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Originally Posted by excon

I maintain that IF the door was open to legal immigration (like all you people keep saying it is), then there would be NO NEON sign. The jobs WOULD be filled by LEGALS.

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The door is available. Your forth paragraph speaks directly to that availability.

Would you have a problem with turning the NEON lights onto welfare recipeints? Screen them instead continuing to allow the trickling in of illeagals. Put them into a WORK-FARE program instead generations on the dole... fill that urgent need for workers?

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Clearly, anybody who DID wait all those years and PAID all that money isn't going to be happy about people who didn't. I'M not happy about people who didn't! But, I certainly understand why they come. And, I certainly know who to blame.

Excon

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I know I'd be POed! But I believe we've many of us, somewhere along the way, have been the victim of policy change, right before our eyes. Kickin' and screamin' won't change the day.

And, you, that's too bad. I hate playing by the rules and seeing people take advantage of the system - DAILY. But I'm the fool. I'll get it by myself or I just won't have it.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRich

I hate playing by the rules and seeing people take advantage of the system - DAILY. But I'm the fool. I'll get it by myself or I just won't have it.

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Hello again, Captain:

I don't disagree.

But, when the gubment opens the cash window to farmers, for example, I don't get pissed off at the farmers who line up. Hell, if I was a farmer, I'd line up too. But, I can't and you can't either.

So, I get pissed off at the gubment. It's NOT the farmers who are the bad guys, and it's not the illegal's either.

excon

PS> I have no problem putting welfare recipients to work. What? You think I'm one of THEM like jillian does?

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Some people think we should make Mexico a state.

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Maybe a territory rather than an outright state. Pueto Rico and Guam are territories. If we purveyed the same duties and rights to "them" that PR and Guam have, all forms of economy and goodness could flow freely from North Dakota to Chiapas. Oh, my! We could hire "them" to clean it up along the way.

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My opinion is, we should work on policies which allow for legal immigration in reasonable time frames and for reasonable prices so the people who want to come here can get here and receive fair wages, pay taxes, be contributing members of our society, even vote someday. The nagging second question is what to do with the illegals who are here presently, which is where tensions usually arise. The blame lies with the gubment, you're certainly right about that. And not just the US gubment, but the Mexican gubment, the Guatemalan gubment, the Venezuelan gubment...

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We already have enoough immigration policies and laws that aren't being abided by. I really don't see how if we passed dozens more it would make a difference. If one wishes to come here illegally, what compells one to begin behaving after?
If "they" had to be absorbed into the system and play above board, perhaps being here wouldn't look so rosy.
Like so many others, I'm growing bored wondering if there is a way to fix this issue...

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Originally Posted by excon

opens the cash window to farmers

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Uh-huh. Like paying farmers to not grow wheat or peas this year. That's just plain dumb. I don't support that either.

That's another thread from immig.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, spring girl:

I dunno. That's an awfully specific number. Because it's so specific, I tend to doubt its authenticity. Citizens are hard enough to get an accurate count on. I can't imagine we would know exactly how many illegal's are here.

Since one of the numbers you use is suspect, the other is similarly questionable. Unless, of course, you can site a reliable source.

excon

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Illegal Immigration Counters - Home Page


The Mexico/USA Border; The Gathering Storm
"Specifically in regard to drugs, according to counter-drug officials, an estimated 75% of all cocaine and 40% of all heroin that reaches the streets of America was smuggled through Mexico. DEA agents say that Mexican drug lords have become as powerful or more powerful than those leading the Colombian cartels. "



In my neck of the woods [ SE ] the meth coming from Mexico is reputedly stronger and cheaper - a better value - so much so that the homegrown labs are being outcompeted.


I agree that the amount of "illegals" would be less if we had more legal immigration, but come on, why should taxpaying citizens have to foot the bill and the consequences of crime that results from illegal immigration?



Grace and Peace

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BABRAM agrees: From experience, not opinionated guessing, I can tell you that the U.S. legal immigration system is so backed up that "time frames" would make it worse. Alien petition for the married takes over one year now. Petitions for siblings over 18 forget it

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Add more man power to the processing of legal requests, and waits get shortened. That's what I meant by time frames.

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Originally Posted by excon

What? You think I'm one of THEM like jillian does?

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You mean a pot-smoking liberal with no health insurance? :D

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Originally Posted by CaptainRich

Maybe a territory rather than an outright state. Pueto Rico and Guam are territories. If we purveyed the same duties and rights to "them" that PR and Guam have, all forms of economy and goodness could flow freely from North Dakota to Chiapas. Oh, my! We could hire "them" to clean it up along the way.

