for the military.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Hypocrite much? Your very first comment on my post (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/politi...tml#post408385) was to demean me and a whole country instead of commenting about the content of the message.

---

Not really, your comment "President Bush thinks he has a direct line to God" to me is a direct insult of my country. Maybe I should have pointed out that the Royal family has also believed the same.

Remember, I am a retired serviceman that has spent 20 years defending this country and willing to die for it. So, like many of us, you insult my country you insult me. I was just attempting to return the favor. In retrospect, very poorly.

Also, I did not know of the rule until ScottGem pointed them out. If you read post #44, you will find out that I owned up to my mistake. I have been a member for three day, excon since 2005. So, please explain how I am a hyprocrite.

It seems like this thread has degenerated into a p***ing match between our illustrious members. Can't we follow the lead of Rodney King and "all just get along". I've almost forgotten the original topic of discussion. Remember, we should all behave like ladies and gentlemen.

Hello again, Navy:

You don't have your facts straight. Fortunately, I do.

Evidently, my presence here has offended your sensibilities. To show your disdain for me, you dug up an old thread of mine from last May in order to insult me. We had never spoken a word before that. This is what you said:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

It is amazing that the only ones that attempt to that the steps the governemt have taken are legal are the poeple that have proven they cannot obide by the laws in the first place and/or those that have something to hide.

---

You think, because I'm a felon, that you can insult me. I didn't see that in the rules. Now, you have the audacity to accuse me?? Did you think I wouldn't notice? You have no honor Sir, and no credibility. On a website like this, that's all you have.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

Maybe I should have pointed out that the Royal family has also believed the same.

---

The Royal Family has nothing to do with canadian government.

That jab at excon tells me how you operate. Buh-bye.

Agreed. What is funny is that it is a p***ing contest for against those that will and have fought for their country and those that only talk about it. It is amazing the way people complain about our government when we are one of the few countries that we can do something about it. It is call voting and working with your representatives. The other alternative is to move to another is it is so unbearable here. We have illegals breaking the law to get here and those that are here just complain about our laws. Talk about a neverending story.

I am not the criminal, please tell me what you have done for this country beside break our laws.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

If you where there than, I am so sorry that you where and I must apologize for my statement. I cannot even fathom the horror. Even, being all of the places that I have been and military conflicts that I have been in I have never been a part of a situtation like that, only present afterwards.

---

There is no IF about it. I was there, I experienced it, I live with that experience. I have related that experience at various times where I felt it appropriate. This isn't the first time I have mentioned it here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

You are correct that you have know way to prove anything, the same as I do not when it comes to personal experiences or knowledge. Afterall, my words are just a bunch of trons transmitted around the world, like you. Opinions are just that opinions.

---

That's not quite what I said. I said I have no way of proving it to you. But proof does exist. I have recorded my story with StoryCorps, a copy of which is in the Library of Congress and will be part of the Ground Zero museum. I have witnesses who were with me that day. I have floor plans of my company's offices that show my name and where my office was. I have business cards that give my address as 2 WTC. Yes the proof does exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

The Royal Family has nothing to do with canadian government.

That jab at excon tells me how you operate. Buh-bye.

---

Please educate me. According to Government of Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia the Canadian Government consist of the Executive Branch with the Queen, Senate and House of Commons. Thus the Royal Family is apart of your Government which has been known to believe they where appointed by God.

I do believe that I owned up to my mistake about commenting you. If you cannot take that, not sweat off my back. Like I said, you are just rons coming from Canada.


As far as excon, his bio should tell the whole story. Respect is earned and not given. His past indicates how much he respect our society by breaking our laws. By reading the bio, more than once.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottGem

There is no IF about it. I was there, I experienced it, I live with that experience. I have related that experience at various times where I felt it appropriate. This isn't the first time I have mentioned it here.



That's not quite what I said. I said I have no way of proving it to you. But proof does exist. I have recorded my story with StoryCorps, a copy of which is in the Library of Congress and will be part of the Ground Zero museum. I have witnesses who were with me that day. I have floor plans of my company's offices that show my name and where my office was. I have business cards that give my address as 2 WTC. Yes the proof does exist.

