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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

It was done rather well prior to the 1960s. Illegal immigration was minimal because border security was TOUGH and because the government enforced employment laws. It is only since the 1960s and the rise of the political power of the far left with the civil-rights and anti-war movements that enforcing our borders became "too difficult". So I don't buy the argument that it can't be done, because it has been done.

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Hello El:

What??

That's what's so funny about you righty's. You think all you need to do is pass a law, put it in a book, and then enforce it. But, in your haste, and your law and order zeal, you forgot that we have 4,500 miles of open borders - 3,000 up north, and 1,500 down south. Dude. I don't know if you've spent much time out west. But, it's BIG out there.

The borders are not enforceable now, they never have been, and they never will be. That's not the fault of liberals. Bwa, ha ha ha.

excon

excon,

First of all, I'm not talking about passing new laws. We already have good laws on the books. I'm just talking about enforcing them as the law requires.

Second, I am talking about creating coverage for that 4500 miles of open border. That's the point. And I already talked in another post about a cost-effective way to do that. We take our military units that need training in desert warfare and place them along the borders. They train in desert warfare AND border security, both of which have applications to the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan. That makes it effective training. Stopping border crossings in the southwestern part of the USA is not radically different from stopping border crossings in Iraq and Afghanistan. Good training environment. We rotate units in and out of the area as needed, with each unit rotated through becoming responsible for border security. It's cheap in terms of labor (these soldiers are already on the government payroll) and cost effective in terms of training environments and practical training. Andf a few thousand troops with the appropriate equipment on the borders at any one time will certainly close most of the gaps in border security, don't you think?

So, no, I'm not just throwing out the idea of "making a new law" without any consideration of the consequences. I've followed through with a cost-effective, practical, workable idea for implementation. The border CAN be enforced effectively. It just takes a bit of thinking outside the box.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

excon,

First of all, I'm not talking about passing new laws. We already have good laws on the books. I'm just talking about enforcing them as the law requires.

Second, I am talking about creating coverage for that 4500 miles of open border. That's the point. And I already talked in another post about a cost-effective way to do that. We take our military units that need training in desert warfare and place them along the borders. They train in desert warfare AND border security, both of which have applications to the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan. That makes it effective training. Stopping border crossings in the southwestern part of the USA is not radically different from stopping border crossings in Iraq and Afghanistan. Good training environment. We rotate units in and out of the area as needed, with each unit rotated through becoming responsible for border security. It's cheap in terms of labor (these soldiers are already on the government payroll) and cost effective in terms of training environments and practical training. Andf a few thousand troops with the appropriate equipment on the borders at any one time will certainly close most of the gaps in border security, don't you think?

So, no, I'm not just throwing out the idea of "making a new law" without any consideration of the consequences. I've followed through with a cost-effective, practical, workable idea for implementation. The border CAN be enforced effectively. It just takes a bit of thinking outside the box.

Elliot

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OMG! Why not set a security perimeter and mine the damm area.:eek:

Or, we could make it a hate crime to hire anyone here illegally, or rent to, sell to, or associate with.

Maybe Blackwater could use their heavy handed ways to keep them out!

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Or, we could make it a hate crime to hire anyone here illegally, or rent to, sell to, or associate with.

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Like I said to excon, we don't need new laws. The ones that already exist are just fine. We just need to start enforcing them.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Like I said to excon, we don't need new laws. The ones that already exist are just fine. We just need to start enforcing them.

Elliot

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I can just imagine similar conversations taking place about the borders of the Mandate for Palestine by the British between 1923 and 1948 regarding illegal Jewish immigration. :)

DC,

The British mandate was very effective at border control in what was then Palestine. I may not like the fact that they did it, but there is no doubt that it was effective.

That said, they managed to do it through military control of the borders. That's exactly what I'm proposing here. And I believe that it can be just as effective, or more so, than the British were in Palestine.

Rather than turning my argument off, you are actually proving my point for me. If you want effective border control, get the military involved.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

DC,

The British mandate was very effective at border control in what was then Palestine. I may not like the fact that they did it, but there is no doubt that it was effective.

That said, they managed to do it through military control of the borders. That's exactly what I'm proposing here. And I believe that it can be just as effective, or more so, than the British were in Palestine.

Rather than turning my argument off, you are actually proving my point for me. If you want effective border control, get the military involved.

Elliot

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So there were no illegal Jewish immigrants into the mandate between 1923 and 1948 according to you. Well, that’s some news the world should hear about. That’s like denying the Holocaust.

I didn't say there were NONE. But it is fairly clear that not as many got in as wished to. In fact, the vast majority of Jewish immigrants never made it to Palestine until AFTER Israeli statehood in 1948. That is part of the reason that so many Jews died in the Holocaust despite warnings from various Zionist leaders like Hertzl, Jabotinsky, and others to get out of Europe and return to our historical homeland. They couldn't get into Palestine, the USA wasn't taking them, and nobody else wanted them either. (And in a few cases, they didn't want to leave Europe anyway... but that is a topic for another string.) For the most part the British border control over Palestine in the 20s and 30s and early 40s was very tight.

After 1944 or so things started changing because the Jews inside Palestine were starting to organize into an effective anti-British force that was able to counter the British border security. It was only with indiginous help from Jews already inside Palestine that the tight security began to weaken.

