I hate that I have such a lack of knowledge... but, I'm having a problem with understanding why my hot water handle (which is pretty new), won't hang on to the stem that controls my water coming on and off. If, I can turn the water on by turning the inner stem, why can't the handle control it? Does it need to be caulked, or glued? Am I expected to remove to handles to turn the stem every time I need hot water to my tub? That seems extreme and stupid, if you ever have to work on it again. Or, is it more likely that there is stem damage or it's just worn out somewhere in the stem? The truth is both of my water handles are messed up, but the cold still works (barely) .I really don't get it. To work on the stem (if neccessary), do you have to pull the stem out to work on it? I would appreciate it if I could gain an understading of the way it works.?

It is very simple. The stem, which is round, has little protrusions which stick out called splines. The handle which has a round hole that the stem fits into has notches for the splines.. Therefore when the handle turns the stem also has to turn. The screw that goes through the handle and screws into the stem is only there to hold the handle on, not to make the stem turn.

The hole in the handle must be the same size as the stem and must have the same number of splines. It must fit precisely. Close is not good enough.

Apparently you replaced your old handles with new ones that were the incorrect size. When you do that, the notches wear away very quickly and the stem does not turn.

There are many different sizes and spline counts.
If you have the old handles take them to the store and get new ones that are correct. If you don't have the old handles you will probably have to turn off the water, take out the stem and take it to the store to find the correct handles.

Remove one of the handles and post a picture of the stem. We can tell you how to remove the stem. Post the picture on this thread. Don't start a new thread each time you want to post something.

Harold, Thanks for giving me a visual at least. I just wrote you an indepth reply, and it disappeared... so, I'm just going to first try to attach my pics, then try writing again afterwards, cause I did notice some interesting things. Ok/ bear with me. I just did, but I can't tell if it worked. Please let me know that you got them, OK? This site is really hard for me, what I'm doing is, rating your response, then adding a reply (which is the only option I see to choose) then your email answer comes up. I then type to you above your letter,(but still on your email), is that right? Am I supposed to do it that way?

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

It is very simple. The stem, which is round, has little protrusions which stick out called splines. The handle which has a round hole that the stem fits into has notches for the splines.. Therefore when the handle turns the stem also has to turn. The screw that goes thru the handle and screws into the stem is only there to hold the handle on, not to make the stem turn.

The hole in the handle must be the same size as the stem and must have the same number of splines. It must fit precisely. Close is not good enough.

Apparently you replaced your old handles with new ones that were the incorrect size. When you do that, the notches wear away very quickly and the stem does not turn.

There are many different sizes and spline counts.
If you have the old handles take them to the store and get new ones that are correct. If you don't have the old handles you will probably have to turn off the water, take out the stem and take it to the store to find the correct handles.

Remove one of the handles and post a picture of the stem. We can tell you how to remove the stem. Post the picture on this thread. Don't start a new thread each time you want to post something.

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No pictures.
Up load pictures to computer in JPEG format. Make a response in the Answer block. Click on the Go Advance block below the Answer block. Scroll down and click o the Manage Attachments Button. Browse to find picture, high light and open file. Click on Upload Button. Post response.

Hi again. It says and shows that 1 pic was attached, I apologize for the inability of seeing it clearly. I'm attaching more. Thank You so much for the help working this site!! It'sbeen driving me nuts!! Also, I tried turning the bad handle, and the stem. Athough the stem turned, no water came out, and the stem (when turning) also turned the nut ate thebottom of the stem (which also unthreaded the stems threads from the bolt?? When I checked the good handle, the stem only turned , and the bolt held it's place .

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

No pictures.
Up load pictures to computer in JPEG format. Make a response in the Answer block. Click on the Go Advance block below the Answer block. Scroll down and click o the Manage Attachments Button. Browse to find picture, high light and open file. Click on Upload Button. Post response.

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The stem and therefore the "spines" look worn to me (hard to say for sure)... ;)

If you remove the cold handle, do the stem spines look the same as the hot stem spines? If not, replace the stem. If so, then ,try the cold handle on the hot stem and see if that works. If it does, replace the handle on the hot side to resolve the issue!