---

Honestly, anyone that is willing to explain to this detail without trying to attack me personally then the truth is there. I must apologize for my comment. I hope you understand that in these type of environments, some have a tendency to "exagerate".

I have never meet anyone at Ground Zero, only people at the Pentagon and have known a few that died there. It is my honor to meet you.

I still do not agree with you opinion, but I respect it. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

I have never meet anyone at Ground Zero, only people at the Pentagon and have known a few that died there. It is my honor to meet you.

I still do not agree with you opinion, but I respect it. :)

---

Frankly, while I think it is an honor to meet me, not for that reason. I did nothing to distinguish myself by being a part of the tragedy, other than having survived it. Too many people contributed heroically, and many of them tragically, to the aftermath of the attack, for me to take any honor from my simply having been there.

I do not ask that you agree with me, but I thank you for respecting my right to my opinions.

That is an Honor within itself. Surviving such a tragedy and then pulling yourself back into the game of life take courage and commitment. The Navy's Core Values is Honor, Courage and Commitment with is not just to the military but to onesself, their community and their friends and family. We have to many in our society that do not have those values. So when I find people with those values, I find it an honor to meet them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

The Royal Family has nothing to do with canadian government.

That jab at excon tells me how you operate. Buh-bye.

---

I am sorry, I should have searched a little further. Please read Style of the Canadian Sovereign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

As far as excon, his bio should tell the whole story. Respect is earned and not given. His past indicates how much he respect our society by breaking our laws. By reading the bio, more than once.

---

RN, I am not going to comment about my opinion of GWB because it appears that this is an argument with no happy conclusion. I also do not want to hijack this thread by getting onto other topics. However, I must interject regarding excon. You stated you have only been here 3 days. Yes, I agree respect is earned. Due to excon's input on this web site he has earned the respect of all of us that have been here for a while. He gives his advice freely to people. He has helped many, many people who have gotten into trouble and are looking for someone to help them understand the laws. His advice is much more than very good advice. He also helps out in other forums as well. All of this is done, free of charge. We don't know what excon did in breaking the law, but his name tells us that he has served his time. It is not appropriate to condemn someone, all over again, when they have paid for their crimes. Please, do not personally attack him for this. It is cruel and has no bearing on this discussion. You may not agree with his politics, and that is your right. You have a right to your opinion. Politics and religion are rather subjective topics the majority of the time. But, please, do not get personal and continue to condemn him as you have been doing.

And I guess all of the military that serve the U.S. has not earned there respect in society in this forum. Those that fight for you rights to post comments on this site should be freed from insults also. The original post that I stated was "Well, if you are not a terrorist or a criminal then what are you concerned about. Even if you where a criminal (US Citizen) then the wiretapping would not affect you becuase it only focused on terrorism and if something outside of that was discovered it would be dropped in our court system. "Which he took personal instead of statement concerning wiretapping. We all make choices in our lives that we must deal with and many times they come back and hunt us.

Retired Navy -

I think you need to take a huge deep breath. I am glad to see that you have communicated respect to Scott, as I was more than upset at that exchange.

I completely realize you pretty much have entered "civilian" life and it is hugely different then when you were in uniform and you may not be used to folks voicing a difference of opinion than yours. Just some unsolicited advice... you are going to have to be more open to people voicing their beliefs and learning to have a conversation rather than find ways to beat them down.

Go and read some of my post as far as our military. They are my heart. I love and adore them and proudly say support them. President Bush is my President and I respect his position and I believe all should respect the position of President. He is my Commander in Chief. You will never find me voicing any negative comment about any of our Presidents. I respect the position, but my main concern is our troops.

Oh, I have supported the Navy as a civilian for 25 years and still going strong.

Not sure why I have this need to refer to you as "Sir". I guess I fear, I do not want to be disrespectful. However, please be mindful, using a name such as Retired Navy, like it or not, the words you post, not only reflect on you, but on our fine Navy as well.

I have this awful sense that you do not fully feel the support that is here for our troops in the civilian world. Trust me, it is more than there. Give yourself some time to acclumate yourself to the civlian world. I do understand what a difficult transition it is.

