Ask Me Help Desk - Why support Israel?

Quote:

Originally Posted by VBNomad

Please accept my appologies. I was angry. I said some irrational things. Being called anti-semetic because I question the US's one sided stance towards Israel by several of you made it very difficult to take any of you seriously at all. I regret the attempt at sarcasm. Sorry I offended those who are serious. Have a wonderful holiday season.

See there you go again. To state that the US's stance towards Isreal is one sided is inaccurate and a misrepresentation.

I will back off on my contention that you are anti-Semitic. I will just say that you are anti-Isreal. While the two often go hand in hand (hence my mistake), its possible to be anti-Isreal without being anti-semitic.

But the bottom line here is that your arguments against continued US support of Isreal and the level of that support is extremely biased, inaccurate and misleading.

In my opinion there are two ways to stop the carnage in the middle East. One way would be to let the Arabs win and wipe Isreal off the map. The other way would be for the Arabs to recognize Isreal's existence and to stop trying to drive them out with terrorist attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

I admire your courage, and I look forward to a similar apology from those who levelled the anti-semitism charge. Equating criticism of the policies and actions of the US and Israeli governments with prejudice against an entire people is completely unwarranted and unjustified.

I disagree. As I said above, since Isreal is a Jewish state, its very hard to separate criticism for the state from prejudice against the people. The reason for the strife in the Middle East between Isreal and its neighbors is religious hatred. So equating criticism of Isreal with anti-semitism is neither unwarranted or unjustified. Especially when that criticism is based on inaccurate and misleading propaganda promoted by anti-semitic groups.

But I do concede that it is possible to be anti-Isreal and not anti-Semitic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

I admire your courage, and I look forward to a similar apology from those who levelled the anti-semitism charge

Hello again, ordinary:

Yet, you mischaracterize defending yourself, as murder. When I point out your, shall I say, deliberate misuse of words, and suggest that you have OTHER motives, you say I owe YOU an apology??

In a pigs eye!

Instead of platitudes, why don't you actually argue with me? Tell me, how in your mind, defending yourself become murder. Dude! If you can't discuss this in a rational way, that's fine. But you don't win points by standing by huffily, demanding an apology. Plus, if you don't argue, it means you TOO accept what I say as truth.

excon

The anti-gentile sentiments here are appalling! :)

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

The anti-gentile sentiments here are appalling! :)

Hello again, Need:

I suspect your comment was made to, dash some water, so to speak, on an inflamed situation - hence, the smiley face. It didn't work.

The Jews have been accused, right here, if you care to look, of MURDER. When I ask why, I get nothing but... well, I get nothing, period!

I haven't yet accused gentiles of murder. I haven't accused them of anything, except a few here of some blatant anti-Semitism.

Accusing a few who exhibit anti-Semitic traits, and who say anti-Semitic things of being, dare I say, anti-Semitic, isn't close to anti-gentilisim. It's close to the truth.

I just consider this more name calling from those who can't argue about events that actually happen on the ground.

excon

Dude, you need some happy time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Murder is a legal term. Soldiers don't murder - they kill their enemy.
Israeli’s don't MURDER - they kill their enemy. The enemy are combatants - not civilians. Any Israeli targeting killing is against an ENEMY FIGHTER - not civilians. ANY civilians killed by Israel are collateral damage.

By your precise legal definition of the word, no agent of a government (military or otherwise) acting in his official capacity can commit murder, since any killing they do is sanctioned by the state and therefore not a crime. I'll accept that. I don't accept that that necessarily makes it moral or respectable. Asassination (extra-judicial killing) is legal in Israel, but not in the US, so here it would be murder, but there it isn't.

Before the state of Israel was formed, the zionist underground used bombing of civilian targets as an instrument of policy.

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"In the summer of 1945, the Labor party came to power in Great Britain. They had promised that they would reverse the British White Paper and would support a Jewish state in Palestine. However, they presently reneged on their promise, and continued and redoubled efforts to stop Jewish immigration. The Haganah attempted to bring immigrants into Palestine illegally. The rival Zionist underground groups now united, and all of them, in particular the Irgun and Lehi ("Stern gang") dissident terrorist groups, used force to try to drive the British out of Palestine. This included bombing of trains, train stations, an officers club and British headquarters in the King David Hotel, as well as kidnapping and murder of British personnel." www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

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Originally Posted by excon

MURDER is when a bomber intentionally kills innocent civilians. Palestinians do that ALL the time.

