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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Ban guns? Are you nuts? Do you WANT to give away all your rights and freedoms? Do you enjoy the idea that the government will be able to do anything they want to you and you will never be able to stop them because they are armed and you aren't? That's what happened in Hitler's Nazi Germany. The first thing he did was eliminate guns in the hands of civilians. The second thing he did was eliminate their rights. And they couldn't do a damn thing about it because they weren't armed.

Elliot

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Hahahahaha... Forgive me as I wipe the spits of laughter from mt screen. Hahahaha. Oh please make it stop. It hurts to laugh this hard.

Having gun control laws gives away your rights and freedoms??

You think because you have that little pistol tucked under your pillow that it gives you supreme power over your government? Hahahaha. Sorry again. Your mighty US army will be defeated by civilians with hand guns and the like? Is that what you're saying?? C'mon. I thought you were an intelligent man El.

The rest of the world seems to do just fine without every man and women carrying a weapon. Oh that's right, in your view the rest of the world doesn't exist. If it isn't american it isn't right. The rest of the world is wrong. Never us!! Go and tell that to the parents of the next kid gunned down at school who's parents left that gun they needed to over throw Bush unattended and their 8 year old took it to school and blew away 3 of his mates.

Oh that's right. Its personal responsibility. Blame the kid and parents. Not the weapon. It didn't play a part!!

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You think because you have that little pistol tucked under your pillow that it gives you supreme power over your government?

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No. I think the 50 cal Barrett high-powered, anti-material, light anti-armor sniper rifle tucked in my gun rack gives me supreme power over the government. Especially if 300 million other people are similarly armed.

THAT is the reason for the second amendment. 300 million people armed against the possibility of the 1.4 million members of the US military being used in a coup. You tell me the odds in that situation. It's not the lone gunman with the Barreta 9 mm. It's the 300 million with hunting rifles, shotguns, semi-automatics, automatics, pistols, army surplus equipment, etc. that protect our liberties.

If even 2% of the nation is armed, that means 6 million people able to stand against our standing military force of 1.4 million. You don't see that as an equalizer? Sure the military has better equipment. But as is often said in military circles, quantity creates a quality of its own. 2:1 odds? I'll take it. And I'll take 300:1 odds even more.

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The rest of the world seems to do just fine without every man and women carrying a weapon.

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Yeah... they're living really well in Iran, Cuba, China, North Korea, Syria, and all the other dictatorships where guns aren't allowed.

Oh... you mean WESTERN countries. Like Sweden... oh, crap, that's not right. Everyone owns a gun in Sweden. They actually have to own one by law since anyone can be called up for amy service at any time. Or maybe you mean Australia... nope that doesn't work either, since guns are prevalent there as well. Israel? Nope. They all own guns too. The UK? Yeah, guns are illegal. And people don't own guns unless they happen to be rich, Irish, a criminal, etc.

So, exactly which countries are you talking about? Which "rest of the world" do you mean?

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Its personal responsibility. Blame the kid and parents. Not the weapon. It didn't play a part!!

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Are you saying that it isn't about personal responsibility? If the parents in your hypothetical case had taken responsibility to lock up their gun properly, their 8-year-old would never have gotten his hands on it.

Your discounting of personal responsibility is the cause of so many of the problems we see in society today. People don't take responsibility for ANYTHING today. Not for sex, not for drugs, not for guns, not for smoking, not for how they eat, not for making a living. Nobody is responsible. The GOVERNMENT should take responsibility for all these things and impose rules (which people break regularly) of conduct.

Tell me, Skell, which country with gun control laws has actually been able to keep guns out of the hands of people? If they can't stop drugs from coming into their countries, what makes you think that they can ever stop guns from coming into their countries? And even if you manage to take guns out of the hands of citizens, what makes you think they won't just go to the black market and get another one? The whole idea that "taking away people's guns gets them off the streets" is pure sh!theadedness.

I find it intersting that the States with the strictest gun control laws have the most gun crimes. I find it interesting that countries in Europe with the strictest gun control laws have the highest levels of gun crimes. And I find it interesting that Israel and Sweden, the two countries with the most liberal gun laws have both the lowest level of gun crime and the lowest levels of gun-related accidents. Gee, I wonder why that is.

No I don't. I already know the answer.

Skell, the fact is that you don't know what you are talking about. There is no historical or statistical data to back up your assertion that stricter gun laws result in lower levels of gun violence and gun-related accidents. There is ample evidence to prove the exact opposite. There is also evidence to prove that more liberal gun laws result in significant decreases in crime rates across the board.

