My posting #30 agrees with Crow that it should be a legal issue as marriage is contractual .
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My posting #30 agrees with Crow that it should be a legal issue as marriage is contractual .
So... you're saying that lying to your spouse is cheating (transitive)? Or just having sexual relations with someone not your spouse or regular sex partner (intransitive)?
So... having a one night stand would then become illegal? How about not telling your spouse that you were out with that girlfriend that he hates because he'd just give you a hard time about it?
How do you define "sexual relationship"? The flirting that I do with my girlfriends, where we joke about tying up our husbands and making them watch while we wrestle in jello--woudl that be a sexual relationship? I have a relationship with those girls, and that image is obviously sexual--did I just cheat on my husband?
I've said this in other threads, and I'll say it again: CHEATING IS DEFINED BY THE COUPLE. What is okay with one couple is not always okay with another couple. To make laws defining cheating would be as stupid as making laws defining how to make coffee. Everyone likes it a little different, you know.
Making cheating illegal, as Jillian has said, is just stupid. What do you think that's going to do--deter people? It's not like people go into relationships thinking "oh, I'm going to cheat". People make mistakes, and things happen. Should people be sent to jail for not making dinner on their night to cook, too? Or spending more time with the guys than with their wife? Or forgetting to stop at the store for diapers and formula? Those are inconsiderate to the state of marriage too!
Go judge someone else. The apt punishment for a cheater is that their spouse leaves them. If that person declines to "punish" the person, then why should anyone else?
As I also said in my posting the premise was absurd. Still marriage is a contractual issue and that makes it a legal one. That is why judges are so often involved in the termination. Let couples define cheating ;no problem there .
I am not going to try and convince you that not making it illegal because it would not stop every instance is an illogical argument; just like all laws have been broken that one would too. AS Tom has pointed out, marriage is a legal and binding contract. But then I suppose you are pro -same-sex marriage too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
That person doesn't decline to punish the person, he/she sends the spouse to the court. Instead of using violence or perfrom irrational activities to punish the cheaters.Quote:
that person declines to "punish" the person, then why should anyone else?
U can't avoid divorce, as I mentioned finance difficulties, lack of communications and child education conflicts are also the major issues leading to divorce.
The OP is about " Banning divorce" not "banning not love each other" so sometimes when the love is gone then it's gone, it is still our responsibility to hold as a family, even if they are not as in love as they used to.
Yes, it's illegal, and the spouse who caught them can sue them!Quote:
Having a one night stand would then become illegal
Isn't there enough suing in our country already? I mean hell, you can sue over spilling hot coffee on yourself.
I think that to tell people that it is illegal to divorce or to cheat, is taking away their basic human rights. The only reason this is even an issue is because of religious beliefs, and if you ask me we already have enough religion intermixed into government.
Holding onto a family where the love is gone is more detrimental than the divorce. Ask any child of divorce that was of an understanding age when it happened... we need to face the fact that sometimes, people change, and we drift apart, and there is nothing we necessarily did to cause that. Sometimes people put on a face and are more angry 10 years down the road and turn to abuse... no one should be forced to stay in a situation where they are not happy.
I meant defining a one night stand between two single people, because that would be having sex with someone other than a long standing sexual partner.
Dark--I *am* pro-same-sex marriages, yes. There's so much hate in this world as it is--why stop love from being acknowledged, regardless of who the two people in love are?
Seriously... if you make cheating illegal, and ONE person in the couple thinks that going to a strip club (or, OMG... on the INTERNET) and looking at naked people is cheating, and the other person doesn't think it's cheating unless intercourse is involved--how would you prove it? How would you prosecute it and back it up? How would you possibly define it to fit every circumstance?
If you made cheating illegal (which is different than making divorce illegal), there would be no way to consistently enforce it.
If you made divorce illegal except in certain circumstances (like abuse, cheating, monetary mismanagement, etc), then those people desperate for a divorce will just start accusing their partner of those "crimes", and that will tie up the courts even more than they already are!
