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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

Frankly, it's you who don't have your facts straight.

I don't disagree with you when you talk about the poor. They're not who I'm talking about. The poor are covered by Medicaid - a damn good plan, I might add. Nope, it's the WORKING poor, who are the subject of my post, and they don't have ANY plan.

IF they happen to have a savings account, or a house, or make more than it takes to support your dog, they aren't eligible for Medicaid. They have to divest themselves of ALL their property and become paupers in order to qualify for the healthcare YOU'RE talking about.

The working poor are estimated to be 40 to 50 million people. I'm one of them. I make a GOOD living and I HAVE assets, yet health insurance for me would cost more than my rent, and I live in a nice house in an expensive city. Fortunately, I'm healthy.

I maintain that if I come down with cancer, I'll have to go broke in order to be taken care of. Frankly, I'd rather leave an estate. Hell of a choice your wonderful system requires of me.

excon

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Are you saying that if you went to the hospital today with, say, a stomach virus, you wouldn't e able to see a doctor because you are "working poor"? That you wouldn't be examined by a skilled professional? That he wouldn't proscribe something for you? That he wouldn't give you at least a few days' worth of samples of the drug if you asked? That, if you needed to be admitted you wouldn't get the care you needed? Is that what you are intimating? Because if it is, then I say you are wrong.

Please be correct in your words, excon. Not being able to afford health insurance is different from not being able to get health care when you need it. And if you are saying that there are 50-million people in the USA who have no access to health care when they need it, I say prove it.

You keep talking about Medicare vs. affordible health insurance, but that is different from health CARE. Health Insurance is talking about finance. Health care is about medical care.

Just so you know, I happen to be in agreement with you regarding the affordability of health INSURANCE. The cost is way too high. But that is not the same thing as health care. Affordability of health insurance and accessibility to health care are two different animals.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by Emland

excon, I work for a company that hires the "working poor." They are mostly college students in their early twenties. Anyone working more than 30 hours a week and is here more than 6 months is eligible for the insurance. The company pays 60 %. For young single people, it is cheap.

95% of them don't take advantage of the option (nor the retirement plan.) Their excuse is that they can't afford it. More than half of the group smokes. Most of them have either cable or Direct TV or internet service. Almost every one of them eats lunch out every day. They can afford all that, but not $10 a week to protect their health.

Also, many people with insurance plans have run into instances where congenital defects are considered "pre-existing" and therefore not covered.

It really comes down to your priorities. If my child needed surgery, but I didn't have the insurance, I would work 3 jobs, mortgage my house and beg from family and friends to see to it that he got the proper medical care.

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I find it amazing that people so often base their conclusions on personal experience. Never mind the seniors, and people with disabilities who apparently your employer does not employ.

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Originally Posted by Emland

It really comes down to your priorities. If my child needed surgery, but I didn't have the insurance, I would work 3 jobs, mortgage my house and beg from family and friends to see to it that he got the proper medical care.

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While it isn't always this simple in all cases, sometimes it should be. Emland, id kiss you for this quote if your hubby and my wife didn't mind, and then there's the dirty moniter screen...

I have seen a relatives kids go without health insurance, largely in part, because of dumb financial decisions. They were happy to take on a mortgage twice as big as the needed cause it was a dream house... they were able somehow to get that 3000 pool table... etc... but their kids didn't have coverage. Drove me MAD. I had to loan them money on a couple of occasions because they needed care and the cost of the visit was too high... going to pop a vein just thinking about it.

I've lived in a poorer area growing up... I know some people who have had some terrible things happen, and I do not, under any circumstances, take lightly the financial ruin that can come from unexpected things that happen in life. Sometimes just a few setbacks can really make things get ugly... but... there's also a point where you'd better be doing all you can do, or you are just wasting air...

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Originally Posted by Emland

It really comes down to your priorities.

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Hello Em:

I don't disagree with your analysis and I'm not complaining. I have a feeling, however, that you don't quite understand the numbers I'm talking about. Yes, it is priorities. And, I choose to eat instead of buy insurance. It would cost me more than $1,500 per month for health insurance, and I'm healthy. Those big numbers are due to my age. I'll be eligible for medicare in 10 months. NO, I am not going to spend $15,000 for 10 months, even if I could afford it.

The only part of your post that I might disagree with is your definition of the working poor. I think you need to expand your universe. There MILLIONS of people like me.

All this goes to belie the original post of the Wolverine who would have you believe that things are all hunky dory in the healthcare world.

excon

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emland, id kiss you for this quote if your hubby and my wife didn't mind, and then there's the dirty moniter screen...

