Hey, why don't we change our money, too, while we're at it. Don't want anyone who is offended by the word God to get their hands soiled when they spend it. Here's a question... is the word God found in the Declaration of Independence? Yes, it is. Nature's God is in the first paragraph. I wonder if Mother Nature has a problem with that one; maybe not if it can be construed that Nature's God is a woman! Come to think of it... the words she and her aren't in that document, but as a woman, I'm supposed to accept that it applies to me.

My point, and I do have one, is that God is just another word for Creator, and each religion has and uses it's own name for it. We can take exception to just about any word; women can take exception to the use of the word he for everything under the sun.

I don't believe we should alter particular words in historical documents, so why would we alter them in the Pledge? If you prefer not to say God, then say the name of the Creator you identify with. Or just say Creator. As for saying the Pledge in the public schools, allegiance to the flag and the country is a personal thing, an adult thing, and children shouldn't be expected to give it.

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Originally Posted by BBWfromPhilly

I don't believe we should alter particular words in historical documents, so why would we alter them in the Pledge?

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Hello BBW:

I agree. We should NOT do that.

Apparently you don't know that the words "under God" were ADDED to the pledge in the 50's. We should have left it alone.

excon

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Originally Posted by BBWfromPhilly

My point, and I do have one, is that God is just another word for Creator, and each religion has and uses it's own name for it. We can take exception to just about any word; women can take exception to the use of the word he for everything under the sun.

I don't believe we should alter particular words in historical documents, so why would we alter them in the Pledge? If you prefer not to say God, then say the name of the Creator you identify with. Or just say Creator. As for saying the Pledge in the public schools, allegence to the flag and the country is a personal thing, an adult thing, and children shouldn't be expected to give it.

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What if you don't believe in religion or a creator?

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Originally Posted by Skell

What if you dont believe in religion or a creator?

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Then you still have made a choice. In short, Atheism has never provided any foundational law, not one. We have them via the religious commandments that Jews and Christians hold dear. However even the G-dless unfaithful in the US, and your county as well, find them as necessary.


Bobby

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

Then you still have made a choice. In short, Atheism has never provided any foundational law, not one. We have them via the religious commandments that Jews and Christians hold dear. However even the G-dless unfaithful in the US, and your county as well, find them as necessary.


Bobby

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I didn't make a choice to not believe in god. I don't believe in god because he doesn't exist. That's like saying you made a choice not to believe in the tooth fairy, you just know better.

Even if I made a choice are you saying my choice is less important that yours? The point of complaining about "in god we trust" is that it's a start of something more. If the government has even one thing religious next it two things and then its four and so on by the time it starts to sound no so small it's to late.

Atheism(the lack of religion) was around long before people made up the concept of god. During that time people still had the concept of "do not kill" and "do not steal" they were needed for people to live together even as small groups. So I think it would be fair to say those concepts are atheism based concepts, religion just stole them and called them theirs.
The laws you speak of are basic laws of society and have nothing to do with religion.

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Originally Posted by Skell

What if you dont believe in religion or a creator?

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Then the words "under G-d" are meaningless to you, and therefore should not be offensive. They are just three meaningless sylables.

The only way to be offended by the words "under G-d" is if you not only don't believe in G-d or religion, but if you actively hate the concepts of G-d and religion. That's a whole lot different from just not believing in them. And last I heard, the fact that someone hates a concept that others enjoy is not constitutional gounds to eliminate that concept from our lexicon.

If it were, then pornography would be illegal, because a heck of a lot more people hate the concepts of porn than hate the concepts of G-d and religion. Do you advocate censorship of porn and its elimination from the USA?

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Then the words "under G-d" are meaningless to you, and therefore should not be offensive. They are just three meaningless sylables.

The only way to be offended by the words "under G-d" is if you not only don't believe in G-d or religion, but if you actively hate the concepts of G-d and religion.

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Hello again, El:

Boy, you righty's should chill. HE didn't say they were meaningless - YOU did. Plus, you're the one making up this hate stuff.

In fact, they MEAN a great deal. They're a big fat LIE for one. I can't say a LIE and call it meaningless. Our country is NOT under God, any more than it's UNDER the tooth fairy.

Plus, it's offensive on its face. It infers that our nation is better because we have God's approval.