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I'm not under the impression Mexico WANTS to become a state or territory. Not to mention there are oodles of immigrants from other countries south of the border, surely we shouldn't make them all territories.

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We already have enoough immigration policies and laws that aren't being abided by. I really don't see how if we passed dozens more it would make a difference. If one wishes to come here illegally, what compells one to begin behaving after?
If "they" had to be absorbed into the system and play above board, perhaps being here wouldn't look so rosy.
Like so many others, I'm growing bored wondering if there is a way to fix this issue...

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You're right, there are a bunch of immigration policies not being abided by, but that doesn't mean we can ignore it and hope it fixes itself. I think redesigning the system and finding people willing to enforce the policies is the trick. Perhaps that's looking at things like an optimist, but hey, anything is possible. I think taking away some of the "benefits" of being here illegally would serve as a deterrent to some, and encourage legal immigration. I've mentioned this before, but my county is currently pursuing policies which will make public services prohibited to illegal immigrants. They proposed forbidding schools and EMS, but that's not allowed by the constitution, so instead they are working on other public services like the health clinic. Not sure how far it's going to get and it's being met with a lot of opposition (and a lot of support), but if it passes, it's likely to drive people out of the community. The Latino community is currently on a business strike, actually.

And I just want to say it makes me giggle to see other people use "gubment"! :) I can't take credit though, my high school Gubment teacher invented it.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Add more man power to the processing of legal requests, and waits get shortened. That's what I meant by time frames.

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Jill-

It's the ridiculous jumping through hoops of paperwork that later passes onto several desks that will burn you out waiting. If the forms were shortened and the govt staff worried less about the next coffee break, we might just see some productivity. But instead they did expand it with more employees and added more paperwork. It's called, "Homeland Security." Now the one thing they will do is rush to answer any fee questions or tax concerns.



Bobby

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Add more man power to the processing of legal requests, and waits get shortened. That's what I meant by time frames.

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Streamlining our red tape to accommodate more? I'd still rather do more about stemming the flow first. And then perhaps addressing other aspects of the issue.

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You mean a pot-smoking liberal with no health insurance?

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I'd endorse decriminalization of pot, and just call him a liberal.

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I'm not under the impression Mexico WANTS to become a state or territory. Not to mention there are oodles of immigrants from other countries south of the border, surely we shouldn't make them all territories.

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I doubt they WANT to become anything they're not already. We can site stats about the number of ill-imm's here... but how many of them WANT to stay there. And what is their own gub doing to insure it's citizens remain?

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You're right, there are a bunch of immigration policies not being abided by, but that doesn't mean we can ignore it and hope it fixes itself. I think redesigning the system and finding people willing to enforce the policies is the trick. Perhaps that's looking at things like an optimist, but hey, anything is possible. I think taking away some of the "benefits" of being here illegally would serve as a deterrent to some, and encourage legal immigration. I've mentioned this before, but my county is currently pursuing policies which will make public services prohibited to illegal immigrants. They proposed forbidding schools and EMS, but that's not allowed by the constitution, so instead they are working on other public services like the health clinic. Not sure how far it's going to get and it's being met with a lot of opposition (and a lot of support), but if it passes, it's likely to drive people out of the community. The Latino community is currently on a business strike, actually.

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We're not a nation that would deny emergency services to anyone in need. As far as other services the ill-imm's are relying upon, those services weren't put in place and supported for their use to begin with. Again, it comes down to screening before they arrive at the clinic doors.

Finding the funding to find the people to work the dangerous task of guarding our borders is more of a problem. We have Customs, INS, US Coast Guard, state and local police, ICE, vigilantes, cameras and sensors... Everyone and everything is working 24/7. And yet there still isn't enough funding, and apparently insufficient public support. That has to change first.

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

Jill-

It's the ridiculous jumping through hoops of paperwork that later passes onto several desks that will burn you out waiting. If the forms were shortened and the govt staff worried less about the next coffee break, we might just see some productivity. But instead they did expand it with more employees and added more paperwork. It's called, "Homeland Security." Now the one thing they do is rush to answer any fee questions or tax concerns.



Bobby

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Remember years ago Ross Perot suggested the US gub be run like a business rather than not? Make each department accountable for their own productivity, justify their own budget by proving their worth. It's much easier to drag your feet and say, "No," rather than be responsible for finding a way to say, "Yes."
With the volumes of policy and regulations, I'd be willing to bet you couldn't stick a legislator behind a desk at DMV or the patent office and have them remain productive with their own laws, one seeming to contradict the next!
Most people scoffed at Perot's suggestion. I actually thought that was a refreshing view!

