I am embarking a project to remodel a half bath to a full bath on the ground floor of a high ranch. (on slab). After getting a couple estimates on the rough-in plumbing, and seeing that they were more than anticipated, I think I am going to give it a shot. I do most everything….framing, drywall, electrical, etc. and can sweat pipes OK, and recently re-did all of the plumbing in the laundry room, replacing steel with PVC and putting it in the wall. With the help of the pros on this site, I figure I’ll have the answers to some questions I have and will be more confident in tackling this project.

I am confident with running the supply lines and also the waste lines, however, I am a little unsure with the venting and also “tying” in the new PVC waste lines to the existing cast iron. To make it easier to follow, I have attached a photo of the existing gutted ½ bath….The 4” cast drain is the waste for the upstairs bath/kitchen sinks, tub, and toilet, and also the existing toilet drain in this half bath (or what was anyway). The 2” galv. Steel pipe is a waste pipe for only the lavatory sink that was here originally, and I guess the vent for everything else.



New bathroom will be twice as big, toilet stays in the same spot, sink is being relocated, and I will add a 32’X 60’ shower.

I had some preliminary questions about doing the demo/waste rough-in:

1.) Should I saw cut the trench on the sides 1st with a circular saw/concrete blade and then just jackhammer away?

2.) I was going to run 2” PVC waste lines (1/4” per foot slope) for the shower & sink. Is this OK do do under the slab, and is there anything I should be aware of like putting something under the pipe or insulating it before I bury and fill the trench w/concrete?

3.) Since the room is gutted, I figured it would be a good opportunity to replace the waste line of the tub upstairs w/PVC and also remove the lend bends from both the upstairs toilet and the existing one (once I jackhammer the slab). A friend of mine did this recently and had to soften the lead with an acetylene torch to remove it and replace w/ a Ferco “donut” type fitting and PVC closet bend. Should I replace these bends since I am doing the work, or will they last at least another 30-40 years?

Sorry this is so “long-winded”….the wife is on my back looking to start this project, and has confidence in me to do this (strange) and I just wanted to see if I could get some answers so I could begin the demo phase.

Thanks

Jon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J Bone

I am embarking a project to remodel a half bath to a full bath on the ground floor of a high ranch. (on slab). After getting a couple estimates on the rough-in plumbing, and seeing that they were more than anticipated, I think I am going to give it a shot. I do most everything….framing, drywall, electrical, etc., and can sweat pipes OK, and recently re-did all of the plumbing in the laundry room, replacing steel with PVC and putting it in the wall. With the help of the pros on this site, I figure I’ll have the answers to some questions I have and will be more confident in tackling this project.

I am confident with running the supply lines and also the waste lines, however, I am a little unsure with the venting and also “tying” in the new PVC waste lines to the existing cast iron. To make it easier to follow, I have attached a photo of the existing gutted ½ bath….The 4” cast drain is the waste for the upstairs bath/kitchen sinks, tub, and toilet, and also the existing toilet drain in this half bath (or what was anyway). The 2” galv. steel pipe is a waste pipe for only the lavatory sink that was here originally, and I guess the vent for everything else.



New bathroom will be twice as big, toilet stays in the same spot, sink is being relocated, and I will add a 32’X 60’ shower.

I had some preliminary questions about doing the demo/waste rough-in:

1.) Should I saw cut the trench on the sides 1st with a circular saw/concrete blade and then just jackhammer away?

2.) I was going to run 2” PVC waste lines (1/4” per foot slope) for the shower & sink. Is this OK do do under the slab, and is there anything I should be aware of like putting something under the pipe or insulating it before I bury and fill the trench w/concrete?

3.) Since the room is gutted, I figured it would be a good opportunity to replace the waste line of the tub upstairs w/PVC and also remove the lend bends from both the upstairs toilet and the existing one (once I jackhammer the slab). A friend of mine did this recently and had to soften the lead with an acetylene torch to remove it and replace w/ a Ferco “donut” type fitting and PVC closet bend. Should I replace these bends since I am doing the work, or will they last at least another 30-40 years?

Sorry this is so “long-winded”….the wife is on my back looking to start this project, and has confidence in me to do this (strange) and I just wanted to see if I could get some answers so I could begin the demo phase.

Thanks

Jon

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Hi Jon,
Let me address your questions as they come.

(1) Should I saw cut the trench on the sides 1st with a circular saw/concrete blade and then just jackhammer away?

Whatever works for you. I just open up the floor with a jackhammer and do the delicate work with a 15 pound sledge hammer.

(2)I was going to run 2” PVC waste lines (1/4” per foot slope) for the shower & sink. Is this OK do do under the slab, and is there anything I should be aware of like putting something under the pipe or insulating it before I bury and fill the trench w/concrete?

2" PVC is fine and if there is a problem with the pitch then 1/8" per foot's acceptable. No support is needed for the pipes, just make sure the trench is packed down and there are no dips. Insulation isn't needed since you will be covering the pipes with dirt and visqueen before pouring the cement patch.

(3)Since the room is gutted, I figured it would be a good opportunity to replace the waste line of the tub upstairs w/PVC and also remove the lend bends from both the upstairs toilet and the existing one (once I jackhammer the slab). A friend of mine did this recently and had to soften the lead with an acetylene torch to remove it and replace w/ a Ferco “donut” type fitting and PVC closet bend. Should I replace these bends since I am doing the work, or will they last at least another 30-40 years?

If you have the opportunity I would replace ALL the lead fittings with PVC. I haven't seen lead fittings for 40 years when I worked on a old house up in Tampa. Lead was used back in the 30's, and we went to cast iron in the 40's.

There will be more questions I'm sure. I can walk you through the lay out and installation if you wish. Good luck on a major undertaking. Tom

Thanks for all the info Tom, it helps out a lot. I’d appreciate it if you’d answer my questions as I have them and as you have time. Just let me know if it gets to be too much and I’ll stop.