Finally, if they're meaningless, just for drill, insert the (meaningless) words Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior in there and whisper them to yourself. You ought to be able to say them, if they don't MEAN anything. You might be even able to say them under your breath, and report back to me that you did it with no ill effects.

But, just try to imagine how you'd feel if those WERE the words that the Christians inserted, and forced you to say (if you wanted to say the pledge). What? It's different than God?? Yeah, a little. So what?

Nahhh, I think you're worthy of a better argument than THAT. But, that's all you're left with, cause there AIN'T a better argument than yours. Bummer.

excon

PS> By the way, I don't hate religion. I just don't think it should be mixed with government. Neither did the founders.

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"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States."

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George Washington 1st Inaugural Address.

When Washington recited the oath of office he said : "I do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will try to the best of my ability, to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

He then added the famous,( and unconstitutional I guess if I was to believe some of the participants of this thread) ,phrase "so help me God" to the end of his oath, and almost every president has added it since. He then bent down and kissed the bible he used in the ceremony .

He then followed the swearing in with the address cited above. He then finished the ceremony by leading a procession to St. Pauls Church (which, with the other churches, had been opened for prayers at nine o'clock that morning), and there they invoked the blessing of Almighty God upon the new government.

The reason I bring this up is that the founders recognized the hand of God ;or province ,which was their fancy word for a non-denominational God ,or as Wahington called it the "invisible hand " ,in the founding of the country . This is an undeniable fact. I doubt if the founders when confronted with this case about the pledge would've supported the proposition that "under God "in the pledge was unconstituional .

I don't believe the pledge in school is unconstitutional because it is not mandatory to make the pledge…it is absolutely a voluntary statement.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

When Washington recited the oath of office he said : "I do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will try to the best of my ability, to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

He then added the famous,( and unconstitutional I guess if I was to believe some of the participants of this thread) ,phrase "so help me God" to the end of his oath

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Hello tom:

There's no question that the founders were religious men. However, I think the fact the words “so help me God” were NOT included in the oath of office when they WROTE the Constitution, say's MOUTHFULS. And they wrote it AFTER Washington was president.

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

I don't believe the pledge in school is unconstitutional because it is not mandatory to make the pledge…it is absolutely a voluntary statement.

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Hello again, DC:

You're wrong. Any ORGANIZED activity in school isn't voluntary at all. I know you don't understand this, because you think ORGANIZED prayer in school can be voluntary too.

excon

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Originally Posted by michealb

It doesn't make it distinctly Christian but it does make it distinctly religious. In order to understand how annoyed others are with this. Replace under god with under satan and that your kid is forced to say under satan in public school when saying the pledge.

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Who is "forcing" anyone to say the pledge of allegiance? I didn't know anyone is "forced" to pledge allegiance to the flag.

Is this how you see it? Our constitution actually eliminates religion from government instead of preventing the establishment of an official religion such as Christianity, and freedom of speech doesn't include freedom from speech. Our founding document, the declaration of independence is unconstitutional, as is our national anthem for using the words "In God is our trust," all of our money is unconstitutional, as well as the Supreme Court itself for opening with "God save the United States and this Honorable Court," because all of those things are an affirmation of a particular religious faith or an establishment of religion.

Last I checked, "ceremonial deism" has been upheld numerous times by SCOTUS as not violating the establishment clause and also upheld that students cannot be compelled to recite the pledge. So what's the beef? If you don't want to recite the pledge, don't. If you do want to recite the pledge drop out during the "under God" portion.

And, if this country had been founded on the tenets of Satanism and had a 213 year history of Satanic principles and ceremonies you might have a point.

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Originally Posted by excon

You’re wrong. Any ORGANIZED activity in school isn’t voluntary at all. I know you don’t understand this, because you think ORGANIZED prayer in school can be voluntary too.

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Thanks I believe to a Jehovah's Witness, SCOTUS held that compelling students to recite the pledge was unconstitutional in 1943, 11 years before the words "under God" were added.

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We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.

The decision of this Court in Minersville School District v. Gobitis and the holdings of those few per curiam decisions which preceded and foreshadowed it are overruled, and the judgment enjoining enforcement of the West Virginia Regulation is affirmed.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Steve:

Not "distinctly", but pretty darn close.

Yes, there are other religions that worship "God". But, there are some that worship symbols and ideas. There are some who worship the land. There are even some who worship gargoyles and things. Then there's those potsafarians. And don't forget the atheists who have NO God at all.