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I think Emland is falttered.:D

excon, perhaps I'm missing something because I don't know you personally, but if you are a member of the "working poor" doesn't that imply you work? Doesn't your employer offer coverage? Even if you are self-employed you can get coverage (pre-existing conditions and all).

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't follow.

As far as I know,The United States is the only industrialized democracy that allows its citizens to go entirely without health care for lack of funds or to be bankrupted by medical bills.
It seems that you can't really find a perfect way by looking into within the U.S. U can try to look at how other nations have managed to create solutions, what obstacles they faced in doing so, and how they handle all the needs. In other words, your difficulties may not be as unique as you think, but you don't know without learning about other nations' experience.
Sounds like I am off topic, but think about it americans.
Take a look at Sweden, Australia,China, and Japan's health care systems please...

After working over 20 years in management and HR, I truly believe most of the working poor are the working poor because they make poor choices.

Yes, there are those that fall though the cracks. We're talking about the US, not Utopia. My mom was left high and dry when my dad walked out on her at 57 years old. She had to work for the first time in her life outside the home. She got a crappy job that paid diddly, but offered health benefits.

I do believe reform is needed in our health industry. Perhaps some protection for the doctor's from litigation, so they don't have to order every test under the sun to protect themselves.

And, I am not against public health care in the US as long as they don't make it illegal to have private insurance like they do in Canada.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Even if you are self-employed you can get coverage (pre-existing conditions and all). I just don't follow.

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Hello again jillian:

I responded too quickly. Yes, I can get coverage - very expensive coverage (see above). The insurers I spoke to are more than happy to take my money.

Again, the rhetoric of the right doesn't make a lot of sense when presented with real life numbers.

excon

PS> I also suspect that NONE of you are self employed.

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Originally Posted by excon

The working poor are estimated to be 40 to 50 million people. I'm one of them. I make a GOOD living and I HAVE assets, yet health insurance for me would cost more than my rent, and I live in a nice house in an expensive city. Fortunately, I'm healthy.

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This discussion has been on the board before about people that say that health insurance is too expensive. If your health insurance is more than your rent you are looking in the wrong place for it even if you were told you were uninsurable before. Part of the problem facing america today about health insurance is that the media tells them that they can't afford it. At one point in time I had health insurance for my wife and I for less than $50 a month. Did the insurance suck, by some standards yes I was responsible for the first $5,000 per person in medical costs and after I spent that in a year my insurance would pay the rest but I was insured and most of my assests protected. Based on what you have said you can afford health insurance you just don't want to and that should be my problem because?

America shouldn't be about the government taking money out of my pocket because you don't want to change jobs or live in a not quite so a nice a house.

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Originally Posted by michealb

This discussion has been on the board before about people that say that health insurance is too expensive. If your health insurance is more than your rent you are looking in the wrong place for it even if you were told you were uninsurable before. Part of the problem facing america today about health insurance is that the media tells them that they can't afford it. At one point in time I had health insurance for my wife and I for less than $50 a month. Did the insurance suck, by some standards yes I was responsible for the first $5,000 per person in medical costs and after I spent that in a year my insurance would pay the rest but I was insured and most of my assests protected. Based on what you have said you can afford health insurance you just don't want to and that should be my problem because?

America shouldn't be about the government taking money out of my pocket because you don't want to change jobs or live in a not quite so a nice a house.

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You have a very obtuse idea of health coverage….you pay the first 5 grand each year per person and then your insurance kicks in. Hell, that is pure robbery by the insurance company and you’re foolish enough to gamble that you will ever receive a dollars worth of coverage.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again jillian:

I responded too quickly. Yes, I can get coverage - very expensive coverage (see above). The insurers I spoke to are more than happy to take my money.

Again, the rhetoric of the right doesn't make a lot of sense when presented with real life numbers.

excon

PS> I also suspect that NONE of you are self employed.

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I saw your post about how much it would cost for you to get coverage, and it sounds outrageous. I guess I'm trying to figure out WHY it's so high for you. There are loopholes in the system, there's lousy coverage (which is better than nothing), so I guess that's what I have trouble understanding.

I'm not self employed but I've mostly worked for small businesses, and many of my family members work for small businesses. They've (the employer) decided to join with other small business owners to form a group plan for themselves and their employees in order to get reduced rates. Now maybe that's not an option for you for some reason, but maybe it is.

Of course I could also tell you if you can't afford health coverage you just aren't working hard enough, but that would be a mean and nasty thing to say! :D Kidding, of course!