Mark

Hold the nut with a wrench and then turn the stem with a pair of pliers. If water comes out turn the stem to completely open (while holding the nut), then tighten the nut. Tighten securely.

If water does not come out, turn off the water to the house. Remove the stem by turning the nut counter clockwise until it has complete unscrewed. Pull the stem out. Put a cup over where the stem was. Have someone turn the water back on briefly, about 5-10 seconds. This should flush out anything that is blocking the pipe.

Reinstall the stem. Hold the nut with a wrench and turn the stem counter clockwise until it is fully open. Then put the stem in the opening and tighten the nut. Tighten the nut securely. Turn the water back on and see if turning the stem turn the water on.

Hi again Mark, actually the cold water (the one that does work), stem looks like the spines are even more worn than the other. They are almost worn down all the way. You can barely feel the indentations or spines. I was surprised that it's the one working. You think I should still try the "handle- switch" thing?
[
QUOTE=massplumber2008;3515023]The stem and therefore the "spines" look worn to me (hard to say for sure)... ;)

If you remove the cold handle, do the stem spines look the same as the hot stem spines? If not, replace the stem. If so, then ,try the cold handle on the hot stem and see if that works. If it does, replace the handle on the hot side to resolve the issue!

Mark[/QUOTE]

Only takes a minute to try/swap the handles (use the cold one on the hot one, too)... should reveal a little more.

Mark, OK.. I exchanged the handles and the cold handle on the hot side made no difference, still no water. The hot handle on the cold side turns the water on, as before, which is surprising due to worn stem. It was worth a shot. I'm afraid of having to remove the stem, without help anyway. I don't have the strength or grip I used to. But, thanks anyway. Got anymore tricks?

Yo.. Harold?? Ok, I just went to Home Depot... just looking really... but, when I found 2 of the same stems (with brand new perfectly notched -out- spines)... I bought them, but I'm a bit concerned... in the package w/ the stem was another brass "nut?" and a red" O-Ring?"... I asked the clerk what it was, and was told it was the "Valve Seat"... So, Now... when I pulled the stem out, I didn't have any of that stuff..? The new one has a washer/ screw/ and the valve seat (nut) & the red O-ring..? What happened to mine? Is it still in there? Did I break it off while trying to get it out?. And... am I now faced with the whole "getting to an access door to work on the plumbing, beneath the bathtub?? Which, if you recall, is my very first question I asked at this site?? I don't want you to think I'm freakin' out, but yes, I'm kind of worried.
I also have spoken to my son, and he told me that He did that flush test you mentioned, and what he's most perplexed about is; that both stems,( when removed ), have the same parts on them, but why does the cold water one work?? And as I think about it, they both shouldn't work, right?? Please help me?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

Hold the nut with a wrench and then turn the stem with a pair of pliers. If water comes out turn the stem to completely open (while holding the nut), then tighten the nut. Tighten securely.

If water does not come out, turn off the water to the house. Remove the stem by turning the nut counter clockwise until it has complete unscrewed. Pull the stem out. Put a cup over where the stem was. Have someone turn the water back on briefly, about 5-10 seconds. This should flush out anything that is blocking the pipe.

Reinstall the stem. Hold the nut with a wrench and turn the stem counter clockwise until it is fully open. Then put the stem in the opening and tighten the nut. Tighten the nut securely. Turn the water back on and see if turning the stem turn the water on.

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Additional questions...

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Originally Posted by suziq11

Yo.. Harold??? Ok, I just went to Home Depot... just looking really... but, when I found 2 of the exact same stems (with brand new perfectly notched -out- spines)... I bought them, but I'm a bit concerned... in the package w/ the stem was another brass "nut?" and a red" O-Ring?"... I asked the clerk what it was, and was told it was the "Valve Seat"... So, Now... when i pulled the stem out, I didn't have any of that stuff...??? The new one has a washer/ screw/ and the valve seat (nut) & the red O-ring...??? What happened to mine? Is it still in there? Did I break it off while trying to get it out?... And... am I now faced with the whole "getting to an access door to work on the plumbing, beneath the bathtub???? Which, if you recall, is my very first question i asked at this site??? I don't want you to think I'm freakin' out, but yes, I'm kinda worried.
I also have spoken to my son, and he told me that He did that flush test you mentioned, and what he's most perplexed about is; that both stems,( when removed ), have the same parts on them, but why does the cold water one work??? and as I think about it, they both shouldn't work, right??? Please help me?