Yes, they do, and it's murder when they do it and it was murder when the zionists did it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottGem

I disagree. As I said above, since Isreal is a Jewish state, its very hard to separate criticism for the state from prejudice against the people.

Not so hard, actually. The state of Israel is a nation with a government. Jews are a cultural and ethnic group, some of whom live in the state of Israel, many of which do not. Many Jews, both inside and outside Israel are critical of the policies of the Israeli government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottGem

But I do concede that it is possible to be anti-Isreal and not anti-Semitic.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, ordinary:
Yet, you mischaracterize defending yourself, as murder. When I point out your, shall I say, deliberate misuse of words, and suggest that you have OTHER motives, you say I owe YOU an apology?? excon

Actually, I thought it was VB who was owed the apology, specifically because of this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, VB:
Nahhh, I think it's an anti-Semitic thing... They don't murder... They are moral... They are respectable...

If you believe otherwise, you are an anti-Semite!! Or you don't have a clue what's going on in the world. Me?? I choose to think you're an anti-Semite!
Excon

And this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottGem

So you may think you are not being anti-Semitic, but you are. You are spouting the same tired anti-Semitic, anti-Isreal propaganda that its enemies have been using since 1948.
...
So my friend, when you take the anti-Semitic blinders off and look at the true historical facts, you might realize how foolish and prejudiced you have made yourself look.

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Originally Posted by excon

Instead of platitudes, why don't you actually argue with me?

Because I hate to argue. I don't think it usually does any good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Plus, if you don't argue, it means you TOO accept what I say as truth.

If that's what it means to you, I won't argue with you. To me, it means I've decided not to waste any more time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

Before the state of Israel was formed, the zionist underground used bombing of civilian targets as an instrument of policy.

Yes, they do, and it's murder when they do it and it was murder when the zionists did it.

I don't get your point here. Yes SOME of the zionists committed heinous acts. The arabs didn't invent terrorism or even suicide bombings. The State of Isreal is not proud of it. As I've said, there are a number of things they have done that should and have been condemned.

The OP makes claims that such actions have not been condemned, that the US turns a blind eye to them. Those claims are untrue.

Nor does it change the fact that everything the State of Isreal has done has been in defense of its right to exist. If the attacks were to cease and its neighbors agreed to let Isreal exist in peace, then there would be no need for those actions to occur. Any criticism of Isreal has to be viewed from that perspective.

But $2 billion a year of US funding since 1971? That seems a bit excessive. T

Quote:

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

I admire your courage, and I look forward to a similar apology from those who levelled the anti-semitism charge. Equating criticism of the policies and actions of the US and Israeli governments with prejudice against an entire people is completely unwarranted and unjustified.

Well, Thank you, Ordinaryguy. I won't hold my breath for the apologies. My New Year's resolution is to stop wasting so much time arguing with nit-wits and nazis. Have a nice year ordinaryguy. And if you continue the fight for reason, you have my deepest regards, and I admire your courage as well.

I was going to report your last post and have it removed, but I changed my mind. As excon pointed out, resorting to insults, especially such obviously false insults, shows your true agenda.

I think your actions confirm our suspicions that your are an anti-semite. I will close by pointing out that you have given no proof to support your allegations. Your resorting to insults is just a coverup to divert attention from the fact that everything you have said here is anti-Isreal, anti-Semitic proganda.

Oh, please Scott, by all mean, contact the moderator. Perhaps he will notice that you and the con have been specific in your insults and name calling. While my comment about 'nitwits and nazi's' was generic - about this and other forums - not just this thread or you two. So maybe the moderator will take your posts off since they are insulting. For the moderator's benefit, and the rest of us, maybe you would like to define anti-semetism. I know what Websters says, but how do you define this term?

Hello VB:

I know, you didn't ask the "con", but I thought I'd answer anyway.

I've been thinking. I don't know if it was you or the ordinary dude who brought it up, but whoever did it, was right.

In 1945, before the state of Israel was founded, the tactics used by some of the future Israeli's could rightly be called terrorist. I was 3.