The attached photo shows my plan of attack with the waste lines – 2” PVC - one from shower and one from sink and just T them together and then over to 4” cast iron main to tie into.

1) Should I increase to 3” after downstream of the T connection?

The line I drew going up the wall was a continuation of the sink drain, and I intended to run this up through the ceiling and then horizontally through the floor joists in order to tie into the existing 2” steel pipe(see previous post for photo, just to the right of the 4” stack).

2) Can I do this to vent everything? That’s where my confusion lies, in how plumbing should be vented?

I don’t follow how my current plumbing is vented. The two toilets, upstairs tub and sinks all drain into the 4” cast pipe, however, I see only one vent on the roof, which doesn't look like 4” cast, but yet looks bigger than 2” steel, I guess I’ll take a trip into the attic to see what it is.

The 2” steel pipe is only a drain for the sink that was previously here, yet it goes up through the floor.

3) Does everything upstairs like the sink, tub, and toilet tie in to that 2” steel pipe somewhere in the wall for venting purposes?


Thanks

Jon

This looks pretty good to me but Tom is the expert.

If all of your fixtures drain to the same main pipe and they all empty into it without being to far away then what you may have is a stack vent which is a vertical drainage stack that carries water but is also vented at the roof... short horizontal branch lines extending from a vertical stack do not require additional venting and are said to be stack vented.

The picture you drew looks good and I think that the shower line would be considered wet vented in your drawing which is OK from what I have read.

When you fill in the pipes in the foundation use some sand under the pipes... this will make it so that it does not compact over time...

Almost forgot. I don't think a tee is a good idea. Use wyes... that way you can run a snake through the lines to clean the pipes and the water will flow better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J Bone

Thanks for all the info Tom, it helps out a lot. I’d appreciate it if you’d answer my questions as I have them and as you have time. Just let me know if it gets to be too much and I’ll stop.


The attached photo shows my plan of attack with the waste lines – 2” PVC - one from shower and one from sink and just T them together and then over to 4” cast iron main to tie into.

1) Should I increase to 3” after downstream of the T connection?

The line I drew going up the wall was a continuation of the sink drain, and I intended to run this up through the ceiling and then horizontally throught the floor joists in order to tie into the existing 2” steel pipe(see previous post for photo, just to the right of the 4” stack).

2) Can I do this to vent everything? That’s where my confusion lies, in how plumbing should be vented??

I don’t follow how my current plumbing is vented. The two toilets, upstairs tub and sinks all drain into the 4” cast pipe, however, I see only one vent on the roof, which doesn't look like 4” cast, but yet looks bigger than 2” steel, I guess I’ll take a trip into the attic to see what it is.

The 2” steel pipe is only a drain for the sink that was previously here, yet it goes up through the floor.

3) Does everything upstairs like the sink, tub, and toilet tie in to that 2” steel pipe somewhere in the wall for venting purposes?


Thanks

Jon

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Hi Jon, Will this job be inspected?
Starting with #1.
(1) 1) Should I increase to 3” after downstream of the T connection?
The line I drew going up the wall was a continuation of the sink drain, and I intended to run this up through the ceiling and then horizontally through the floor joists in order to tie into the existing 2” steel pipe(see previous post for photo, just to the right of the 4” stack).

No, leave the drain at 2". The vent off the lavatory must extend at least 6" over the flood rim of the highest fixture,(your sink) before you can revent back. You can't tie back to the 2" galvanized untill you get 6" above the highest fixture that drains into that line. If the kitchen sink has been removed or moved to a new vent then your way will work, otherwise it won't. And speaking of that 2" galvanized Iron drain. The basement lavatory,(sink) was installed using a "S"trap which is outlawed by ALL plumbing codes. It should have had its own vent.

(2) Can I do this to vent everything? That’s where my confusion lies, in how plumbing should be vented?
I don’t follow how my current plumbing is vented. The two toilets, upstairs tub and sinks all drain into the 4” cast pipe, however, I see only one vent on the roof, which doesn't look like 4” cast, but yet looks bigger than 2” steel, I guess I’ll take a trip into the attic to see what it is.
The 2” steel pipe is only a drain for the sink that was previously here, yet it goes up through the floor.

How far is it from the shower trap to the lavatory drain tie in. Code gives you 5". Again, are we running this for a permit and inspection? The vent layout's going to be fine.

(3)Does everything upstairs like the sink, tub, and toilet tie in to that 2” steel pipe somewhere in the wall for venting purposes?

Your upstairs toilets and lavatories are vented through the 4"cast iron and the reason the kitchen is on a separate vent is so he could pick up the basement lavatory off it. It most likely revents back in the attic.

Thanks for the pictures, they helped a lot. Tom

If you're willing to change out the basement closet bend I might be able to save you the hassle of attempting to tie the PVC into the 4" cast iron stack vent. Replace the existing closet bend with one that has a 2" threaded heel inlet and connect the drain to that, or one with a 45 degree threaded side inlet, (whichever works best) and screw A 2" PVC male adapter into it and connect direct into the closet bend and from there into the sewer. Also do not use a tee to tie the lavatory drain in. Use a 2" combination wye and 1/8th bend instead.

No, this job will not be inspected, so I guess I'm not concerned too much with the details, I am just aiming for:

1) Want to make sure everything is done right below the slab so it drains right, and:


2) Want to make sure venting is adequate enough so there are no gases and everything drains OK w/o "gurgling" or whatever.

This bathroom will not be used nearly as much as the "main" one upstairs.


Tom, I do have more pictures and I can make diagrams of them like in the last post but it's frustrating though because the web site only allows 40kb or so I guess, so I have to keep resizing and cutting them down and can only post one at a time.