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Originally Posted by CaptainRich

Remember years ago Ross Perot suggested the US gub be run like a business rather than not? Make each department accountable for their own productivity, justify their own budget by proving their worth. It's much easier to drag your feet and say, "No," rather than be responsible for finding a way to say, "Yes."
With the volumes of policy and regulations, I'd be willing to bet you couldn't stick a legislator behind a desk at DMV or the patent office and have them remain productive with their own laws, one seeming to contradict the next!
Most people scoffed at Perot's suggestion. I actually thought that was a refreshing view!

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Yes. I was also disappointed when Perot backed out of the election. Perot had the financial resources, as an Independent, to legitimately challenge for the office. I'll take it one step further than Perot: the US govt is a business. In fact so much so that they also want in be in everybody else's business and are being paid to do a job.




Bobby

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Originally Posted by CaptainRich

Streamlining our red tape to accommodate more? I'd still rather do more about stemming the flow first. And then perhaps addressing other aspects of the issue.

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Of course flow needs to be addressed, but with that comes redesign and streamlining of processes. I think (optimism again) if wait times and paperwork were streamlined and affordable less immigrants would sneak acrosss the border because coming here legally gets them more opportunities (and more services if those items are reformed as well). I don't see how it's possible to implement change in one area without change in other areas; that's counterproductive. Say we build a giant fence with a moat and put crocodiles in the moat to keep the illegals out, but we don't do anything to address the illegals here, or address the process for application for legal entry. You're just going to end up with holes in your fence and dead crocodiles. It's a HUGE issue, with a lot of problems that need to be addressed in line with one another in order to actually work. Or at least kind of work. It IS the gubment, after all.

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I'd endorse decriminalization of pot, and just call him a liberal.

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Decriminalization of pot is a whole new thread! :)

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I doubt they WANT to become anything they're not already. We can site stats about the number of ill-imm's here... but how many of them WANT to stay there. And what is their own gub doing to insure it's citizens remain?

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I'm sure most of the illegals want to stay here. Even the crappy conditions here are better than the crappy conditions there. We have jobs, clean drinking water, sewer systems, etc. I see the reason to want to come here, but making Mexico (or any other country) a state or territory causes that country to lose a bit of it's nationalism. Not only that, but our gumbent isn't equipped to take on the conditions in Mexico. Mexico has an HDI of .821, they are ranked 53rd out of 177 countries. They suffer from huge income inequalities and have an HPI-1 value of 7.2. Why would the US gubment want to take on a nation with such economic problems? The Mexican gubment needs to reform itself instead of relying on the US to take on and fix its problems. So really, they aren't doing anything to ensure citizens remain. I've even heard rumors about the Mexican gubment passing out flyers about illegal immigration to the US as a method of promoting the behavior.

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We're not a nation that would deny emergency services to anyone in need. As far as other services the ill-imm's are relying upon, those services weren't put in place and supported for their use to begin with. Again, it comes down to screening before they arrive at the clinic doors.

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No, we can't deny emergency services to people in need. I mean, your house is on fire, what's the fire dept going to do, ask you to prove your legal status before putting it out? It's silly, and that's why those measures were dismissed. I'll be interested to see what they DO get passed...

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Finding the funding to find the people to work the dangerous task of guarding our borders is more of a problem. We have Customs, INS, US Coast Guard, state and local police, ICE, vigilantes, cameras and sensors... Everyone and everything is working 24/7. And yet there still isn't enough funding, and apparently insufficient public support. That has to change first.

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Funding is a problem. Gubment agencies and contractors have a way of just running through money like it's water and never getting anything accomplished. You're right, public support has to change, funds need to be properly appropriated, and measures which actually WORK need to be in place before we will see an impact made.

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

Yes. I was also disappointed when Perot backed out of the election. Perot had the financial resources, as an Independent, to legitimately challenge for the office. I'll take it one step further than Perot: the US govt is a business. In fact so much so that they also want in be in everybody else's business and are being paid to do a job.




Bobby

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That's true, Bobby

But they can't get their own checks to clear their own bank! Remember that fiasco?

If you or I did that, the results would be different!

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Originally Posted by CaptainRich

That's true, Bobby

But they can't get their own checks to clear their own bank!! Remeber that fiasco?