It's true, they're in the minority. But, they're ALL still Americans who'd like to say the pledge....... if it was something they could say without winking and crossing their fingers.

It was - BEFORE the words "under God" were inserted. Truly, it was a pledge that ANY American could say......

I know you're a Christian man. I also know you're a sensible man. That's the way it SHOULD be here in America, no?? A pledge of allegiance for EVERYBODY???

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Ex, to be honest I would not be offended at removing the words "under God" from the pledge. But if you don't like it don't say those two words.

I'm just asking where does it stop, when we've officially eliminated God from this country? We already have folks throwing a fit - trying to eliminate our free speech in this area - over Christians that dare endorse a candidate or actually mention politics in church. Do you deny our religious heritage? I know you're smarter than that, so why do people want to do just that? They live in a country that is predominantly Christian with a religious heritage, why should the vast majority bow to their will?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I'm just asking where does it stop, when we've officially eliminated God from this country?

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Hello again, Steve:

Not from the country, but from the government. I want my government to be secular.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

Not from the country, but from the government. I want my government to be secular.

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YOU I think I could trust, it's those other wackos I wouldn't give an inch to. But really, how is our government not secular? The only constitutional restriction it has I believe is "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." Has our government established a religion? Is it compelling anyone to believe in God, not believe in God, attend church or not, favoring one religion over another? Has ANYONE ever been converted against their will because it says "In God we trust" on a nickel?

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Originally Posted by michealb

I didn't make a choice to not believe in god. I don't believe in god because he doesn't exist. Thats like saying you made a choice not to believe in the tooth fairy, you just know better. .

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You choose to say there is not a G-d. The evidence is that you wrote that in your reply. Are you going to deny that fact? And to use your porous example here, the one above that amused Excon so much after lighting up another left handed cigarette, you also choose to not believe in the tooth fairy. In fact, I choose not to believe in the tooth fairy. That's my choice. I still made it.

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Originally Posted by michealb

Even if I made a choice are you saying my choice is less important that yours?

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See here you do admit that you made a choice. That's wasn't do hard now, was it? Nothing personal, it's just understanding yourself. What's at essence here is your ideology that is being expressed.

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Originally Posted by michealb

The point of complaining about "in god we trust" is that it's a start of something more. If the government has even one thing religious next it two things and then its four and so on by the time it starts to sound no so small it's to late..

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Personally I could careless that the currency has anything written on it other than it's value. On this I somewhat agree, but I have perimeters in my life. So exactly why are you bellyaching? If it meant so little to Atheist why do they whine in pursuit of the removal? Ignore it and go your own way or just send your money to me, I'll spend it.:)

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Originally Posted by michealb

Atheism(the lack of religion) was around long before people made up the concept of god. During that time people still had the concept of "do not kill" and "do not steal" they were needed for people to live together even as small groups. So I think it would be fair to say those concepts are atheism based concepts, religion just stole them and called them theirs.

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You have a problem here Michael. You claim those laws are not based upon religious Faiths, but as a Jew I have thousands of years of ancestral history, both oral and written documentation and none it came from any Atheist organization. Courthouses have had the Decalogue hanging above judges heads in courtrooms for a longtime. Remember the Alabama controversy? And "yes" there are individual atheists, however Atheism also has organization, just like religion.

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Originally Posted by michealb

The laws you speak of are basic laws of society and have nothing to do with religion

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Friend, you're flying a wrinkled faded atheistic flag on a broken pole, stuck in mud. Those basic laws are "the fabric" in most societies, all productive ones, and have come down to us for thousands of years. And BTW it's more than just the basic "thou shalt not murder" and "do not steal." There is much more including damages and liabilities as well. I just gave the basics as an example, which was more than you gave in defense. If need be I'll post more mitzvoth to demonstrate.



Bobby

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

You choose to say there is not a G-d. The evidence is that you wrote that in your reply. Are you going to deny that fact?! And to use your porous example here, the one above that amused Excon so much after lighting up another left handed cigarette, you also choose to not believe in the tooth fairy. In fact, I choose not to believe in the tooth fairy. That's my choice. I still made it.




See here you do admit that you made a choice. That's wasn't do hard now, was it? Nothing personal, it's just understanding yourself. What's at essence here is your ideology that is being expressed.