Thanks for the help, and I'm sure more questions will be forthcoming .

Jon

Thanks Tom -

Now I am pretty much in tune with what I have to do with the PVC waste piping. I may come back to a few details like that fitting you were talking about later.

I've also been searching and reading other threads in the plumbing forum and found some advice and details you gave that answered some questions I had. I'll do this 1st, because you probably get the same questions over & over again and I imagine it can get annoying at times.


In the meantime, I did some investigation this morning and cut part of the subfloor so I could look up into the wall better and see where everything leads to. Now I've figured everything out and I don't know if it's looking good.

l'll clarify everything for you so you have a good idea of the plumbing infrastructure in the house:


1.) The 4" cast iron stack drains everything upstairs - toilet, tub, kitchen and bathroom sinks, and of course, the toilet down here. It goes up all the way to the roof.

2) The 2" galv. Steel pipe was only a waste line for the bathroom sink that was previously here (remnants of the trap/drain pipe that connects to it you can see in the photo). This pipe however, does not go to the roof as I previously thought but rather goes up the wall approx. 4-5 feet from the ceiling downstairs and then turns 90 degrees and taps into the 4 "cast iron stack.

Is this arrangement out of the ordinary? Now I don't know if I can do what I proposed earlier with the venting (see photo below for continuation of above photo for proposed vent route).


-I really don't want to have to cut & support the vertical section of the 4" cast so I can tie in with my vent.

-I'd also rather not have to drill holes and run a vent pipe all the way through the wall above the new bathroom sink and into the attic and cut another hole in the roof.

Hey, but I guess if I want a bathroom and there are no other alternatives, I may have to do one of these!!

Also, what are your feelings on those "internal" vents (called Studor??) that sit in the wall - is that a good alternative? Are they noisy? Will it "stink" at times? Might I look into that in this situation?

OK, enough rambling for now... thanks again... I'm sure I'll be back :D

Jon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J Bone

Thanks Tom -

Now I am pretty much in tune with what I have to do with the PVC waste piping. I may come back to a few details like that fitting you were talking about later.

I've also been searching and reading other threads in the plumbing forum and found some advice and details you gave that answered some questions I had. I'll do this 1st, b/c you probably get the same questions over & over again and I imagine it can get annoying at times.


In the meantime, I did some investigation this morning and cut part of the subfloor so I could look up into the wall better and see where everything leads to. Now I've figured everything out and I don't know if it's looking good.

l'll clarify everything for you so you have a good idea of the plumbing infrastructure in the house:


1.) The 4" cast iron stack drains everything upstairs - toilet, tub, kitchen and bathroom sinks, and of course, the toilet down here. It goes up all the way to the roof.

2) The 2" galv. steel pipe was only a waste line for the bathroom sink that was previously here (remnants of the trap/drain pipe that connects to it you can see in the photo). This pipe however, does not go to the roof as I previously thought but rather goes up the wall approx. 4-5 feet from the ceiling downstairs and then turns 90 degrees and taps into the 4 "cast iron stack.

Is this arrangement out of the ordinary? Now I don't know if I can do what I proposed earlier with the venting (see photo below for continuation of above photo for proposed vent route).


-I really don't want to have to cut & support the vertical section of the 4" cast so I can tie in with my vent.

-I'd also rather not have to drill holes and run a vent pipe all the way through the wall above the new bathroom sink and into the attic and cut another hole in the roof.

Hey, but I guess if I want a bathroom and there are no other alternatives, I may have to do one of these!!

Also, what are your feelings on those "internal" vents (called Studor??) that sit in the wall - is that a good alternative? Are they noisy? Will it "stink" at times? Might I look into that in this situation?

OK, enough rambling for now....thanks again.....I'm sure I'll be back :D

Jon

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Hi jon,

(1) The 4" cast iron stack drains everything upstairs - toilet, tub, kitchen and bathroom sinks, and of course, the toilet down here. It goes up all the way to the roof.

Let's not befuddle me any more then creeping old age has already has.
Sink are only located in the kitchen. Lavatorys are located in the bathrooms.
When you told me the 2" galvanized was the sink drain I assumed it drained the kitchen sink and the basement lavatory connected with a "S" trap to the kitchen sink drain. Whole new ball game on venting the basement group.

(2)2" galv. steel pipe was only a waste line for the bathroom sink that was previously here (remnants of the trap/drain pipe that connects to it you can see in the photo). This pipe however, does not go to the roof as I previously thought but rather goes up the wall approx. 4-5 feet from the ceiling downstairs and then turns 90 degrees and taps into the 4 "cast iron stack. Is this arrangement out of the ordinary? Now I don't know if I can do what I proposed earlier with the venting.

Since we now have a dry vent, the way it revents back to the cast iron is perfectly acceptable and you may tie back the PVC in the basement instead of having to revent 6" above the highest fixture. Just can the trap you made with the two 90's and raise it to run in the floor joists so it connects straight in . Give it 1/8 to 1/4"to the foot slope back to the lavatory and invert a drainage tee to connect the PVC to the galvanized vent.

(3) -I really don't want to have to cut & support the vertical section of the 4" cast so I can tie in with my vent.

If you're willing to change out the basement closet bend I might be able to save you the hassle of attempting to tie the PVC into the 4" cast iron stack vent. Replace the existing closet bend with one that has a 2" threaded heel inlet and connect the drain to that, or one with a 45 degree threaded side inlet, (whichever works best) and screw A 2" PVC male adapter into it and connect direct into the closet bend and from there into the sewer. Also do not use a tee to tie the lavatory drain in. Use a 2" combination wye and 1/8th bend instead.

(4)-I'd also rather not have to drill holes and run a vent pipe all the way through the wall above the new bathroom sink and into the attic and cut another hole in the roof.