Health Insurance was originally designed to prevent you from losing your assets. It kicked in to cover major medical issues after a deductible was met.

Now it pays if you have a pimple on your buttocks. HMOs really need to be repaired. In some cases they practice medicine without a license (IMO) and I think are the reason our health care costs have gone up so high (also MO).

I've wandered away from the original question haven't I?

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

Frankly, it's you who don't have your facts straight.

I don't disagree with you when you talk about the poor. They're not who I'm talking about. The poor are covered by Medicaid - a damn good plan, I might add. Nope, it's the WORKING poor, who are the subject of my post, and they don't have ANY plan.

IF they happen to have a savings account, or a house, or make more than it takes to support your dog, they aren't eligible for Medicaid. They have to divest themselves of ALL their property and become paupers in order to qualify for the healthcare YOU'RE talking about.

The working poor are estimated to be 40 to 50 million people. I'm one of them. I make a GOOD living and I HAVE assets, yet health insurance for me would cost more than my rent, and I live in a nice house in an expensive city. Fortunately, I'm healthy.

I maintain that if I come down with cancer, I'll have to go broke in order to be taken care of. Frankly, I'd rather leave an estate. Hell of a choice your wonderful system requires of me.

excon

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I agree 110%. This is the inherent that most people cannot see or are willing to acknowledge!

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

You have a very obtuse idea of health coverage….you pay the first 5 grand each year per person and then your insurance kicks in. Hell, that is pure robbery by the insurance company and you’re foolish enough to gamble that you will ever receive a dollars worth of coverage.

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I didn't receive a dollars worth of coverage, I didn't expect too which is why I got such bad insurance. I did it cause it did what it needed to do at the time protect my assests and keep me from having to use a hand out. If the worst had happened the majority of my assests were covered. I felt with my current assests and future assests it was worth the gamble. You might have made a different choice and could have lost everything or you could have lost nothing, I choose to definitely loose 150 dollars over 3 months and maybe loose 5 grand. I felt I made the right decision.

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excon agrees: Here's a greenie, but no my Dear, I can't afford $1,500 a month for insurance.

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So find another job, excon, where you can afford the health insurance. Or don't bother. THat's your choice. That's the beauty of the system we live in. You have choices. Under a government-controlled system, you wouldn't.

But no matte what your choice is, why should I have to pay for you choice? If you don't want or can't afford to pay for health insurance, and don't want or can't afford to pay out of pocket for health care, and you choose not to get a better job where health coverage costs less, why is that MY problem. Or for that matter, why is it the government's problem.

Not a very good libertarian position, excon, to say that government should be fixing your health insurance problems or that everyone else has to pay to cover your health care costs. I'm beginning to think you aren't a libertarian at all, just a garden variety liberal. The only libertarian positions you seem take are with regard to legalization of drugs and gun control. The rest of your positions are straight out of the liberal playbook. If you were a real libertarian, you would find the idea of other people or the government paying for your costs to be an anthema to you. Liberals are the ones who believe in wealth distribution and big government.

Elliot

No one disputes the diagnosis: American health care is in lousy shape. As a practicing physician for more than 30 years, I find the pervasiveness of managed care very troubling.

The problems with our health care system are not the result of too little government intervention, but rather too much. Contrary to the claims of many advocates of increased government regulation of health care, rising costs and red tape do not represent market failure. Rather, they represent the failure of government policies that have destroyed the health care market.

It's time to rethink the whole system of HMOs and managed care. This entire unnecessary level of corporatism rakes off profits and worsens the quality of care. But HMOs did not arise in the free market; they are creatures of government interference in health care dating to the 1970s. These non-market institutions have gained control over medical care through collusion between organized medicine, politicians, and drug companies, in an effort to move America toward “free” universal health care.
One big problem arises from the 1974 ERISA law, which grants tax benefits to employers for providing health care, while not allowing similar incentives for individuals. This results in the illogical coupling between employment and health insurance. As such, government removed the market incentive for health insurance companies to cater to the actual health-care consumer. As a greater amount of government and corporate money has been used to pay medical bills, costs have risen artificially out of the range of most individuals.

Only true competition assures that the consumer gets the best deal at the best price possible by putting pressure on the providers. Patients are better served by having options and choices, not new federal bureaucracies and limitations on legal remedies. Such choices and options will arrive only when we unravel the HMO web rooted in old laws, and change the tax code to allow individual Americans to fully deduct all healthcare costs from their taxes, as employers can.

