I think all this problem of health care in the US is very sad and I say that from the perspective of a nation who gets universal health care for a tax surcharge of 1.5% on the higher earners and I also have health insurance because to beat the waiting lists in public hospitals you have to. The key to the system is controlling and moderating doctors fees and the cost of pharmacy. There is some disincentive but doctors are still among the highest earners so they don't really lose out and no one is placed in a situation of not being able to afford care and having to pay extortinate charges up front for care

Hi Shady,

I did not hear that the insurance companies are being so co-operative with the uninsured.. My guess is that they are so freaked out by what has happened to financial institutions and the Auto companies, that they are rushing to present
their case before there is a rushed crisis vote on this again, but in the Senate.
If that happens, it will become law after the Prez signs it.

The problem with private insurance is the premiums and the exclusions for pre-existing conditions. If you are 18 to 35, and not employed by a big company with a good benefit plan, you are being soaked even though you may not use the insurance for any more than a childbirthing or two.
If you are at such a low risk of needing that insurance, people are smart enough to know that paying $5000 or more per year for family coverage is a rip off.
They would rather spend the money on a new vehicle or a trip to Disney World.

When you add to that, today's greatly reduced chances of landing a job that pays more than $30K a year, it is easy to see why so many do not bother with insurance unless they know that their health is going to fail soon.

A lot of people are fearful about government insurance because of the contract with
GE to handle the electronic record-keeping ( remember the last stimulus that was rushed through without being read?) That included $6 Billion to be used to set up the Electronic record system. (Nice of GE to be so co-operative)
Why is this feared? Simple.. If the Socialized Medicine should fail, will those
records end up in the hands of Private Insurance companies so that they can deny
coverage to bad risks?
Will the government safeguard that information, or will they sell it to the highest bidders anyway, even if they do maintain Socialized Medicine?

Will the government use the record system to police the bad habits of the obese,
the diabetic, the frequently injured, the smokers, ot just plain junk food consumption?
You say "how could this happen?" Simple... You compare the family's grocery
buying habits with their use of the medical system.
(Too many twinkies may spell early heart attacks.)
Will the purchase of ammunition link to death by hunting? Will hunting be
outlawed if it harms too many?




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Quote:

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Originally Posted by lshadylady

I am not an expert. Are we about to see if Capitalism and Socialism can co-exist? Obahma's latest healthcare request is so not based on reality that I had hopes it would not pass. But even on these pages, there are ad's for people to come to the Health Care Insurance Companies for your free health care insurance. They are educating the public. The cost of supplemental insurance is $0 to $40 a month. The masses will pile on to them wanting and trusting that they are not paying with their lifestyle. but only $40 a month.

But what is unreal is they want to cut Medicare expenses to help pay for this insurance. The one thing that provides and gives many, many people healthcare that could not afford it otherwise. How can that work?

If the Insurance companies did not already know that putting this proposal to the vote was just a show, that it might not pass, would they spend the advertising money like this?

That's two questions . if that is not allowed leave out the Medicare statement, please.

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[QUOTE=thePard;1849838]Hi Shady,

I did not hear that the insurance companies are being so co-operative with the uninsured.. My guess is that they are so freaked out by what has happened to financial institutions and the Auto companies, that they are rushing to present
Their case before there is a rushed crisis vote on this again, but in the Senate.
If that happens, it will become law after the Prez signs it.

The problem with private insurance is the premiums and the exclusions for pre-existing conditions. If you are 18 to 35, and not employed by a big company with a good benefit plan, you are being soaked even though you may not use the insurance for any more than a childbirthing or two.
If you are at such a low risk of needing that insurance, people are smart enough to know that paying $5000 or more per year for family coverage is a rip off.
They would rather spend the money on a new vehicle or a trip to Disney World.

When you add to that, today's greatly reduced chances of landing a job that pays more than $30K a year, it is easy to see why so many do not bother with insurance unless they know that their health is going to fail soon.