You're going to have to raise the vent over the closet bend to eliminate the trap you designed, so rent a angle drill and a 2 3/4" self feed wood bit and run it through the floor joists.

(5) Also, what are your feelings on those "internal" vents (called Studor? ) that sit in the wall - is that a good alternative? Are they noisy? Will it "stink" at times? Might I look into that in this situation?

Studor Spring Loaded Mechanical Vents are used as a last resort when you can't vent any other way. You have a vent that's already in place that's ready to tie to. "SWEET!!!"

This should clear the way for you to proceed. Cheers, Tom

Good, so what you're saying is essentially it's OK to go with the "vent" plan I laid out from the start...

I feel better now..

Sorry about the confusion w/ the terminology, now I've learned something new!

Also, the picture was just to show the route so it would be easier for you to understand/visualize, I know it obviously won't run diagonally through the joists.

However, I do have a couple quick questions about the PVC vent pipe routing:

1) Is it OK to have (3) 90 degree turns from the lavatory location to where I tie-in?
1st turn - vertical at top of wall, turn 90 perpendicular to joists
2nd turn - through holes in joists over to "joist bay" where 2" steel is,turn 90
3rd turn - run pipe in joist bay to 2" steel, turn 90 to tie-in

2) Since the lavatory will no longer be located in it's old spot and the 2" steel will not be draining anything , can I just cut the 2" steel several inches under the slab, cap it and get rid of most of the vertical section under where the PVC vent will tie in, or should I just leave it alone?

I'm not sure I understand what you meant in the below statement; aren't I still reventing 6" above the highest fixture, being that I am running the PVC well up above the lavatory and over through the ceiling to the 2" steel?


Since we now have a dry vent, the way it revents back to the cast iron is perfectly acceptable and you may tie back the PVC in the basement instead of having to revent 6" above the highest fixture.

Thanks again, I'll probably get started next weekend, rent the jackhammer and go to town!

Have a great weekend... Jon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J Bone

Good, so what you're saying is essentially it's OK to go with the "vent" plan I laid out from the start...

I feel better now..

Sorry about the confusion w/ the terminology, now I've learned something new!

Also, the picture was just to show the route so it would be easier for you to understand/visualize, I know it obviously won't run diagonally through the joists.

However, I do have a couple quick questions about the PVC vent pipe routing:

1) Is it OK to have (3) 90 degree turns from the lavatory location to where I tie-in?
1st turn - vertical at top of wall, turn 90 perpendicular to joists
2nd turn - through holes in joists over to "joist bay" where 2" steel is, turn 90
3rd turn - run pipe in joist bay to 2" steel, turn 90 to tie-in

2) Since the lavatory will no longer be located in it's old spot and the 2" steel will not be draining anything , can I just cut the 2" steel several inches under the slab, cap it and get rid of most of the vertical section under where the PVC vent will tie in, or should I just leave it alone?

I'm not sure I understand what you meant in the below statement; aren't I still reventing 6" above the highest fixture, being that I am running the PVC well up above the lavatory and over through the ceiling to the 2" steel?


Since we now have a dry vent, the way it revents back to the cast iron is perfectly acceptable and you may tie back the PVC in the basement instead of having to revent 6" above the highest fixture.Thanks again, I'll probably get started next weekend, rent the jackhammer and go to town!

Have a great weekend....Jon

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Hi Jon, (1) Is it OK to have (3) 90 degree turns from the lavatory location to where I tie-in?
1st turn - vertical at top of wall, turn 90 perpendicular to joists
2nd turn - through holes in joists over to "joist bay" where 2" steel is,turn 90
3rd turn - run pipe in joist bay to 2" steel, turn 90 to tie-in

Looks good to me, Just keep the pitch and don't have any traps in the line.

(2) Since the lavatory will no longer be located in it's old spot and the 2" steel will not be draining anything , can I just cut the 2" steel several inches under the slab, cap it and get rid of most of the vertical section under where the PVC vent will tie in, or should I just leave it alone?

If you have a way to support the galvanized then you may cut the pipe and cap it off. However you have a dry vent connected to the drainage system that isn't hurting anything by leaving it alone. Some home owners would consider that a definite plus. If you ever wanted to add a fixture, Washer box, laundry tray etc. you would have the drainage and vent already installed. I would just cap off the arm coming off the galvanized and retain it as a option.

(3) "Since we now have a dry vent, the way it revents back to the cast iron is perfectly acceptable and you may tie back the PVC in the basement instead of having to revent 6" above the highest fixture".

I'm not sure I understand what you meant in the above statement; aren't I still reventing 6" above the highest fixture, being that I am running the PVC well up above the lavatory and over through the ceiling to the 2" steel?( and it's galvanized iron not steel.)

Looking at it from that viewpoint you are correct. You are indeed reventing over the top of the highest fixture by reventing over the basement lavatory. However if the kitchen sink were to drain into that pipe,(as I thought it did)you would have had to take the revent 6" above the kitcken sinks rim.

Did you understand this?
If you're willing to change out the basement closet bend I might be able to save you the hassle of attempting to tie the PVC lavatory and shower drain into the 4" cast iron stack vent. Replace the existing closet bend with one that has a 2" threaded heel inlet and connect the drain to that, or one with a 45 degree threaded side inlet, (whichever works best) and screw A 2" PVC male adapter into it and connect direct into the closet bend and from there into the sewer. Also do not use a tee to tie the lavatory drain in. Use a 2" combination wye and 1/8th bend instead.

You have a great week end yourself, Tom

That 2 inch galvanized pipe (that had the old bath lavatory) is vented by way of connecting to your original stack. From your explanation it is tapped into the 4 inch pipe above all other connections so you can definitely connect to the 2 inch and use it to vent your new lavatory sink like you drew in your pictures. Good luck with this project.