As government bureaucracy continues to give preferences and protections to HMOs and trial lawyers, it will be the patients who lose, despite the glowing rhetoric from the special interests in Washington. Patients will pay ever rising prices and receive declining care while doctors continue to leave the profession in droves.

September 26, 2006

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

But no matte what your choice is, why should I have to pay for you choice?

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Hello again, El:

I understand right wingers have trouble following along, so let me help.

YOU said everybody in this country is doing fine in terms of health care. I said they weren't, and used MYSELF as an example.

Nowhere did I complain about it, and nowhere did I say that YOU should pay for my coverage. This rant is for you too, michealb.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

Frankly, it's you who don't have your facts straight.

I don't disagree with you when you talk about the poor. They're not who I'm talking about. The poor are covered by Medicaid - a damn good plan, I might add. Nope, it's the WORKING poor, who are the subject of my post, and they don't have ANY plan.

IF they happen to have a savings account, or a house, or make more than it takes to support your dog, they aren't eligible for Medicaid. They have to divest themselves of ALL their property and become paupers in order to qualify for the healthcare YOU'RE talking about.

The working poor are estimated to be 40 to 50 million people. I'm one of them. I make a GOOD living and I HAVE assets, yet health insurance for me would cost more than my rent, and I live in a nice house in an expensive city. Fortunately, I'm healthy.

I maintain that if I come down with cancer, I'll have to go broke in order to be taken care of. Frankly, I'd rather leave an estate. Hell of a choice your wonderful system requires of me.

excon

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Wouldn't you agree with Tom's Ron Paul Letter.

The reason why healthcare / insurance is so costly is due to gov't /regulatory interference.

I've been self employed. Had catastrophic coverage, $3000 per year deductible, $500 per month for family of 5. - Not cheap - but a plan. Also GW's pushing for HSAs helped sock away the 3000 pre tax.

Why is healthcare / insurance so expensive.
- insurance co / hmo - have to stay solvent to offer a product. Of course as middleman they add to the price.
- this entitlement attitude that healthcare should be free
- ? Does auto insurance purchase one's car
- ? Does home insurance purchase one's home
- ? Does insurance pay for college?
Then why does a third party have to pay for one's healthcare?

- there is no "free market" in healthcare. Medicare sets the rate, Doctor's cannot, legally, accept less than medicare rates from someone who pays directly out of pocket - that is considered fraud. Insurance companies then follow suit with their payment schedules.


For example my wife had an echocardiogram
No insurance cost $1200
Insurance reimbursement [ what they willl pay ] around $900
Medicare reimbursement $ 800
Medicaid reimbursement $ 300
These are approximate numbers from several years ago - I know because I'm on the inside.
Outrageous... right?

- reimbursement determines acess. Do you think a hospital/ doctor is going to want to see an insured or a medicaid patient - look at the numbers above.

If reimbursement is below the cost of business they won't accept or they will limit the amount of medicaid. So in effect the Medicaid program, because of their generally lower reimbursement rates, limits healthcare acess. Call around and see if your local orthopedic or ent doctor accepts medicaid.

The cost of business:
- malpractice
- rent
- staffing and benefits
- supplies
- school loans etc...

- education - funny how there isn't a huge out cry for "free college" because it is a 'right'
In fact college tuition has risen as fast if not faster than the rise in healthcare.
4 years college
4 years medical school
At least 3 years residency
Life begins at 28-30 at the youngest, usually with mortgage size school loan payments.

These are just some factors in why health insurance is unaffordable.

Will a true free market work - no set rates, basic professional standards and certification.
I believe yes.

One example
Walmart $4 per medication per 30 day supply for generic drugs [ the ones that have been on the market for > 7-10 years if not more and proven track records ]. Othe pharmacies in my area have similar programs too compete with this.

Compare this with the red tape and cost of Medicare part D, or a higher price per month for the same generics through the VA system if the medication is not service related or if one is above an income level.



As you espouse - more government is not the answer.






Grace and Peace

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Originally Posted by nicespringgirl

Most places say 40-50 million Americans have no health care. But the actual truth is, every American has no health care. We do not have a health care system in the US. What we have is a Symptoms and Disease Care System. There is absolutely no system of helping people become healthy.

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I agree, but with one disclaimer.

Preventative healthcare is a personal responsibility, not your doctor's or the insurance company's or the government's.


There is internet acess to preventative healthcare information
American Cancer Society
Health Care: U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF) Subdirectory Page
For example


It is personal resposibilty to eat healthy, keep up with screening tests, not smoke, wear seatbelts, lose weight if your overweight etc...




Grace and Peace