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I posted this a couple of days ago, and I know I'm not your only job to do, but, I really don't know how to go about dealing with anything below the stem. Like, what comes next? The washer? Then the screw? The O-ring? (that attaches to what? Then the valve seat ?(with the threads facing down?) If I can understand it, I feel I may be able to do it.

OK, if I understand correctly, you went to Home Depot looked at some stems and because they looked the same you purchased them. If that is correct, return them. You have as much chance of them fitting as I have winning a 50 million dollar lottery and I didn't buy a ticket.

You have to do as I instructed in my last post. You have to do those things and tell us what happens.

From all you have said, what I think has happened is this.

You wanted new handles. You purchased new acrylic knobs but they were not the correct size. They were probably a little to large and fit loosely on the stems. Because they fit loosely the splines on the stems wore out the grooves in the handle. Your son, looking for the problem, remove the hot water stem. (You said he flushed the valve). I believe he did not reinstall the hot valve properly. (You said the nut turned when you turned the stem.) That should not happen.

The stem threads into the inside of the nut. The nut then threads into the valve body. The threads of the stem and the threads on the inside of the nut are what makes the stem go up and down when you turn it. The threads on the outside of the nut hold the nut and the stem in place.

You have to remove the nut and stem. Then thread the stem into the nut, then thread the nut into the faucet. The stem has to be threaded all the way into the nut (open position) when installing the nut back in the valve. If you don't do that, the stem will press against the seat before you get the nut fully installed.

Forget about access to the other side of the faucet. There is nothing there to service, fix, repair or adjust. The only time you need access to the other side is when you are replacing the faucet completely.

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

OK, if I understand correctly, you went to Home Depot looked at some stems and because they looked the same you purchased them. If that is correct, return them. You have as much chance of them fitting as I have winning a 50 million dollar lottery and I didn't buy a ticket.

You have to do as I instructed in my last post. You have to do those things and tell us what happens.

From all you have said, what I think has happened is this.

You wanted new handles. You purchased new acrylic knobs but they were not the correct size. They were probably a little to large and fit loosely on the stems. Because they fit loosely the splines on the stems wore out the grooves in the handle. Your son, looking for the problem, remove the hot water stem. (You said he flushed the valve). I believe he did not reinstall the hot valve properly. (You said the nut turned when you turned the stem.) That should not happen.

The stem threads into the inside of the nut. The nut then threads into the valve body. The threads of the stem and the threads on the inside of the nut are what makes the stem go up and down when you turn it. The threads on the outside of the nut hold the nut and the stem in place.

You have to remove the nut and stem. Then thread the stem into the nut, then thread the nut into the faucet. The stem has to be threaded all the way into the nut (open position) when installing the nut back in the valve. If you don't do that, the stem will press against the seat before you get the nut fully installed.

Forget about access to the other side of the faucet. There is nothing there to service, fix, repair or adjust. The only time you need access to the other side is when you are replacing the faucet completely.

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Yes! I think you understand what's going on. I have installed and re-installed that stem quite a few times in this past week, but I also just did it again step by step according to your instructions, and this time I was able to tighten that nut better. But, I still get no water, other than what bubbles up from stem hole. I don't know if it's imparative that I do the water shut-off, and turn on every time. I haven't had any one over to be that extra person. Does that make a difference? If so, I'll have to wait until I do have a visitor.
I was able (while stem was out) to see into the hole, and saw that the washer and screw are still in the seat. I can't tell what condition they're in... and I can't think of a tool that could get it out with (if washer is the problem)... I wonder if it would help at all to add another washer to the top of the seat before re-installing stem again??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suziq11

Yes! I think you understand what's going on. I have installed and re-installed that stem quite a few times in this past week, but I also just did it again step by step according to your instructions, and this time I was able to tighten that nut better. But, I still get no water, other than what bubbles up from stem hole. I don't know if it's imparative that I do the water shut-off, and turn on every time. I haven't had any one over to be that extra person. Does that make a difference? If so, I'll have to wait until I do have a visitor.?
I was able (while stem was out) to see into the hole, and saw that the washer and screw are still in the seat. I can't tell what condition they're in... and I can't think of a tool that could get it out with (if washer is the problem)... I wonder if it would help at all to add another washer to the top of the seat before re-installing stem again???