Now we can argue about the beginnings, as I'm sure we will, but I wouldn't equate the population of Israel today, with those who aren't alive anymore.

They don't murder today. If you can cite an instance where they do, then I would agree that pointing it out, ISN'T anti-Semitic. However, saying they're murderers, when they aren't, is like saying WE'RE murders because Custer murdered some Indians. The logic is faulty.

So, either your history is off, or you're anti-Semitic. Calling people murderers, when they're the VICTIM of murderers, is anti-Semitic. You may think that's a slur. It isn't. It's a description of your attitude, since you don't look to history.

excon

Anti-Semitism is hostility toward or prejudice against Jews as a religious, racial, or ethnic group. Since Isreal is a Jewish state, run by and for jewish peoples, hostility towards the state of Isreal can be considered anti-semitism.

What you did was pure name-calling. It was inaccurate and irrational. In describing you as anti-semitic, I have your own words to back me up. I tried, earlier, to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your vulgarities and your insistence on spouting one-sided propaganda shows your true colors.

So what's hostility against the Iraqi people called? What's hostility against Germany called? What's hostility against Canada called?

Hello again, Need:

If someone tried to extinguish one of those groups, I'm sure the world would find a suitable word for it - just like the world found the word anti-Semitism when it happened to the Jews.

excon

This statement,

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottGem

Since Isreal is a Jewish state, run by and for jewish peoples, hostility towards the state of Isreal can be considered anti-semitism.

Doesn't follow from this statement

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottGem

Anti-Semitism is hostility toward or prejudice against Jews as a religious, racial, or ethnic group.

Unless there is no difference between the nation and the ethnic group. But of course they are different, and you know that.

So I guess you didn't really mean this, huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottGem

But I do concede that it is possible to be anti-Isreal and not anti-Semitic.

By the way, the correct spelling is "Israel", not "Isreal".

Vulgarities? Before you dive into another round of name calling... how is questioning American foreign policy, or the defense policy of Israel anti-Semitism? How is wishing that our closest ally in the Mid East would behave respectably anti-Semitic? Is it because I didn't start multiple threads asking why we support each of our allies? I picked the one that seems to be causing us the most trouble over these long decades. I think the one that we give multiple billions of our tax dollars to each year should at least be scrutinized. But I take it not in your world view, huh? Suggesting scrutiny of Israel equates to bigotry.

I think blind allegiance to Israel, especially if you are only an outside observer - an American citizen, for instance - is bigotry. Yes, Scott I think it's you who has the problem. Your words, the speed to which you resort to hurling insults. Your definition doesn’t even hang together with the argument. You are the bigot. Not me.

The murder of innocents I was talking about was when Israeli artillery shelled the Palestinian town killing a large family in their house. They weren't combatants. They were civilians, just like the civilians in Southern Lebanon, and just like the UN observers who died by Israeli artillery fire. These are well documented instances in the last six months. I don't know where international law comes down on UN observers, but intentionally targeting civilians is a war crime. "Collateral damage" is a nice, antiseptic phrase, but when you are standing in the dock at the Hague the word is murder.

I think we need our ally to act respectably if we are ever to solve the conflict in the Mid East. 30 years of rubber stamping one outrage after another has not served the United States well.

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Originally Posted by VBNomad

Vulgarities?

Sorry, I used the wrong word. Vulgarities was incorrect. Instead I should have used abusive insults.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VBNomad

how is questioning American foreign policy, or the defense policy of Israel anti-Semitism?

I have already explained why I think you are exhibiting anti-semitism. Please go back and reread those explanations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VBNomad

How is wishing that our closest ally in the Mid East would behave respectably anti-Semitic? Is it because I didn't start multiple threads asking why we support each of our allies? I picked the one that seems to be causing us the most trouble over these long decades. I think the one that we give multiple billions of our tax dollars to each year should at least be scrutinized. But I take it not in your world view, huh? Suggesting scrutiny of Israel equates to bigotry.

I think blind allegiance to Israel, especially if you are only an outside observer - an American citizen, for instance - is bigotry. Yes, Scott I think it's you who has the problem. Your words, the speed to which you resort to hurling insults. Your definition doesn't even hang together with the argument. You are the bigot. Not me.

The problem here is that you continue to ignore any facts that don't fit into the propaganda you believe in. Your suggestion that our alliance with Israel shouldn't be scrutinized makes the invalid assumption that it isn't already.