What kind of shower are you going to put in?

I'm back again!


Tommytman-

I’m putting in a 32” X 60” shower….Using the Schluter/Kerdi system (not sure if you’ve heard of it).

www.schluter.com

It comes with a sloped/prefab base, curb, 4” square drain, and waterproof membrane that you put over the walls. I am then going to tile the walls and floor.

Tom – I think I understand that statement you made about tying in at the closet bend... I would get a PVC 3" closet bend (90) with an outlet on it that is 2" so that I can bring my drainage into that and tie in at the toilet location. Correct?


I have a pretty good idea of doing the DWV piping. I am going to get pipe and fittings tonight, lay it out this week and probably open up the trenches and lay it this weekend.

As I was discussing earlier, since the ceiling and walls are exposed I am going to replace the upstairs tub drain and lead closet bend. Some questions regarding this:


Tub - Maybe a strange coincidence, but I noticed the tub overflow has been slightly leaking in the past week, so I am actually going to tackle that first, maybe this weekend also. Seems that the plate on the tub is rusting and one of the screws fell out, so when the shower is running and water gets in the hole, it slowly drips downstairs. I want to replace the overflow, trap, and piping with PVC (see photo), and had these questions:

1) The threaded closed nipple coming out of the 4" cast is exposed approximately 1 ¼” before it “disappears” into that galv. Elbow. Is this enough pipe to attach a “Fernco” type fitting to and then PVC up to the tub, meaning can I cut the nipple where it goes into the elbow, or should I just cut the galv. On the vertical section above the elbow, attach a “Fernco” and run my PVC from there?

2) How do I loosen the actual tub drain – from inside the tub?

Lead Bends

My friend removed a couple lead bends in his house recently and said he tried to drill all sorts of holes in the lead, tried prying it out, etc. but to no avail. He ended up removing them easily with an acetylene torch to soften the lead

3) Are there any other “tricks or tips” you might have as far as removing the lead from the packed joint? My father-in-law does have an acetylene torch I can use, but just wondering before hand if there were any other “tricks of the trade.”

I believe that’s all for now….

Thanks

Jon

Tub - Maybe a strange coincidence, but I noticed the tub overflow has been slightly leaking in the past week, so I am actually going to tackle that first, maybe this weekend also. Seems that the plate on the tub is rusting and one of the screws fell out, so when the shower is running and water gets in the hole, it slowly drips downstairs. I want to replace the overflow, trap, and piping with PVC (see photo), and had these questions:

1) The threaded closed nipple coming out of the 4" cast is exposed approximately 1 ¼” before it “disappears” into that galv. Elbow. Is this enough pipe to attach a “Fernco” type fitting to and then PVC up to the tub, meaning can I cut the nipple where it goes into the elbow, or should I just cut the galv. On the vertical section above the elbow, attach a “Fernco” and run my PVC from there?
*************************

They sell plactic adapters that are threaded. If I understand you right you can remove the nipple and use a PVC threaded adapter and don't need a fernco type adapter.

Tom

TommyT-

Yes, I'll do that provided I can back that 40+ year old galv. Nipple out of the cast iron with a pipe wrench. About a year ago I tried to take apart some galv. Pipe under the kitchen sink, and spent about 2+ hours trying to loosen the galv. Couldn't for the life of me and had to cut it with a sawzall and use a rubber boot.

It seems like a tight spot (restricted access)... but I have had several frozen pipe threads like this one (my house was built in 1968). To get them apart I have placed a 3-4 foot extension on my pipe wrench to get extra leverage and then crank away (I use galvanized pipe to make the extension out of). Maybe use some penetrating fluid the night before.

Good luck

Quick question-

Would it be OK to run 1 1/2" PVC for my vent pipe (coming out of the lav thorough the ceiling over to the galvanized), even though the drainage will be 2"?

Just wondering, not a big deal but it would make drilling holes easier plus the galv. Pipe is actually 1 1/2"

Tom -

I got all the PVC last night...I attached a photo of the elbow with the side inlet....although it's a solvent weld inlet and not threaded, this is basically what you were talking about right?

I got the one with the heel inlet also, but after laying it out I think the "sweep" coming into the side inlet will be "cleaner", meaning less bends.

Jon

A

I don't know what the current code is but I know that my vent lines are 1 1/2 inch.

Tommy

Hi Jon,


Tom – I think I understand that statement you made about tying in at the closet bend... I would get a PVC 3" closet bend (90) with an outlet on it that is 2" so that I can bring my drainage into that and tie in at the toilet location. Correct? *****Yes*****

1) The threaded closed nipple coming out of the 4" cast is exposed approximately 1 ¼” before it “disappears” into that galv. Elbow. Is this enough pipe to attach a “Fernco” type fitting to and then PVC up to the tub, meaning can I cut the nipple where it goes into the elbow, or should I just cut the galv. On the vertical section above the elbow, attach a “Fernco” and run my PVC from there?

2) How do I loosen the actual tub drain – from inside the tub?

(1) How I would address this would be first soak the threads with WD40 and then cut the pipe off ABOVE the elbo and put a 18" pipe wrench on the hub of the elbo and see what breaks free. This is a win-win situation. If the elbo and nipple breaks free out of the cast iron then you can screw is a Male PVC adapter and convert from there, (how large are the threads in the cast iron tee?) If the elbo breaks free you can put a female adapter on the nipple and convert to PVC from there. If all else fails you can cut the nipple at the elbo threads and use a fernco coupling but that should be your last resort.

(2) The waste and over flow plate will have to be unscrewed But most of the work will be done outside of the tub. If you want to change out the tub shoe and drain you will have to unscrew the drain from the inside. Note: Unless the drain looks really bad I would leave it.