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Also, I know you doubt this, but the stem I bought is not only the same looking, but has the same numbers of spines/ diameters as the old one, (which really doesn't matter if I don't need them. And While comparing, You are correct about my handles being wrong. They have like 15 notches as compared to my stem which has 12. DUH! Is there a way I could use threading tape or caulk to help them fit (that is, of course if I ever regain use of my hot water faucet again)?? Or must I search and purchase new ones? I hope you read this soon and can recommend something, & answer my new questions. I am following your every word of advice. Thanks again, suzi

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saw that the washer and screw are still in the seat.

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Are you saying that there is a washer in the hole after you remove the stem. If you shine a flashlight in the hole after removing the stem all you should see is the seat with a hole in it. Basically what you see should look like the end of small pipe.

The washer and screw should be on the end of the stem. If the washer and screw are down in the hole, turning on the water with the stem removed should blow the washer and screw out.
If you have no assistant, remove the stem. Put a small bowl turned up side down over it. Put something heavy, like a brick, on top of the bowl. Turn on the water, quickly and briefly. The worst thing you can do is wet the floor.

..

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can you explain to me the way a faucet works?

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[QUOTE=hkstroud;3521548]Are you saying that there is a washer in the hole after you remove the stem. If you shine a flashlight in the hole after removing the stem all you should see is the seat with a hole in it. Basically what you see should look like the end of small pipe.

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[suziq] Yes! That's what I thought after seeing what all goes with the Brand new stem.... that's why I thought it needed a washer before! Neither, my hot or cold stems have their washers on the end. And i used a flashlight before I sent last message.

The washer and screw should be on the end of the stem. If the washer and screw are down in the hole, turning on the water with the stem removed should blow the washer and screw out.
If you have no assistant, remove the stem. Put a small bowl turned up side down over it. Put something heavy, like a brick, on top of the bowl. Turn on the water, quickly and briefly. The worst thing you can do is wet the floor.

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[QUOTE][/suziq] You're saying to cover it this way while I go out to turn the main off and on?? I'm just making sure I understand. OK, it's late now, but I'll do it tomorrow...
I sure hope I don't have to go after that screw & washer... it looked like the screw is screwed up into the area the stem goes into

Yes.

PS,
It is not necessary to quote what I just posted. Only do that if you want to direct my attention to a specific thing. It makes the post unnecessarily long.

You seem to think I've learned how to manage this site, huh? ***Am I supposed to delete your text? Then use your box? Cause, the only choice I seem to have about responding to you is in your original email Text box... when you've explained before, you seem to be looking at a different page than me?? $%^&!! I know, it annoys me too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

Yes.

PS,
It is not necessary to quote what I just posted. Only do that if you want to direct my attention to a specific thing. It makes the post unnecessarily long.

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You just go down to the "Answer this question" block and post your reply there.

The only time I get the "answer this question block" is when I view my post. I have been clicking reply to your post, which then, only gives me the "quick answer" block, which is what I'm trying now. Is this the correct way? I sure wish this is correct cause "man"... this post has turned into a novel by now, and I bet the forum would make it a lot more clear for me if this was costing them "paper"

OK, you got it.

Now isn't your post a lot easier to read?

"YEAH!!!"... I am tickled... and feeling a bit "VICTORIOUS!" Donka.

Ok harold... tonight I was going to attempt the water shut off thing, but I don't know if you realized that I had ( a few times) removed and reinstalled that stem without turning the water off, Every time! So if the washer was going to be blown out, it really already would have right? So, after I turned the water off, I attempted to get them out. I was finally able to. The cold water one also had a washer (the kind with a hump), and the hot one had a malformed one (looked like one of those kind that have a hump on top melted onto a regular flat washer.) & with the screw, (which I told you I saw). It took me so long getting them out, that I just reinstalled, and turned the water back on... Now... when I came back inside, I heard and saw the cold water on at a low flow, (which I thought I'd tightened)... and it took every bit of strength to get it down to a drizzle. (did I mention that I had a problem a couple of years ago, due to the constant dripping?? ) well, here I go again, I guess!
And the hot water?? NOTHING!
Please don't get put out that I didn't follow your instructions completely, but you can see that my reasoning was sound? I hope/
I will do it again by your instuctions OK? Maybe there is more of something still in there?? I am hoping though, that you read this and it gives you more of a clue as to WHAT IS WRONG??