This is an incredible site with amazing and talented people. You truly will enjoy it. Relax a little. Believe you me, I fully understand your upset. When I hear negative about our President, my back gets up as well. Its instictive. To me I have a hard time making the disconnect from a degrogatroy statement about our Presdent, from a degrogtory statement about our Country and brave military.

Starting to feel like I am rambling. Hope what I am sharing is helpful.

By the way, I missed what you wrote about Excon. He's another fine individual. Hope you are able to see that for yourself and respect it as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello gaze:

So, that excuses Georgie? No, it doesn't. Haven't you right wingers heard the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right"? Nope, no you haven't.

excon

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

DUM, DUM, DUM - another one bites the dust.

excon

---

Who has a tendency to insult, I found many more. I can say this for excon, he does give great advice on dealing with the Police.

Oh LOL RN - sometimes that is just is wondeful gift of humor. He is amazing. Honest. (and good hearted).

I am sorry I had to step away for a moment.

You are absolutely correct that those that fight for our rights should not be attacked for serving our country. I have been looking but I can't seem to find the posts in which someone attacked you for that. You will have to forgive me, but I am a bit tired and maybe I am missing something here. But, I would most definitely defend you too for being attacked in that manner.

I can't find the post you are quoting after my post. This is what I am finding in which the attacks actually first started. Please correct me if I am wrong and have missed the first personal insult thrown by Excon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

Well, if you are not a terrorist or a criminal then what are you concerned about. Even if you where a criminal (US Citizen) then the wiretapping would not affect you becuase it only focused on terrorism and if something outside of that was discovered it would be dropped in our court system. Also, how do you think they wiretape. It is a computer that only keys on specific words to known areas of interest. Only when it meets a specific criteria does a human listen. So call the adult 800 number will be ignored.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello Retired:

The above presumes you believe him. I don't - not for a minute. I think they're gonna listen to anyone they damn well please.

You believe him, huh? You were in Iraq? So, how many WMD's did you find?

excon

PS> Not that it matters, but for your information I spilled a few quarts of my blood in the Vietnamese dirt.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

If you where in Vietnam, I would say I am glad you served your country. Your experenses says it all of the man you truely are. And CEO of a 500 company, please save me. If you bio is true, no company would ever allow you to get into management. Something about following rules, governance, respect, honest, and loyalty.

Well it is good to see that Conspiracism is live and well. Everyone is out to get you, the Federal Governement, the State Government, and the Local Government.

---

This is where it appears that the personal attacks began. Then, it started really breaking down between the two of you, and you both became personal. I realize that you haven't been here long enough to realize that most people don't fill our their personal information completely and honestly. Some of us make jokes. Most people prefer to stay completely anonymous.

RN, I am sure that excon is haunted by his past mistakes. All I am saying is, there really isn't any reason to "rub salt in the wound." Argue about your position. You have as much right to your opinion as anyone else here. I agree that excon has attacked you personally during this thread. But, it appears that you hurled the first stone. So, it is best if we stay on track and focus on the initial post, and avoid insulting one another any further.

The beginning is the wiretap opinion, you are correct. However, the first comment on wiretaping is just that not against excon. If you are not currently involved in criminal activitythe you will not be harmed by any alleged eaves dropping. I have found that those how have something to hide raise their voices the loadest against possible capture. So, if excon is not involved in criminal activities now, the comment was not directed at him but at current terrorist and CURRENT criminals.

It is time to drop this. It is appearant that excon has his presence established. I will avoid excon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RetiredNavy

The beginning is the wiretap opinion, you are correct. However, the first comment on wiretaping is just that not against excon. If you are not currently involved in criminal activitythe you will not be harmed by any alleged eaves dropping.

---

I have to go back to this, because you seem to be missing the point. First, let me point out the taps are not "alleged" the govt has admitted them. Second, I agree with and have used the same argument when supporting legal checks on our privacies and freedoms.

But you go down a very slippery slope when you apply that argument towards ILLEGAL surveillance. The issue, to me, is not that the eavesdropping went on but that it was done with a disregard for the Constitution. The fact is there is a mechanism already in place for the govt to quickly, privately and legally obtain such taps. The Bush administration ignored that mechanism and eavesdropped on citizens in violation of the law! That people will not be going to jail for it is another crime.