Instead... why doesn't everyone just teach their kids morals? Why not take responsibility for your own actions? Why would stopping divorce be such a great idea to begin with? Do you really want to condemn two (or more, if there are kids) people to unhappiness for the rest of their lives? Don't you think that if they can't divorce, they'll just go live separate lives anyway?
Well, each countres are really different,that's not all about religion, the countries I have lived in don't really have a religion issue along with moral. I am just introducing what other countries do to reduce divorce rate since I have spent my life in many other countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by alkalineangel
We learn from each other, no one is always right, learn to listen, and please don't feel offended when new ideas being brought up.
I am under a firm belief that making laws to prohibit things is not the answer... look at drugs, theft, murder, etc.. I agree with synn, if we raise our children correctly, they will go on to choose what is morally right.
If you ask me, and this may sound strange given my continued resitance against government ruling our rights, the best way to handle things, is to make, as someone else stated, it harder to get married and have children. I mean we make everyone in this country take a test before getting into a vehicle to drive, and it is far less important than marriage, or raising children. Synnen has pointed this out in threads before, and I agree with her. It should be a privelage to have children, and a privelage to marry. You must earn the ability to do so by proving you are capable and competent enough to do so... Each religion should handle the marriage one, so as not to cause conflict... It is pushing things, and I doubt it will ever happen, but I mean to ban things all together seems far more unreasonable to me.
Yes, DC, that's exactly what I am suggesting. You got me. I'm an anarchist. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
I hope so. It's a good ideal to study foreign methods of educating your children. I think it will assist you with a great benefit.Quote:
we raise our children correctly, they will go on to choose what is morally right.
It's only a suggestion. Please be open minded.
I try to stay open minded at all times, thanks for the suggestion!
Banning divorce does not a happy marriage make.
Besides, it might have the unfortunate side-effect of increasing homicides.
Or suicides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emland
Wow. This topic has heated up. I think you have to look at WHY? In a lot of our "issues". Why is this happening? Or why is that happening? Is there a common denominator? Banning divorce just opens a can of worms. Why is the divorce rate up? What can we do to fix what is apparently breaking?
The breakdown of the traditional family has been a hot topic for years; and I suppose one of the most written about topics there are. So much of it has been couched in religious/moral terms I just thought it about time family break-up was discussed in legal terms.Quote:
Originally Posted by NowWhat
But I guess a lot like illegal immigration, most people just want to consider the moral and not the legal aspect.
Oh, I'm with you on the legal side of the immigration issue. I don't want my neighbor to be a criminal whose first act on coming to the country was breaking the law.
The whole thing with the banning of divorce--haven't I been arguing the legal side of it?
The thing is... making divorce illegal isn't going to SOLVE anything. It's Prohibition all over again! I might be more with you if I could see how it would actually fix anything!
The reason marriages stayed together in years past is because the woman had no power and no options. If she got a good guy - that's great. How many other had to stay with abusers or cheats simply because they could not support themselves or their children.
The past may have seem like better times, but I bet there are a lot of women (and children) that suffered greatly.
It is difficult to get out of a certain frame of thinking, but consider this. Enforcing the law, “Till death do up part” would certainly deter a man from leaving his wife for another if he had to spend some time in jail. As far as a woman being committed to abuse, there are already laws against that. The focus should be on each person to enter marriage only after giving it the fullest of though and not something decided after a one night stand. Think about what groups have the highest rate of marriage failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emland
"Till death do us part" is a part of the vows, which you don't have to recite. Many people write their own vows; so would those people be excluded from your ban? If they said it, couldn't they lie and say they didn't (no video to prove it) to find a loophole? I still don't understand the logic of putting someone who had an affair behind bars; it makes no sense. Our jails and prisons are crowded enough, our courts are bogged down enough, why do we need to start involving something which can be solved personally? Beyond that, I'm with synnen, I still don't know what you think a ban on divorce or criminalizing adultery would fix. Do you honestly blame all of the so-called "moral decay" on divorce and cheating spouses? Seriously??Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
What! Your comments are so far in left field from anything I said I cannot even begin to understand how I might respond. What drugs are these that allow you such fantasy like imagination, because I would need them in order to even begin to answer your outrageous assumptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Did I write in pig latin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
You propose there should be a constitutional ban on marriage. You argue that saying "til death parts us" implies a legal contract which should not be able to be broken. I'm telling you "til death parts us" is not included in every marriage ceremony (you actually argue it's a law, which it isn't, but I'm going to be nice and not mention that. Whoops.). So I'm asking you, if two people getting married don't say "til death parts us" do you consider they have entered into the legal contract of marriage? If you don't say those words, are you exempt from the ban because you never really contracted? If you did say those words, but no one can PROVE you said those words, can't you lie and say you didn't in order to get a divorce?