Lead Bends

My friend removed a couple lead bends in his house recently and said he tried to drill all sorts of holes in the lead, tried prying it out, etc. but to no avail. He ended up removing them easily with an acetylene torch to soften the lead**** Are we talking about lead closet bends or cast Iron closet bends with poured lead joints?****

3) Are there any other “tricks or tips” you might have as far as removing the lead from the packed joint? My father-in-law does have an acetylene torch I can use, but just wondering before hand if there were any other “tricks of the trade.”

(3) If you're referring to a lead and okum poured joint they do make a tool just for removing lead joints. It's called a lead pick. And looks like a slender chisel that's curved with a sharp edge. But you don't need one of those.
Take a torch and melt down past the lead ring into the okum or pound a screwdriver into the lead down a inch or so. Now you are under the lead ring and you can began to lever it up and out, working your way around rhe hub until it pulls free.

Would it be OK to run 1 1/2" PVC for my vent pipe (coming out of the lav thorough the ceiling over to the galvanized), even though the drainage will be 2"?**** Yes, We run our vents 2" but since the vent you're tying into is 1 1/2" that would be fine.****

I got all the PVC last night... I attached a photo of the elbow with the side inlet... although it's a solvent weld inlet and not threaded, this is basically what you were talking about right? **** The only place you will be using threaded PVC fittings is converting from cast iron to PVC. All else will be glue joints.****


I got the one with the heel inlet also, but after laying it out I think the "sweep" coming into the side inlet will be "cleaner", meaning less bends.
**** Your drawing shows the drain from the shower and lavatory as coming almost directly into the heel of the closet bend but if you must use any bends use long sweeps or 45's.***

Good luck, Tom

Upon further inspection (see photo), it appears that the bend is lead, and not cast iron. Is the joint with the cast still a lead and oakum poured joint though? Whatever the case, we'll chisel at it and use the torch if we have to in order to remove it. Likewise with the one below grade if I discover it's the same thing.

1) Once I remove it, do I just clean up the flange and then use a 4" to 3" Fernco "donut", grease it up, hammer it in there and then just push a piece of 3" PVC in the opening and continue with the bend, flange, etc?

2) The tub drain is not in horrible shape, but the bathroom upstairs is original and that will be totally gutted within the next 2 years also. I figured I would replace the overflow, drain, and piping since the ceiling is now exposed, thinking that when I do the bathroom uspstairs, hopefully I can attach the overflow from the wall (studs expsoed), and attach the drain from in the tub). Even if this is impossible to do from above, I can still leave a piece of unfinished drywall dowstairs with the screws exposed (sort of like an "access panel), so I can make connections after the new tub is installed.

What's the best way to remove the drain from inside the tub? Perhaps with needle nose pliers opened up, and then twisted? If its "frozen", would it be OK to make a small cut with a sawzall from above on the drain flange? I have a feeling it ain't going to be easy removing that drain!

Thanks

Jon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J Bone

Upon further inspection (see photo), it appears that the bend is lead, and not cast iron.? Whatever the case, we'll chisel at it and use the torch if we have to in order to remove it. Likewise with the one below grade if I discover it's the same thing.

1) Once I remove it, do I just clean up the flange and then use a 4" to 3" Fernco "donut", grease it up, hammer it in there and then just push a piece of 3" PVC in the opening and continue with the bend, flange, etc?

2) The tub drain is not in horrible shape, but the bathroom upstairs is original and that will be totally gutted within the next 2 years also. I figured I would replace the overflow, drain, and piping since the ceiling is now exposed, thinking that when I do the bathroom uspstairs, hopefully I can attach the overflow from the wall (studs expsoed), and attach the drain from in the tub). Even if this is impossible to do from above, I can still leave a piece of unfinished drywall dowstairs with the screws exposed (sort of like an "access panel), so I can make connections after the new tub is installed.

(3)What's the best way to remove the drain from inside the tub? Perhaps with needle nose pliers opened up, and then twisted? If its "frozen", would it be OK to make a small cut with a sawzall from above on the drain flange? I have a feeling it ain't gonna be easy removing that drain!!

(4) Is the joint with the cast still a lead and oakum poured joint ?

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(1) Yes, That would be the easiest way to convert to PVC.

(2) Code mandates that a access hole 14 X14" be left behind the tub so repairs can be made. This is not a temporary access and is usually framed in and painred to match the wall.

(3) Plumbing supply houses sell a tub drain removal tool but we make our own out of 1 1/4" copper pipe. Look down in the drain at the cross piece. Take a piece of 1 1/4" copper about 4" long and make a crosscut wide enough to slip over the drains cross piece. Now put a 14" pipe wrench on the copper and turn counterclockwise. Since both male and female threads are brass there will be no rust and the 14" pipe wrench will give you the leverage that you need to remove the drain and tub shoe.

(4) Wow! I haven't come across a lead closet bend in over 40 years. I live on the Gulf Coast where we don't have too many older homes. They are knocked down and condos built over them. Some times the land is more valuable then the building it sets on.
The shiny stuff next to the cast iron is solder where the closet bend was "wiped" on to a ferrule that is secured in the cast iron by a lead and okum poured joint. Cut the lead bend out and follow instructions for removing the ferrule and poured joint. They make a tool just for removing lead joints. It's called a lead pick. And looks like a slender chisel that's curved with a sharp edge. But you don't need one of those.
Take a torch and melt down past the lead ring into the okum or pound a screwdriver into the lead down a inch or so. Now you are under the lead ring and you can began to lever it up and out, working your way around rhe hub until it pulls free.

I'm working up quite a file on you. I have all your photos and some of your posts printed out.
Cheers, Tom

I’m back again!

So far, its gone OK….Busted up the slab and removed some earth, both of which took less time and was easier than I thought it would be. I re-pipe the upstairs tub using PVC and my father-in-law came over with the torch last weekend and we removed the lead bend under the slab with no problem.