"Getting guns off the street" doesn't make people safer or any other stupidity like that. It makes CRIMINALS safer to commit violent crimes. And it creates a black market in illegal guns that are then owned by people who just want to protect themselves from ciminals.

If the "war on drugs" is stupid because it creates the very market in illegal drugs that it is supposed to be stopping, then eliminating gun rights is just as stupid. More so, since the right to bear arms is Constitutionally guaranteed, where the right to recreational drugs is not.

Elliot

Thank you, Elliot.
You said all the things I would have said!
This salvo was well placed and appropriate!

I thought that would be your response.
Obviously what the US is doing doesn't work. Give me my country any day. As far away from you gun mad people as possible!

Statistics and "Gun Control"

You should join this organisation and spit out that sh1t!!

****EDIT**** Remove word "hicks" and replaced with "people".

Skell hicks is a bad word. Stop using it. Rednecks isn't very nice either.

Sorry! Gun wielding maniacs??

El you so cleverly regurgitate all this information as you always do with your biased spin on it and accuse others of not having data or evidence to back it up. And then when you are pressed to do so you provide web sites from biased organisation similar to that which I have posted above.

Just because you regurgitate facts from website that you think are right because they agree with you doesn't mean they are right.

You have children being killed every day because of gun violence. Surely you don't need me to provide facts of that? Yet still you think that there is no issue. You all do! We may be a much smaller country in population but in my memory we have never had a child gunned down at school. NEVER!! We had the Port Arthur massacre which subsequently lead to change in gun laws in this country. Since then we have had a decrease in gun violence! And we citizens aren't so paranoid that we feel violated because we don't have the opportunity to overthrow Bush's little lap dog Howard and his government.

I'm glad my kids will go to school in my country. Even gladder they won't ever set foot in one in yours!

As Kahan said "Americans see guns not through a lens of 20/20 facts but through an elaborate stained-glass window. Are you a big proponent of authority? If so, you probably see guns as a way to make the world safer — as a form of protection against evil deviants. Same goes for people whose identity is rooted in self-sufficiency. You see guns as a form of independence. So gun-control laws will not fix the problem, as far as you're concerned."

Simply, I and many many millions of other in the world don't see it like you do. But of course we are wrong!

I look forward to your next piece of diatribe!

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Originally Posted by Skell

El you so cleverly regurgitate all this information as you always do with your biased spin on it and accuse others of not having data or evidence to back it up. And then when you are pressed to do so you provide web sites from biased organisation similar to that which i have posted above.

Just because you regurgitate facts from website that you think are right because they agree with you doesnt mean they are right.

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So what makes you so absolutely positive that the pro-gun position is "spun" and yours is just pure fact?

The site I provided (if memory serves) provides actual DoJ data that doesn't support your conclusions.

YOU are biased spin, skell! If you don't agree with our constitution, DON'T!

I have never personally seen anyone attack your country's laws or liberal views, yet you still have your own internal issues. Do you now deny that? If you want to change they way you think about America, and if you want to change the way the world thinks about America, and our ways of thinking, you'd better come up with a different theme.

One simple fact is that the United States efforts, beyond our borders, has cost the American taxpayers tons of money! Most of which we would never ask back! But that depends upon the recipeint! Please read some of this: International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) - Home English

I didn't write this. The World community did!
Or try here:
UN Security Council: Latest News

Haiti, Sudan, Myanmar, Nepal. Have any of these given ANY support to the U.S.?
Don't try! It hasn't happened and it won't happen.

So next time, when another crisis blows out the evening news, YOU foot the bill and send some
Help to Jebel Zubair, only for example. People were literally pushed into the surrounding waters.
Was there any support there from you or your country? Did you ever hear of it?
Probably not. Too busy not paying any further attention to the slight less worldy matters!

Bash the U.S. any chance you get.

Major fires are burning in the southwest US... Are you and your joey's going to care? Or send a couple of million to help with OUR crisis? I thought not!

But, despite that, when the chips are down, who calls whom?

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Originally Posted by CaptainRich

YOU are biased spin, skell! If you don't agree with our constitution, DON'T!

I have never personally seen anyone attack your country's laws or liberal views, yet you still have your own internal issues. Do you now deny that? If you want to change they way you think about America, and if you want to change the way the world thinks about America, and our ways of thinking, you'd better come up with a different theme.