Sorry, I've been sick, so I haven't done the water shut off & on thing, but I'm kinda' waiting to see what you think about the fact that, every time I've worked on the Hot water stem, the water hasn't been shut off then on and off again? I mean, doesn't that indicate a different type of problem? If then water is on, & I remove the stem/ nut, shouldn't the water have been trying to shoot through? I mean, that's what you've said it should do when I've removed the stem & then turn the water back on for a few seconds, right? So, if , when the water is on, and no water comes out of that faucet... what is stopping it? Could it be the valve seat? Could it be so worn out, or beaten up, that it won't allow water to pass through?

What about replacing the stems altogether and handles.Or a whole new faucet. Or buy some kwik-set epoxy glue at the hardware store and put some in the handle and glue it as a temporary measure until it can be replaced .

Well, you're new... I wish that you would read my first few pages... I already bought & now I know that the handles (acrylic knobs, the chrome valve cover and the chrome "Under handle" as a set).. are the wrong ones.. and after a lot of inspection the "under handle" which has the notches that are supposed to be the same amount as the amount of spines on the stem, aren't the same, and to epoxy glue it at this stage would make it impossible to ever work on or get to it again. And, since my problem seems to be deeper than the "Handles", I still have to have access to the stem, nut, washer, valve seat..? I think it's a matter of something causing a block that won't let my water to flow. Are you a plumber? I am dealing with a real problem, and need answers to my previous questions... Ok?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suziq11

well, you're new... I wish that you would read my first few pages... I already bought & now I know that the handles (acrylic knobs, the chrome valve cover and the chrome "Under handle" as a set)..are the wrong ones.. (however I bought them a couple of years ago, and only in the last couple of weeks ...or when ever I asked my questions) did I have this problem of "NO Water at all coming from my Hot faucet....and after alot of inspection the "under handle" which has the notches that are supposed to be the same amount as the amount of spines on the stem, aren't the same, and to epoxy glue it at this stage would make it impossible to ever work on or get to it again. And, since my problem seems to be deeper than the "Handles", I still have to have access to the stem, nut, washer, valve seat... ??? I think it's a matter of something causing a block that won't let my water to flow. Are you a plumber? I am dealing with a real problem, and need answers to my previous questions... Ok?

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Thanks for your interest,

If I understand correctly, the washer and screw were down in the faucet and you have removed them. If you removed the stem with the water still on,
The water should be gushing out. There must be something blocking the pipe.

Actually pipes don't get blocked or stopped. Only valves get blocked. Anything in the pipe will move to the next valve and that is where it stops.

I afraid that this has gone beyond what I can diagnose without being there.

Time to call a plumber (or handyman).

Hi again, I have (since last message) managed to achieve some very hopeful success! When I was waiting for you to offer a suggestion, I searched other similar posts, that you had responded to... and decided to 1st do the water shut-off and on again.This produced no debri/ washer blow outs, so I turned water back on, while working on the "H" & I decided to go "Fishing"
. I was able to pull (from the hot water side... yet another domed washer, and in getting to it I had used a large heavy duty flat screw driver,that I dug into the valve seat and pulled it up a bit. When I did that, I heard the water pressure begin! YEAH!! That's when I quickly tried to tighten it back so I could run out to turn water back off.
So, now I needed to deal with what was causing my "C" faucet to have so much water pressure, that I needed to be "Hercules" just to turn it off! A complete opposite problem, which has been an issue before. What I saw in there was/ is a screw (for the washer) and (although it is much smaller that the valve seat hole
And should be easy to grab... ) it is somehow wedged in so well, that I can not get a grip on it, or magnetically get it!! I am thinking that the only way to get it out, will be to deal with a "valve seat replacement" and that in doing that I will be able to get at that screw?? Also, this whole "washer coming loose and causing problems'" thing seemes to be chronic!! Should I use an epoxy in addition to the screw to keep them from coming loose?? Is that something I could do without causing a new problem?? Thanks for the answer about the access panel, sure hope I don't have to go there!