Personally I could careless that the currency has anything written on it other than it's value. On this I somewhat agree, but I have perimeters in my life. So exactly why are you bellyaching? If it meant so little to Atheist why do they whine in pursuit of the removal? Ignore it and go your own way or just send your money to me, I'll spend it.:)




You have a problem here Michael. You claim those laws are not based upon religious Faiths, but as a Jew I have thousands of years of ancestral history, both oral and written documentation and none it came from any Atheist organization. Courthouses have had the Decalogue hanging above judges heads in courtrooms for a longtime. Remember the Alabama controversy? And "yes" there are individual atheists, however Atheism also has organization, just like religion.




Friend, you're flying a wrinkled faded atheistic flag on a broken pole, stuck in mud. Those basic laws are "the fabric" in most societies, all productive ones, and have come down to us for thousands of years. And BTW it's more than just the basic "thou shalt not murder" and "do not steal." There is much more including damages and liabilities as well. I just gave the basics as an example, which was more than you gave in defense. If need be I'll post more mitzvoth to demonstrate.



Bobby

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Bobby
These 'Religious Laws ("thou shalt not murder" and "do not steal.") you refer to are no more than Political common sense. A bit like atmospheric pressure - omnipresent, incredibly important, but usually very slight or gradual to us: An implicit set of beliefs that "go without saying." They define what seems obviously right and obviously wrong. Their power is all the greater because it feels so natural, so self-evident to us that when we use them, we don't realize that we're using them.

I am exceedingly hostile towards organized religion as a political and moral force, as any reasonable common sense should tell anyone

I need to ask a question here.

Is this topic about whether G-d exists or whether the Constitution allows the use of the words "under G-d" in public schools as part of the Pledge of Allegiance. It seems to me that we're starting to get a bit off topic here, with people commenting as to whether there is a G-d or not. I suggest that such a topic be relegated to the religion board, where I will be happy to argue the point with all Atheist and Agnostic comers. THIS topic should be relegated to Constitutional Law and the political implications of "Under God" and "In God We Trust", not theology.

On those points:

Nobody is forcing anyone to say the Pledge of Allegiance in any public school in the USA. If that statement is untrue, please show me the source for it, and I will state for the record that anyone forcing a child to say the pledge against their will is violating the law. But it isn't happening.

Some will talk about "peer pressure" and that kids are being forced to say the pledge because of peer pressure. Well, I disagree. We also talk about kids being forced by peer pressure to take drugs, drink alcohol or smoke cigarrettes. Do we accept the idea that our kids are totally helpless to counter peer pressure and just say "Oh, well, it's not really their choice, it's peer pressure?" Or do we expect our kids to make the right choices DESPITE peer pressure. Do we teach them that they have choices? Do we teach them to stand up against peer pressure? And if not, then aren't WE to blame for not doing so?

So if we and our kids can counter peer pressure with regard to drugs, achohol and smoking, then aren't they also free to counter peer pressure with regard to saying the words "under God" in the pledge? Especially when they can easily hide the fact that they didn't say those two words but say the rest of it? Or not say anything at all. There's no peer pressure involved here, or if there is, it is certainly easily countered. I don't buy the peer pressure argument.

"In God We Trust" is a little dicier in terms of having free choice. It is not really feasible to avoid using money in modern society. All money has IGWT on it. It might be argues that since people are being forced to use money (because you can't get along without it) they are being forced to use the words "In G-d We Trust" against their will.

But the word "God", in my opinion, is very ecumenical. Alchoholics Anonymous, which is as ardently ecumenical a group as is possible to find, uses the terms "Higher Power" and "God" interchangeably, by defining it as "the God of our understanding" and leaving the interpretation open to the individual member. The word "God" in and of itself, is quite ecumenical.

Atheists in AA who do not believe in a deity are taught to treat the AA membership as a whole as their Higher Power... they call this Higher Power G.O.D. for "Group of Drunks". Not exactly a religious image, is it. Others use "Good Orderly Decisions" or some other acronym that fits their personal theology or lack thereof.