A lot of people are fearful about government insurance because of the contract with
GE to handle the electronic record-keeping ( remember the last stimulus that was rushed through without being read?) That included $6 Billion to be used to set up the Electronic record system. (Nice of GE to be so co-operative)
Why is this feared? Simple.. If the Socialized Medicine should fail, will those
Records end up in the hands of Private Insurance companies so that they can deny
Coverage to bad risks?
Will the government safeguard that information, or will they sell it to the highest bidders anyway, even if they do maintain Socialized Medicine?

Will the government use the record system to police the bad habits of the obese,
The diabetic, the frequently injured, the smokers, ot just plain junk food consumption?
You say "how could this happen?" Simple... You compare the family's grocery
Buying habits with their use of the medical system.
(Too many twinkies may spell early heart attacks.)
Will the purchase of ammunition link to death by hunting? Will hunting be
Outlawed if it harms too many?

Can I say your post appears very paranoid. To think that the information might be misused is not a good reason for everyone not to get health care. Yes, it is possible but you are talking of a conspiracy on an unprecedented scale.

In the system I live in, there is no overt use of the data to modify patient behaviour, but there might be monitoring to modify physician behaviour, such as observing and curbing overbilling. The reality is there must be trust, trust that the patient will observe the charges made, and query if needed, and trust that the physician is generally honest and not interested in gaming the system, you also have to trust the government, trust that they generally do want the best possible care to be provided. Don't give up the possibility of improvement for millions because you don't trust the existing system. Take the profit incentive out of medicine and you will get a better outcome.

To me there is a big difference between socialism and building roads with taxpayer money for the good of all. Government in either type society must tax in order to provide those services which are for the benefit of and are necessary to provide freedom and security for all. Roads, police, fire departments,schools,and a national defense.
In my view the only place socialism and capitalism co-exist is in the animal kingdom. Take a pride of lions for example. They are socialists in that each is required to perform a service for the pride, hunting, protecting, bearing and caring for offspring. There's the socialist part. In return the pride feeds all member and protects all members. The capitalist part is the strongest amongst the pride, the ones that kill the prey or fend off the enemy get to eat first and best. If a member is weak the pride will make an effort to protect it to a point, but when it becomes certain that member will never be able to contribute its required services it is cast out or left behind to fend for itself and is ultimately killed. Today,in the USA it seems to me we have abandoned that mentality to the point where we have begun to encourage weakness, to reward weakness. We have taught the weak in society to breed more weakness. By weakness I mean an inability or unwillingness to contribute to the group a service. Because we are human we abhore the concept of leaving the weak to fend for themselves. If a pride of lions did that eventually the pride would be destroyed and since we can't seem to break the cycle of encouraging and rewarding weakness it seems to me our society will also be destroyed.

I think everyone is going about this the wrong way. If socialism and capitalism were to coexist they would have to operate independent of each other. When the state controls private industry and private industry controls the state, you have neither capitalism nor socialism you have corporatism. For this coexisting idea to work you have have to have socialism that is made up of a socialized sector, a public,cooperative sector which is free from private business all together. Along side the socialized sector you would need a free market that is free from control from the state. Granted, socialists might be terrified of the completely free market and capitalists might be terrified of the totally state owned socialized sector, but this is the only way I see true socialism coexisting with true capitalism.

They can coexist in a single, the theory is called Social-Capitalism, its an idea where the working and middle class rely on government owned infrastructure (public housing, public education) and programs (welfare, socialized health care, state union) to help them find work and provide housing, as well as effective health and educational system. The "Capitalist" class will profit off the government protected working class.

Example: The working class work in socialized, or government owned, industrial complexes. That produce products for the "Capitalist" class to profit it off.

This theory is so the working class well have their needs satisfied (education, health, housing, employment) and still produce the product demands of the "Capitalist" class. This will in turn lower our need for foreign imports and out sourced labor, making the nation self sufficient economically. As well as increase exports, which will increase national profit