After this I cleaned out the flange and put in my donut, closet bend, and capped it off until I run the pipe to the shower. I do have a concern about this though. It seems that there is a Tee in the cast iron where the bend comes into the bathroom. The other end goes out to the cesspool. I figured before I unearthed everything that the main stack would drop perhaps another 6” of so before it goes out to the cesspool but that is not the case. Nothing I can change now because this is the way the house was built.

Anyway, I noticed from looking down that 3” stub I temporarily placed at the top of the elbow (see photo) that whenever the toilet, sink, etc. is used some water comes into this pipe. The other day I looked and noticed some “solids” deposited in there.

These are my questions before I finish the drainage piping:

1) Once I bring my 2” pipe to the shower and lavatory, do you think the water and sludge will make it up to these fixtures whenever something upstairs is used, or will the pitch prevent this?

2) If you forsee a problem, would my next option be to re-route the pipe, break the cast “behind” the bathroom and tie-in there instead?

3) Will the installation of the toilet alleviate this problem, being that when it is flushed maybe it will help to direct everything out towards the cesspool, and prevent this pipe from getting clogged?

4) This bathroom probably won’t be used as much as the one upstairs, so maybe it’s just a matter of snaking out the lines once or twice a year just to be sure they don’t become clogged. What do you think?

Also if you want to see photos of the plumbing work, click on the following link.

http://community.webshots.com/user/jbone5014


Thanks

Jon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J Bone

I’m back again!!

So far, its gone OK….Busted up the slab and removed some earth, both of which took less time and was easier than I thought it would be. I re-pipe the upstairs tub using PVC and my father-in-law came over with the torch last weekend and we removed the lead bend under the slab with no problem.

After this I cleaned out the flange and put in my donut, closet bend, and capped it off until I run the pipe to the shower. I do have a concern about this though. It seems that there is a Tee in the cast iron where the bend comes into the bathroom. The other end goes out to the cesspool. I figured before I unearthed everything that the main stack would drop perhaps another 6” of so before it goes out to the cesspool but that is not the case. Nothing I can change now b/c this is the way the house was built.

Anyway, I noticed from looking down that 3” stub I temporarily placed at the top of the elbow (see photo) that whenever the toilet, sink, etc. is used some water comes into this pipe. The other day I looked and noticed some “solids” deposited in there.

These are my questions before I finish the drainage piping:

1) Once I bring my 2” pipe to the shower and lavatory, do you think the water and sludge will make it up to these fixtures whenever something upstairs is used, or will the pitch prevent this?

2) If you forsee a problem, would my next option be to re-route the pipe, break the cast “behind” the bathroom and tie-in there instead?

3) Will the installation of the toilet alleviate this problem, being that when it is flushed maybe it will help to direct everything out towards the cesspool, and prevent this pipe from getting clogged?

4) This bathroom probably won’t be used as much as the one upstairs, so maybe it’s just a matter of snaking out the lines once or twice a year just to be sure they don’t become clogged. What do you think?
hink?
Also if you want to see photos of the plumbing work, click on the following link.

http://community.webshots.com/user/jbone5014


Thanks

Jon

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Hey Jon,
At the base of the stack I'm looking at a tee with a side inlet that picks up what? Dig the tee out a bit and send me a photo.
1) Once I bring my 2” pipe to the shower and lavatory, do you think the water and sludge will make it up to these fixtures whenever something upstairs is used, or will the pitch prevent this?

Since I can't see the downstream side of the tee I can't really be sure exactly what fitting I'm looking at. I hope a drainage tee with a bend that directs the flow outward. There's bound to be a little "backwash" from the discharge dropped down from upstairs. Not to worry, pitch and the discharge from the downstairs bath group should keep the line clear.

2) If you forsee a problem, would my next option be to re-route the pipe, break the cast “behind” the bathroom and tie-in there instead?

I don't forsee a problem with the layout as it is.


3) Will the installation of the toilet alleviate this problem, being that when it is flushed maybe it will help to direct everything out towards the cesspool, and prevent this pipe from getting clogged?

Answered in #1

4) This bathroom probably won’t be used as much as the one upstairs, so maybe it’s just a matter of snaking out the lines once or twice a year just to be sure they don’t become clogged. What do you think?

I don't see a problem at all. In time the shower line will clog up with hair and grease, (they all do). I don't know if the back wall of the shower is a outside or a inside wall but if it's a inside wall you might consider cutting in a 2"wye and running it back of the shower wall to a cleanout just so you wouldn't have to snake the basement group from the lavatorey vent on the roof.
PS. The thumbnails were great, they put me right in step with you as you proceed. Cheers, Tom

Tom -

Sounds good, I'm going to dig that out a bit just to see what I have. The side inlet you were wondering about is just that steel pipe that was originally the drain & vent for the existing lavatory that was here, and now it will only act as a vent for the new bathroom group once I tie it in (see previous posts & photos).

The shower is on an inside wall which I just finished re-framing by the way in order to get it perfectly square for the shower wall which will be tiled. It's not a bad idea to locate that cleanout you are talking about in the wall and I may do it, however, would it be OK when the time comes to just unscrew the shower drain and snake the line from there to where it ties in at the toilet?

Jon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J Bone

Tom -

Sounds good, I'm going to dig that out a bit just to see what I have. The side inlet you were wondering about is just that steel pipe that was originally the drain & vent for the existing lavatory that was here, and now it will only act as a vent for the new bathroom group once I tie it in (see previous posts & photos).

The shower is on an inside wall which I just finished re-framing by the way in order to get it perfectly square for the shower wall which will be tiled. It's not a bad idea to locate that cleanout you are talking about in the wall and I may do it, however, would it be OK when the time comes to just unscrew the shower drain and snake the line from there to where it ties in at the toilet?