One simple fact is that the United States efforts, beyond our borders, has cost the American taxpayers tons of money! Most of which we would never ask back! But that depends upon the recipeint!! Please read some of this: International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) - Home English

I didn't write this. The World community did!!
Or try here:
UN Security Council: Latest News

Haiti, Sudan, Myanmar, Nepal. Have any of these given ANY support to the U.S.??
Don't try! It hasn't happened and it won't happen.

So next time, when another crisis blows out the evening news, YOU foot the bill and send some
help to Jebel Zubair, only for example. People were literaly pushed into the surrounding waters.
Was there any support there from you or your country? Did you ever hear of it?
Probably not. Too busy not paying any further attention to the slight less worldy matters!

Bash the U.S. any chance you get.

Major fires are burning in the southwest US... Are you and your joey's gonna care? Or send a couple of million to help with OUR crisis?? I thought not!!

But, despite that, when the chips are down, who calls whom?

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We have our own fires to fight Captain. Believe it or not we are experiencing the worst drought on record and bush fires down under here completely destroy many lives each year. But you wouldn't know that because you aren't spoon fed it through your news networks. The big difference is Captain I know about what goes on over there. We see it on the news and feel the grief. We know what its like. I'm sorry for your fires but please spare me the lecture on what world saviors you guys are.

Guess what Captain. Im a volunteer fire fighter. If I weren't so busy fighting fires in my own backyard id love to come help!

What crisis have you helped us with Captain??

I didn't attack your constitution. I questioned it. I questioned that its working effectively when I see kids being shot every day in their learning environment. Sorry if you take offense to that Captain.

And for the record I'm not anti american. Not at all. I get disheartened when I see the arrogance of many of you. You fail to see anything wrong. Anyone who is critical is anti american. Its paranoia and fear at work. You are a scared and paranoid country and anyone who questions anything to do with you is labelled anti american. Just because its in your constitution doesn't make it right.

You claim that because I don't have the rights to bear arms that I have no freedom. Am I to say that means you are attacking my country and its laws?? By your standards I should.

Well, I can't speak for every American but only for me, I am a butthole. I love guns and I love intensly savage wars, bombing, death and destruction. I love the smell of napalm in the morning. I adore smoke waifing through the trees of a foreign land. I love watching those old WWII films of Japs on the wrong end of a flame thrower. When General George Patton is on the screen, I stand and salute. I really don't give a big harry rats as if you like it or not.

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Originally Posted by kindj

So what makes you so absolutely positive that the pro-gun position is "spun" and yours is just pure fact?

The site I provided (if memory serves) provides actual DoJ data that doesn't support your conclusions.

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Im not positive its pure fact just as I won't accept your facts as pure and gospel.

What I am happy to base it on is that here in Australia we don't have the same problems you do. Ok, we are a lot smaller population. Im not a fool (I know most will argue that) I realise that it is hard to compare. But as I have stated I see everyday on our news gun slayings in america. Kids, EVERYDAY being shot dead. I for the life of me can not remember one shooting at a school in Australia. Not one. Google it and prove me wrong but it won't have happened often.

Lets also take the UK for example. Elliot brought them up. We get British news everyday. I read british media like I read US media. Again I don't see any where near the rate of gun violence in the UK as I do in the US. Not even close.

If you accept that kids being killed at school regularly is just part and parcel of your citizens having the right to bear arms and anything less is unconstitutional than that's fine. You can have that. I find it sad that you believe that but again its different cultures. As my quote in a previous post states it is culturally ingrained into you. Nothing will change your mind. I suppose like nothing will change my mind that everyone owning a gun makes it a safer place. That just doesn't stack up with me. But I don't live in fear like many on here have admitted previously when I have raised this issue on other boards.

Most people argue that they need a gun to stop the bad guys before they get to them. They are scared and live in fear and a gun protects them against that. The rest of the people try and convince me that guns are needed to overthrow the government if need be. Again, I find it somewhat warped but I don't live in a country where that has been instilled in me since birth.

So go and attack my way of life. That's fine! Ill cop it on the chin. Im not defensive and thin skinned like you guys! I don't take criticism of my country as an attack. I accept it but don't have to agree.

Bring up the issue of aborigines and ill most probably agree with you. Then ill discuss your Native Americans and their oppression and you'll accuse me of being anti american, anti bush and any other anti I might be!

It's a trend on these boards. It's a chance for you Bush followers to project your propaganda and fear mongering to anyone who cares to disagree. You gang up and put spins on arguments citing sources that you take as gospel. Both sides of the argument can do that! Its easy. But as soon as your arguments are questioned I am anti american.

