I would agree with DC on this one, Tom. It isn't talked about very often, but Abraham was not just a sheepherder and wanderer. He was a master general and an accomplished warrior as well.

In fact, many Israelite leaders were accomplished warriors. Moses was a general in the Egyptian army before being forced into hiding and then becoming the leader of the Israelites. He led the Israelites to battle against several different enemies, including the Amalekites, the Amonites, the Moabites, etc. Joshua was a war-leader that began the reconquest of the Land of Israel. Samson killed thousands of Philistines before being blinded... and even blind he managed to kill thousands more. King Saul and King David were warriors of great renown. Matisyahu the Son of Jochanan and Judah Maccabbe from the story of Channukah were warriors. Rabbi Akiva was a soldier, as were several others in the Tanaic period.

If Christianity's roots are with the Jews, then they too had warriors as leaders and progenitors, just as much as the Muslims.

The difference is that our religions grew up. Islam still has not.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

I disagree with your analysis of history. I believe that the Inquisitions were not aberrations of Christianity, I believe that they were the norm for that period of that religion's development. Christianity persecuted its own sects almost as much as it persecuted other religious groups. And that was simply the nature of that religion at that time. It wasn't an aberration.

But over the centuries, the child that was Christianity grew up and matured into a relatively peaceful adult. There are indeed some aberrations that take place today, but the fact that those aberrations are not supported by the clergy or the lay leadership of the Church is what proves them to be aberrations.

Islam is now in the same place, in terms of maturity, that Christianity was 1000 years ago. It is persecuting all other religious groups because it is an immature religion that needs to "prove" ---to itself, as much to everyone else--- that it is a force to be reckonned with. The problem is that Islam has not matured as a religion the way Christianity has, and shows no wish to do so. This isn't aberrant behavior by cetain Muslims. There is too much support for terrorism by the religious and lay leadership within the Muslim community for this to be an aberration. This is what Islam is in this time and place. It will be centuries before they are able to mature into something better as a religion. That's not to say that individual Muslims aren't peaceful. I think that as individuals, most Muslims probably are peaceful. But as a religion, they are stuck in the 11th century with the persecutorial tendancies that were common to that period.

There's a lime from Men In Black that I absolutely love that fits this topic.

Jay: "People are smart."

Kay: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. "

That's how I see the Islamic religion today... as individuals, they are good people, and 99.99% of them are peaceful people who just want to get on with their lives as best they can, just like everyone else. But as a group, they are stuck in a cycle of destruction, persecution and death. That cycle will change eventually as Islam matures. But until then, they are a bunch of dumb, panicky dangerous animals. That is simply the way things are for them right now.

The question is whether it is in our power to help them break that cycle and grow up, or do we just have to let them be children and give them a good spanking every time they break the rules until they learn the lesson.

Elliot

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It seems many people are of that opinion, and on the face of it I was inclined to accept it; until I realized that the process of evolution would have to have worked backwards for some thousand years.

Christianity in its infancy was non political and a benign religion. But when Rome adopted it for a State Religion it evolved in just the opposite way in which you describe, it became more and more ruthless and less and less tolerant. Islam on the other had begun religious and political. Muslims do not regard Muhammad as the founder of a new religion, but as the restorer of the original monotheistic faith of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and other prophets. Islamic law does not distinguish between "matters of church" and "matters of state" and that is a problem. The Islamic civilization was one of the most advanced in the world during the middle Ages, but was surpassed by Europe with the economic and military growth of the West. Hmmmm… is it any wonder they were pissed?

DC and Elliot I defer to your knowledge of the origins of Judaism and Christianity .