Jon

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Hi Jon,

"It's not a bad idea to locate that cleanout you are talking about in the wall and I may do it, however, would it be OK when the time comes to just unscrew the shower drain and snake the line from there to where it ties in at the toilet?"

You may go in through the shower drain with a snake, however you'll have to work it around the return bend in the trap if you do. I just gave you a easier option. Cheers, Tom

My drain lines are in, they have been tested with a hose (No leaks, yes! ), and now I am in the process of backfilling the trench and tonight hope to pour the concrete.


I just had a couple questions about the toilet riser & flange before I proceed:

I have a 4 X 3 closet flange and I have a piece of 3" PVC to use as a riser coming from the closet bend. The 3" pipe and the flange throat are the same diameter, so rather than use a bushing which would force me to glue everything together now and estimate the final flange height...


1)Can I get a flange which either fits over or inside the 3" PVC?

2) If this is the case, should I just glue a 3" riser that is longer than I need and leave a small gap around the outside when I do the concrete so the flange will fit over this after I cut it to the correct height?

3) It is my understanding that the underside of the closet flange sits on top of the finished tiled floor, meaning I would cut the riser and mount the flange later on after I lay the tile. What type of fastener would I use to mount the flange thorugh the tile and into the concrete, a tapcon or concrete screw of some sort?

Thanks,


Jon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J Bone

My drain lines are in, they have been tested with a hose (No leaks, yes!!), and now I am in the process of backfilling the trench and tonight hope to pour the concrete.


I just had a couple questions about the toilet riser & flange before I proceed:

I have a 4 X 3 closet flange and I have a piece of 3" PVC to use as a riser coming from the closet bend. The 3" pipe and the flange throat are the same diameter, so rather than use a bushing which would force me to glue everything together now and estimate the final flange height...


1)Can I get a flange which either fits over or inside the 3" PVC?

2) If this is the case, should I just glue a 3" riser that is longer than I need and leave a small gap around the outside when I do the concrete so the flange will fit over this after I cut it to the correct height?

3) It is my understanding that the underside of the closet flange sits on top of the finished tiled floor, meaning I would cut the riser and mount the flange later on after I lay the tile. What type of fastener would I use to mount the flange thorugh the tile and into the concrete, a tapcon or concrete screw of some sort?

Thanks,


Jon

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Hi Jon,

I've been off line for a little bit. I had to format my hard drive.


1)Can I get a flange which either fits over or inside the 3" PVC?

Yes, both are available which one do you want?

2) If this is the case, should I just glue a 3" riser that is longer than I need and leave a small gap around the outside when I do the concrete so the flange will fit over this after I cut it to the correct height?

If you go with the outside closet flange,( recommended) then get a styrafoam (sp) closet wrapper to place around the stub up before pouring the floor. That will leave you the space you need to set the flange.


3) It is my understanding that the underside of the closet flange sits on top of the finished tiled floor, meaning I would cut the riser and mount the flange later on after I lay the tile. What type of fastener would I use to mount the flange thorugh the tile and into the concrete, a tapcon or concrete screw of some sort?

Tile up to the closet wrapper and cut the stub up flush with the floor line. You shouldn't have to secure the flange as the cement and ground should hold it firm but if you can move it after it's been set for tile floors we drill a 1/4" hole and plastic inserts and screw the flange to those. For vinyl over cement we use Tapcons.
Regards Tom

Hope this helps... If I post this site much more people will think I work there.

Plumbest.com has a catalog with a ton of flanges. Below is a link to one that fits inside a 3 inch and does not require cement.


http://www.plumbest.com/searchengine...atalog/e93.htm

Drainage phase is complete, framing is just about completed and I will soon focus my energy on installing the water supply lines. Had a couple of questions regarding this. The hot & cold lines I cut and capped when demolishing the bathroom... one is 3/4" and the other 1/2" , don't remember which is which.

Anyway...

1) Is it OK to run 1/2" supply lines to all my fixtures?

2) I was trying to plan out the routing of the lines and it seems the easiest way would be to run them across the ceiling joists, notching them out. Is this OK to do, and how would I secure the pipe so it doesn't move up and down?
Perhaps with those metal plates or 1/2" copper pipe clamps?

Thanks,

Jon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J Bone

Drainage phase is complete, framing is just about completed and I will soon focus my energy on installing the water supply lines. Had a couple of questions regarding this. The hot & cold lines I cut and capped when demolishing the bathroom...one is 3/4" and the other 1/2" , don't remember which is which.

Anyway...

1) Is it OK to run 1/2" supply lines to all my fixtures?

2) I was trying to plan out the routing of the lines and it seems the easiest way would be to run them across the ceiling joists, notching them out. Is this OK to do, and how would I secure the pipe so it doesn't move up and down?
Perhaps with those metal plates or 1/2" copper pipe clamps?

Thanks,

Jon

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Hi Jon, welcome back.

1) Is it OK to run 1/2" supply lines to all my fixtures?

Code calls for not over three fixtures on a 1/2" branch that comes off a 3/4" main. Since I'm looking at only three fixtures in your picture the answer is yes.

2) I was trying to plan out the routing of the lines and it seems the easiest way would be to run them across the ceiling joists, notching them out. Is this OK to do, and how would I secure the pipe so it doesn't move up and down?
Perhaps with those metal plates or 1/2" copper pipe clamps?

It's acceptable to run overhead and drop to pick up the fixtures. Do not use galvanized plates as it could set up galvanic current and eat into the copper pipe with electrolysis. 1/2" copper pipe straps are what you should use. If securing the supply drop lines become a problem then we tack the drop pipe to the pipe strap with a little solder. Kudos on winding down your remodel job. Tom