If you or I did that, the results would be different!

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My wife was says I'm getting a case of OA (old age). That's one of many fiasco's... just vaguely. Remind me. I do know recently there was news that the United Nations was paying in counterfeit money.


Bobby

The banking fiasco? That's old (early '90's?) but I remember "Rubber-gate"

The UN gives a whole new meaning to: "THE BUCK STOPS HERE"

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Of course flow needs to be addressed, but with that comes redesign and streamlining of processes. I think (optimism again) if wait times and paperwork were streamlined and affordable less immigrants would sneak acrosss the border because coming here legally gets them more opportunities (and more services if those items are reformed as well). I don't see how it's possible to implement change in one area without change in other areas; that's counterproductive. Say we build a giant fence with a moat and put crocodiles in the moat to keep the illegals out, but we don't do anything to address the illegals here, or address the process for application for legal entry. You're just going to end up with holes in your fence and dead crocodiles. It's a HUGE issue, with a lot of problems that need to be addressed in line with one another in order to actually work. Or at least kinda work. It IS the gubment, afterall.



Decriminalization of pot is a whole new thread! :)



I'm sure most of the illegals want to stay here. Even the crappy conditions here are better than the crappy conditions there. We have jobs, clean drinking water, sewer systems, etc. I see the reason to want to come here, but making Mexico (or any other country) a state or territory causes that country to lose a bit of it's nationalism. Not only that, but our gumbent isn't equipped to take on the conditions in Mexico. Mexico has an HDI of .821, they are ranked 53rd out of 177 countries. They suffer from huge income inequalities and have an HPI-1 value of 7.2. Why would the US gubment want to take on a nation with such economic problems? The Mexican gubment needs to reform itself instead of relying on the US to take on and fix its problems. So really, they aren't doing anything to ensure citizens remain. I've even heard rumors about the Mexican gubment passing out flyers about illegal immigration to the US as a method of promoting the behavior.



No, we can't deny emergency services to people in need. I mean, your house is on fire, what's the fire dept going to do, ask you to prove your legal status before putting it out? It's silly, and that's why those measures were dismissed. I'll be interested to see what they DO get passed...



Funding is a problem. Gubment agencies and contractors have a way of just running through money like it's water and never getting anything accomplished. You're right, public support has to change, funds need to be properly appropriated, and measures which actually WORK need to be in place before we will see an impact made.

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Any thought to how many Ill-Imm's are fleeing justice? Just because they haven't been busted here, doesn't mean they're not wanted there. So even if the process was streamlined, doesn't dictate their compliance. I'm not saying they're all wanted at home, or even desired there. But that's a statistic we'll probably never honestly know.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRich

The banking fiasco? That's old (early '90's?) but I remember "Rubber-gate"

The UN gives a whole new meaning to: "THE BUCK STOPS HERE"

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Yes. From this year, reported March 16, 2007, the incident from 10 years ago reared it's ugly head once again.

"It has been well known for years, and was spelled out last fall by the U.S. Treasury, that North Korea’s regime has been sponsoring the counterfeiting of U.S. banknotes and laundering into world markets these so-called Supernotes, which first surfaced in the Philippines in 1989. What has not made it into the news, however, is that some of these banknotes appear to have ended up in the possession of the UNDP office in Pyongyang—which, until it got hit with scandal this past January for funneling genuine cash to Kim, apparently did nothing to report counterfeit bills allegedly coming at them.

The UNDP spokesman’s office has confirmed to me some details of the suspect cash, which, according to the UNDP, is now in the process of being removed from the agency’s Pyongyang premises and turned over to U.S. authorities. This was alluded to in a press briefing Tuesday at the U.N.’s New York headquarters by UNDP spokesman David Morrison, who, as part of a longer statement, touched in vague terms on “an incident dating back more than 10 years” in which “a consultant who worked for UNDP” had “some difficulty” with U.S. banknotes."

__________________________________________________ ____________________




Bobby

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Originally Posted by CaptainRich

Any thought to how many Ill-Imm's are fleeing justice? Just because they haven't been busted here, doesn't mean they're not wanted there. So even if the process was streamlined, doesn't dictate their compliance. I'm not saying they're all wanted at home, or even desired there. But that's a statistic we'll probably never honestly know.

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I don't know, would be interesting to know, though. Streamlining the process wouldn't eliminate illegal immigration - that's what the fence and the crocodiles are for. :) I'm making the assumption the majority of illegals aren't felons in Mexico (or wherever they are from).