I don't know how to dumb down crowded jails and prisons and clogged up courtrooms. I also don't know how to dumb down asking you what you think a constitutional ban would solve or fix. I also don't know how to dumb down asking you if you honestly think the "moral decay" in the world is caused by divorce.
I've dumbed it down as much as I can. If you still don't get it, well... I'm not one for name calling...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
NO to the proposed amendment.
How about a different legal tactic.
Ban NO FAULT divorce:
Proof of abuse, adultery, addiction, would be required.
I think this would cut down on the; I'm leaving you for a better looking person, or I'm leaving you because so and so makes more money, kind of divorces.
PREQUALIFY for marriage to address the main causes of divorces
Education for sexual, financial, child related, religious issues.
I think STRONGER marriages would help improve society.
Grace and Peace
inthebox, in a way I agree with you about the no fault divorces, but there are still some cases in which divorce is needed when abuse, etc is not present. Someone I know married a girl who made up stories about her parents being very ill; she gave us doctor names, medical conditions, made up a lawyer she was talking to... and when her one parent "died" she had the other parent attempt suicide and end up committed to a mental institution, where that parent later died of a bowel obstruction. She planned funerals; gave us location names, dates... then found a reason to cancel the service so no one would come. Her husband had no idea these stories were made up. Oh, and she was telling her family the same stuff (more or less) was happening to her husband's family! In the end, everyone was alive and well - she was just nuts and looking for attention (we guess). Anyway, she refused to get help (which I think anyone can agree she needed) refused to get a job for the duration of the marriage and burned through all the money her husband ever earned, putting him in tremendous debt. The husband divorced her. Now maybe other people would have stuck it out, but I think in a case like that, and no fault divorce was the best option. The real kicker? She seemd totally normal before they got married, held down a job and everything.
I think if divorce was HARDER and access to marriage counseling was more readily available we might see a reduction in divorce rates.
Also, I take issue with "prequalification" because who's decision is it if you get married or not? Everyone places different values on different things, so there's no formula for the "perfect marriage".
Why is it that people feel the need to place societies problem's on things that don't really cause the problem?
I see people blaming divorces, drugs, etc. In fact, if parents learned to say no to their kids more often and taught them the difference between right and wrong, things would be OK.
If our elected leaders set examples of how to properly behave, that would be a way to learn. I have see both US and Canadian scandals from our politicians and if they can be this corrupt, why do people think that it is divorces that are the problem?
And how can one “prove” abuse. I know of someone who was abused by her husband, but it was more mental abuse than physical abuse. So how could she have left him if she had to “prove” it?
As for marriages and divorces. Yes, some people rush into marriages far too quickly, but if we pose restrictions on that, who is to set those restrictions? That is just not right.
As for divorces, banning all or even some divorces is just wrong. What right does the government have to tell anyone that they MUST continue to live with a person who they HAVE to be married to? Relationships fall apart all the time. So perhaps if you have been dating your girlfriend for over a year, should you then NOT be allowed to break up with her?
Who is to say that you can only have a child with your wife? How about just a girlfriend?
Banning divorces will not solve any problems, it will just create more problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Wow seems , like a personality disorder or schizophrenia should be considred a "fault."
:)
I'll have to look it up, but aren't the top 3 reasons for divorce = money, sex, children?
I'm just suggesting education about these issues, before marriage - sort of like a preventative step.
After all, there's driver's ed and a driving test before legally being able to drive.