Bigotry is the hatred of a group of people simply because they are part of that group. I haven't expressed hatred or even antipathy towards anyone. So your accusation of bigotry is just another of your unsupported claims.

As for blind allegiance. You are again ignoring the facts. I have said several times that Israel has done things I don't support and they should not be proud of. Things that I have been critical of. But, unlike you, I look at the larger picture. I look at how Israel is beset by groups dedicated to their destruction. I look at why so-called civilians are sometimes killed when Israel retaliates for attacks against it. I look at the atrocities committed against Israel. When I look at the big picture and all the facts, I feel that continued support of Israel is the right thing to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VBNomad

The murder of innocents I was talking about was when Israeli artillery shelled the Palestinian town killing a large family in their house. They weren't combatants. They were civilians, just like the civilians in Southern Lebanon, and just like the UN observers who died by Israeli artillery fire. These are well documented instances in the last six months. I don't know where international law comes down on UN observers, but intentionally targeting civilians is a war crime. "Collateral damage" is a nice, antiseptic phrase, but when you are standing in the dock at the Hague the word is murder.

Again you ignore the fact about why so-called civilians get killed in instances like those. You ignore that Hamas and Hezbollah continually launch their attacks from such civilian areas. They bear a greater part of the responsibility for such casualties. Until you condemn them for those actions, until you condemn them for constantly harassing Israel, until you condemn them for putting their civilians at risk then your comments bear the mark of anti-semitism In my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VBNomad

I think we need our ally to act respectably if we are ever to solve the conflict in the Mid East. 30 years of rubber stamping one outrage after another has not served the United States well.

And here is where you go so far afield as to be ludicrous. There is only one way to solve the conflict in the Middle East. I stated it earlier. Get organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas to acknowledge Israel's right to exist and to stop attacking it. Get countries like Syria to stop funding these terrorists organizations. Get such countries to also acknowledge Israel's right to exist. That's where the road to peace lies. Why should ANYONE ask Israel to act respectably when their enemies show no inclination to do likewise? For us to withdraw our support or publicly chastise Israel for actions that are not what you refer to as respectable is only to provide fodder for Israel's enemies to continue their attacks.

No, the problem is you. Your extremely one-sided view, your refusal to consider facts that mitigate or falsify your position indicate a prejudice that supports the anti-semitic tag.

What would you have a nation do, if they are attacked with rockets from southern Lebanon and embeds itself into the population? What would you have a nation do when people strap bombs to themselves and walks into a crowd of every day people? What would you have a nation do who is openly terrorized by fanatics who promise the death of Israelis? What would you have a nation of people do when all their neighbors harbor weapons and fanatical nuts, who openly seek the overthrow and death to millions of Israeli people? The Israeli state in question has a right to seek and destroy its enemies and all who follow the path of destruction that hatred and stupidity have brought to its people. What makes anyone think these misguided souls will stop at just destroying the Jewish nation when they have already said that WE, America is next. Call names and place blame, the real threat of nuts to kill and destroy others is a threat to us ALL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VBNomad

The murder of innocents I was talking about was when Israeli artillery shelled the Palestinian town killing a large family in their house. They weren't combatants. They were civilians, just like the civilians in Southern Lebanon,......... but when you are standing in the dock at the Hague the word is murder.

Hello again, VB:

No, no they weren't. The civilians in Northern Israel, killed by the shelling from Hezbollah, were targeted by the government. The civilians killed by Israel were killed by mistake. There's a difference there - a BIG difference.

I don't excuse those killings. The US didn't excuse those killings. But, most importantly, THE ISRALI GOVERNMENT DIDN'T EXCUSE THOSE KILLINGS. Investigations ARE underway. IF somebody DELIBERATELY targeted civilians, THEY WILL BE PUNISHED. Israel IS a civilized country, contrary to Gaza or Southern Lebanon.

The difference is, and what you fail to see, is that it's the PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT itself, that targets and pays for the killing of civilians, and the suicide bombers who do it.. and the rocket launchers. Nobody is punished - ever…. Just the opposite.

This information is clear, and similar information has been available for over 50 years. Some people want to see it differently than it is. When that difference is aimed at the Jews, it's called anti-Semitism.

excon