Go figure!

Gun control, murder , crime are way to complex for simple answers:

A Case for Gun Control

"3. Stiffer sentences for gun crimes. This has been the position of the NRA for quite some time, and it is certainly one with which I agree.

4. Gun education. Many guns are involved in accidents that could easily have been prevented by a little care or forethought. Perhaps gun purchasers should be required to take lessons in gun safety, at the purchaser's expense. Again, the NRA has long been a proponent of gun education."

Notice that the NRA is in agreement with some of these.


England and Wales top crime league | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited


Gun control does not address causality - what is causing crime?
Illegal drugs, gangs, poverty, family breakdown, violent media, lack of parental responsibility, poulation density, poor academic achievement..

Banning guns will not address these issues.


Sorry NSG for going off topic.

But I agree with ETW on post #16 except, I'd go for the

Americans For Fair Taxation: FairTax.org






Grace and Peace

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Originally Posted by magprob

Well, I can't speak for every American but only for me, I am a butthole. I love guns and I love intensly savage wars, bombing, death and destruction. I love the smell of napalm in the morning. I adore smoke waifing thru the trees of a foriegn land. I love watching those old WWII films of Japs on the wrong end of a flame thrower. When General George Patton is on the screen, I stand and salute. I really don't give a big harry rats as if you like it or not.

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Im cool with that. I don't mind it either. I like your honesty though mag. Its refreshing. At least you don't try to hide behind a lot of crap regurgitated from right wing web pages and articles. You just say it how it is. Maybe the rest of these guys could take a leaf from your book.

And I don't really give a dogs turd if you think I'm a socialist sissy either. Im not but its no skin off my nose. Ive been called worse!

I got in trouble for using the word redneck before but perhaps you won't mid if I use it here. Your brutal honesty means that you will no doubt appreciate what you are, and that's a redneck! But I'm good with that. We need you guys to make it interesting!

Captain please tell me something that is occurring in Australia as we speak that you have seen on your news? Don't tell me about what is going on in your country. I''m not a narrow minded fool. We get your news. Too much of it. Frankly I don't care too much at the moment for your major fires in California. Why should I? We have major fires burning here.

You know nothing of my country and its current affairs and nor should you.

What do you do for us Captain that I should be forever in your debt? Please enlighten me!

I am a red neck and proud of it. I have more street smarts than book learning and I know one thing for certain. When someone hits you, you hit them back... only harder. You knock them on their as and if they get up, you do it again. Next time... probably won't be a next time cause now you got respect.

Mag, you sounds like my old man and exactly how I will be when I'm a father.

I was taught to defend myself. Stick up for myself. When I'm hit I don't walk away. I hit back.
But I never go looking for a fight. I'm not a mug who shoves his chin out to be hit.

What argument are you trying to make? Any? Or are you just giving us a good life lesson?

I never go looking for a fight but I am more than willing to particapate. I would much rather have my gun and not need it than need it and not have it. Not being an American, you really can't make a call on that one way or another. This place is huge. There are people from all over the world here. There are some flat crazy bastards running the streets dude. I ain't giving up my gun. That's what I'm saying.
If you are happy with your government telling you that you cannot be trusted with a gun, then fine. I am very happy that your country is crime free. But, there is much more truth than poetry to the saying that when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. That's just the way it is here in America. I can go out back to my shop, and with materials I get from the internet, build a gun in three evenings that will rip you a new A-hole.

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Originally Posted by magprob

I never go looking for a fight but I am more than willing to particapate. I would much rather have my gun and not need it than need it and not have it. Not being an American, you really can't make a call on that one way or another. This place is huge. There are people from all over the world here. There are some flat crazy bastards running the streets dude. I ain't givin up my gun. That's what I'm sayin.
If you are happy with your government telling you that you cannot be trusted with a gun, then fine. I am very happy that your country is crime free. But, there is much more truth than poetry to the saying that when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. That's just the way it is here in America. I can go out back to my shop, and with materials I get from the internet, build a gun in three evenings that will rip you a new A-hole.

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Ill agree. It's a cultural thing. Neither way is perfect so we'll just all agree that we are happy with what we have in our respective countries.

My country isn't crime free. But I certainly don't feel the need to own a gun to protect myself. Not even close!

And that is fine Skell. I respect your lifestyle and beliefs. My remark about the Socialistic Sissy... whatever I said was not a personal attack. You know that. It was to show the contrast of beliefs and how you will never change most rednecks minds! :)