A good study may be to compare divorce rates between Roman Catholics that had Pre cana vs those couples that did not.
Grace and Peace
inthebox I recently looked up the top reasons for divorce and it seems like it changes depending on who does the reporting. Generally speaking though, it has to do with "incompatibility" which can be anything from how to discipline the kids, how to budget, or how often to have sex. So that's sort of a broad word to describe all of those things. Of course, logic tells us that of course people get divorced because they are "incompatible" because other wise there's no reason for it!
I see your point about "classes" before getting married, and I'm aware Catholics do that sort of thing. I think it's not a bad idea, as long as at the end you don't have someone giving you a pass/fail on if you can get married or not.
The classes you go through as a catholic really just focus on how to live with each other... its the same stuff you would learn from having a room mate. There needs to mbe more than that in a class. :) My hubby and I went through those classes when we were married, and we thought it was funny, because we had lived together for a year prior, and all they talked about was the things we learned through that time... there is a whole new set of issues to consider in the actual "marriage" lol... I agree with the classes or somehting to make it more difficult to et married on the fly.
The only thing I wonder is if you have two kids who are dumb and in love, a class (or whatever) might not dissuade them from getting married. They might also not ever apply what they learn to real-life.Quote:
Jesushelper76 agrees: No one gets a pass or fail, but you get to learn what differences you have and how to deal with them. Also what is similar. There is more to it then that of course.
I don't know, I still think education and example are the best ways to reduce the divorce rates.
I find it simply divine that so many posters spend all their energy trying to find methods of dealing with divorce rather than how to end divorce…just as people who try to find methods like welfare to deal with poverty, rather than trying to end poverty.
As I was reading the posts, I noticed some things were said about "If parents raised their kids right" -
Is that to say that if parents did their job then these kids wouldn't get into trouble? They would know the difference of right and wrong - and if they don't act like they do - then the parents messed up?
I think that is crazy (on a certain level). My parents have been married for over 42 years. They are very much in love and show it. They are a wonderful example of what a marriage looks like. As individuals, they are also great examples of what a good person, living a good, clean life looks like. I am very blessed to have the examples that I do.
Saying that - I, as well as my siblings, have gotten into trouble in the past. We have tried drugs, alcohol, etc. I skipped school as a teen, was rebelious.
My brother is divorced.
Did my parents not do their job?
I am a parent now. I am trying to do my very best everyday. When my child is old enough to make decisions for herself, I hope she makes the right ones. If she doesn't - have I failed? I hope not.
I think saying "parents should do their job" is a cop out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
I know - we can end divorce by not allowing marriage. :D
Our "war on.." drugs or poverty or intolerance or a war to end all wars or insert human flaw here ______ is going so well. :p
Grace and Peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
You still haven't answered MY question back to you: How would making divorce illegal actually fix things?
To answer my original question in the OP- no! A ban on all divorces would not change the social decay in America, nor would making it harder to obtain be the solution to all our societal woes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
But what might lower the over 50% marriages that end in divorce would be such things as making marriages harder to obtain, not to end.
Forget the marriage counseling just before divorce and make it mandatory before marriage, higher ages of consent, require a marriage license, and then a waiting period before the ceremony, close drive-through "chapels-o-love", It almost seems obvious that the solution is to make marriages harder to obtain, not to end. Statistics support this claim too: the younger the couple was when they married, the more likely they are to divorce.
:p
You should be commended for trying, but I think your logic here is a bit flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
If you make it harder to “marry”, that doesn't solve anything.
So perhaps my girlfriend and I won't marry. Instead we will just live together, have kids together. 15 years from now when we separate, we aren't divorcing, because we never married. Yet, how is that any difference since our kids now have their parents living apart?
So what if the divorce rate is 50%?
If my girlfriend and I marry and in 5 years divorce, and we have no kids, who are we hurting by getting a divorce?
The real problems is when 2 people (whether married or just living together), break up, and they share kids together…that is what hurts society far more than 2 people with no kids who divorce.
Ohhh Captain, you just go ahead an do what-ever it is you people do, and don’t fret none over this.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainForest
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