The USA does not have an indiginous organized movement that is willing to take on the US military in combat to weaken border security. So there is no parallel to the reasons that the British Mandate's border security failed at the end. There IS quite a bit of parallel as to why their tight security worked for as long as it did.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

I didn't say there were NONE. But it is fairly clear that not as many got in as wished to. In fact, the vast majority of Jewish immigrants never made it to Palestine until AFTER Israeli statehood in 1948. That is part of the reason that so many Jews died in the Holocaust despite warnings from various Zionist leaders like Hertzl, Jabotinsky, and others to get out of Europe and return to our historical homeland. They couldn't get into Palestine, the USA wasn't taking them, and nobody else wanted them either. (And in a few cases, they didn't want to leave Europe anyway... but that is a topic for another string.) For the most part the British border control over Palestine in the 20s and 30s and early 40s was very tight.

After 1944 or so things started changing because the Jews inside Palestine were starting to organize into an effective anti-British force that was able to counter the British border security. It was only with indiginous help from Jews already inside Palestine that the tight security began to weaken.

The USA does not have an indiginous organized movement that is willing to take on the US military in combat to weaken border security. So there is no parallel to the reasons that the British Mandate's border security failed at the end. There IS quite a bit of parallel as to why their tight security worked for as long as it did.

Elliot

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As I have persistently argued, illegal immigration cannot be stopped, and what success the British had was because they were brutal, and shot illegals' trying to enter Israel. What will stop it is saturation, if there is no work available the number will dwindle on its own. Even now the numbers are going down. Have you forgotten supply and demand?:D

You don't need "saturation" to make that happen. If you enforce the laws so that illegals can't get jobs, it will have the same effect as if the jobs didn't exist at all or were saturated.

And yes, brutality works. Where's the problem with that? We have 11 million people who have invaded our borders. Doesn't that constitute an "invasion in force"? And if so, why should I have a problem with brutality in turning back that invasion?

But it doesn't take butality. It does take being unrelenting in the enforcement of the border. Not brutal, not hurtful, just unrelenting, unstopping, and not letting anything get past you. You can enforce the laws with a smile and without hitting or shooting anyone. Just as long as you do enforce the laws. And soldiers, in my experience, are very good at enforcing the rules with complete politeness and respect for the person they are enforcing against.

Elliot

I say we all come up with our own plans... write them down... take a vote (between the people not government) and try it out...
Nothing is being done so far so what could it hurt? Sheesh!

My swipe about blackwater was just that. A swipe. I don't really appreciate how big a problem it is for the US with illegal immigration but I do understand it is a major issue.

In actual fact I didn't mind the idea of the military. So long as they acted legally and ethically.

Brutality though, no.

If you find a way that works let us know and maybe we'll be able to stop all these whinging poms and stinkin New Zealanders that find a way in down here by the thousands each year.

They're taking up my spot on the beach and they're ugly without their shirts on!

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Originally Posted by Skell

My swipe about blackwater was just that. A swipe. I dont really appreciate how big a problem it is for the US with illegal immigration but i do understand it is a major issue.

In actual fact i didnt mind the idea of the military. So long as they acted legally and ethically.

Brutality though, no.

If you find a way that works let us know and maybe we'll be able to stop all these whinging poms and stinkin New Zealanders that find a way in down here by the thousands each year.

They're takin up my spot on the beach and they're ugly without their shirts on!

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I don’t have a problem regarding illegal immigrants; they fill a very useful slot in society. As I mentioned to Elliot, supply and demand will control it.
Interestingly enough employment is not a problem either, except for employers.

“In Florida, a line technician makes a base wage of $53,000 and with overtime can earn up to $100,000. That's pretty good money, for a job that can't be offshored and is unlikely to be nabbed by an illegal immigrant. But the electrical industry is getting awfully nervous because, well, kids today don't seem to want to become line technicians, and the ones that are on the job are getting a little gray around the temple. Half of Florida's line technicians are reportedly set to retire within five years.”

How the World Works: Globalization, Globalization Blogs - Salon.com

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

I don’t have a problem regarding illegal immigrants; they fill a very useful slot in society. As I mentioned to Elliot, supply and demand will control it.
Interestingly enough employment is not a problem either, except for employers.

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Does your opinion change depending on what country they originate from?
Do you like illegals from one area but not from another?

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Originally Posted by Skell

Does your opinion change depending on what country they originate from?
Do you like illegals from one area but not from another?

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Yeah, I’m a Western Hemisphere kind of guy. I picture it as being like the EU someday. The illegal immigrant does not effect regular immigration, and regular immigration is selective enough that it does not effect the poverty stricken illegal. So it works just fine to fill two separate needs

I can see your point. Seems fair enough!

How is illegal immigration fair to legal immigrants? If anything illegal immigrants are cutting front of good people that are trying to follow the laws. Why should we reward people that break the law and punish those that follow the law. If we need people to fill jobs lets open up more legal immigration. I don't see any racism in that statement. How can you?

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How is illegal immigration fair to legal immigrants?

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There is an assumption being made with that line of thinking that is made about money. And that is that there is only so much money to divide. As I mentioned earlier, “The illegal immigrant does not effect regular immigration, and regular immigration is selective enough that it does not effect the poverty stricken illegal. So it works just fine to fill two separate needs.”

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Why should we reward people that break the law and punish those that follow the law. If we need people to fill jobs lets open up more legal immigration.

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First, they are not being rewarded because when they are caught they are deported. Legal immigration is expensive, too expensive for the laborers who make-up the great majority of illegals.

There are certainly some racist, but I think they are very relatively few.