When IGWT is used, nobody defines WHICH God it refers to. Does it mean the Jewish God? This Christian God? The Muslim God? Does it mean some other entity that is more sane than ourselves as AA means the term? Does it mean The Great Spirit, Buddha, the Tao, or Enlightenment? Does it mean Vishnu, Odin, Thor, Zeus, Apollo, or some other entity or pantheon of entities? Does it Mean the Great Bird of the Galaxy (a Star Trek reference for those who get it... )?

The government never defines "GOD". And because it doesn't it allows us to define it however we want, or not at all. THAT is the guarantee of religious freedom that allows IGWT to be used without it being a case of government forcing religion upon us. When it says "In God We Trust", we are free to determine WHICH G-d we mean, or free to choose none at all. That is where the freedom of religion lies. So I don't buy the argument that a religion is being forced on anyone.

Some argue that the existence of the word "god" in the pledge is offensive to them. FINE. Don't say it. Don't say the Pledge at all if you don't like it. Feel free to put your hands over your ears and hum to yourself so that you don't have to hear such an offensive word. I personally LIKE saying "under God" in the pledge. Who is Newdow to say that I don't have that right... that the Courts should no longer allow me to say it as part of the Pledge? What makes his offense at the term "under G-d" more imperative than my offense at having it removed? What about MY religious freedoms that are being stomped on by Newdow? Isn't my right to publicly say "Under G-d" in the Pledge of Allegiance guaranteed by the First Amendment right to free speech and free worship... even in public places?

As I said before, if Newdow is so offended by the words "Under God" then he doesn't have to say them. That's his choice. Nobody is forcing him. His rights aren't being violated by other people saying it, and him not doing so. But the elimination of "Under God" from the Pledge IS limiting MY right to say those words as part of the pledge... a violation of MY 1st Amendment rights.

I'd like anyone to point out where in the Constitution there is a guaranteed right to not be offended? Freedom of Worship is there. Freedom of Speech is there. But I have never found a Freedom from Offense in the Constitution. If Newdow is offended, so what? There is no Constitutional violation there. But if MY Constitutional rights, and those of millions of other Americans are curtailed, that is a matter of grave concern for ALL Americans. At least all those who believe in Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Bobby
These 'Religious Laws ("thou shalt not murder" and "do not steal.") you refer to are no more than Political common sense. A bit like atmospheric pressure - omnipresent, incredibly important, but usually very slight or gradual to us: An implicit set of beliefs that "go without saying."

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Chronologically speaking the civil laws came about after as a result of the religious. I'm not really certain if the word "religious" is even proper. That's really a modern word of description. In biblical Hebrew the word to describe Judaism is "dat" which means "faith." We didn't even use or have the word "religion." Anyway in short, more specifically a reference to the Noachide laws, but I don't think this is the board for that discussion. So we may all agree in the laws necessity, which I think we do, but it's not just a set of beliefs that "go without saying." I accept they had origin. I'll be glad to accommodate that subject on the Judaism board if anyone is willing to pursue it.

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

They define what seems obviously right and obviously wrong. Their power is all the greater because it feels so natural, so self-evident to us that when we use them, we don't realize that we're using them.

I am exceedingly hostile towards organized religion as a political and moral force, as any reasonable common sense should tell anyone

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It's like Elliot replies in his post above, "the word "God", in my opinion, is very ecumenical." DC, personally I do understand your point. Being Jewish, I feel the same way about having a missionary at my front door. To which I ignore them or dismantle their arguments using the Torah. I suspect most people must freely come to their own conclusions about life. But I maintain, to get back toward the political ramification of the subject, that I must be equally respected to say the pledge of allegiance, pray, and worship. If anyone doesn't like the words "In G-d We Trust" on currency then send me the money, I'm not offended.



Bobby

I'm not offended by the words under god. Offended is the wrong word. If the pledge was a private thing not endorsed by our country say what ever you want in it. However since we say it in public schools, I remember teachers making kids recite the pledge in high school and getting very annoyed at them in they didn't. Might have been unconstitional but they did it and since there are so few open athiests, chances of parent sueing over it are slim. Even if a parent did complain all that would happen is that a teacher would be told don't do it this year anymore.

I see this issue as a where do you draw the line issue. Do we say well "in god we trust" is okay and then when a christian senator says lets change it to "in Jesus we trust" because they are basically the same thing. Do we complain then? How about when the President of the United States says that he doesn't think athiests should have citizenship. Should we complain then? Wait that thing about the president already happened then we elected his son for two terms.