Well at least you have made some progress. I can't imagine any circumstance where a screw and washer could get pushed down into the valve port. Now you are telling me that there was two in there.

The water pressure has nothing to do with how hard the handle is to turn. How hard you tighten the nut around the stem is what is making the handle hard to turn.
The nut not only holds the stem in place it compresses the rubber washer around the stem to keep water from coming out around the stem. You tighten the nut only tight enough to stop any water coming out around the stem.

If you have another washer beneath the seat you will need a seat wrench to remove the seat. Shown below.

Notice that one end has three sizes that are square. The other end has 3 sizes that are hexagon. Shine flash light down in faucet and look at seat. You should see round hole with notches in it. If there are four notches use the square end. If there are more than four use the hexagon end.

When you have completely unscrewed the seat it should come out stuck to the end of the seat wrench. When putting it back in, put the seat on the end of the seat wrench and push it hard enough to make it stick. Then put the seat wrench in that faucet and screw the seat in.

Oh! I forgot to ask you, since I did the install, I have a leak at the handle seats. Should I have used plumber's putty or threading compound before tightening down the nut/ handle assembly? I also learned at my latest "Home Depot" visit, that my stem requires an "H" type handle, not the decorative knob, but the chrome cover part that has the matching notches to my spines on my stem. So, that will help I'm sure. And, if I have to do a valve seat replacement, the threads to it are at the bottom right? Boy, I think we're almost done, after 4 pgs. "WHEW!" please respond to my questions asap. I am so ready to be done!

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if I have to do a valve seat replacement, the threads to it are at the bottom right?

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That is correct.

I think you may have misunderstood me? I don't have a washer stuck under my "C" valve seat. It's a screw, that seems stuck in it, causing the washer to be unable to close onto the seat the way it's supposed to, and making it unable to be tightened enough to prevent it from leaking. I know it's not pressure, it just seems that way. So, the summary is this: the hot side has been cleared of any washers. Screws and is functioning. The cold side has a screw stuck in the valve seat hole. I'm not sure if the seat wrench will be able to fit, with that screw there. Which now begs the question of, my need to get at that screw... and, if I can't from the top, am I going to have to go into the panel... and an answer to the "Gluing of the washer" and the plumber putty thing? Also, I can't believe that someone would just add more washers, without removing the old one and its parts, How stupid!! 3 & a screw on one, and a washer/ with a stuck screw in the other!

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3 & a screw on one, and a washer/ with a stuck screw in the other!

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You want to explain that. Remember I'm not there, I can't see what you see.

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I can't believe that someone would just add more washers, without removing the old one and its parts, How stupid!!

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Are you saying that someone did that?

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. And an answer to the "Gluing of the washer" and the plumber putty thing?

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No, that would be as stupid as putting multiple washers on a stem.

Try to grip the screw with long, needle nose pliers.

I'm saying that I found ( while working on the "H" stem) was :1st a domed and a flat washer melted together and a screw, then I just found another in there which makes 3 total just on that area alone) and after removing them I was able to get water flow back. So, that one is solved. Then the "C" stem area, (which had a problem in the past , I pulled out( I believe 1 or 2 washers, and still have a screw stuck inside of the valve seat stopping the washer from closing the flow. I have new washers and screws on both now, but the "C" side is near impossible to turn off. I'm not sure who added so many washers and screws to my faucets through the years, but someone sure did! Seems like there must be a way to prevent the washers from coming unscrewed like they seem to?

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I'm not sure who added so many washers and screws to my faucets through the years, but someone sure did!

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Well, it wasn't me.

How are you able to post a part of my reply and then show your response to just that part??
If I knew, it would easier for me to do the same, rather than me trying to rephrase the comment in order to answer each part?? Hey, I was just trying to make sure you weren't insinuating that I was the "washer-Bandit."

If I had a pair of needle nose long enough and skinny enough to reach the screw (about 3 1/2 in.) I know I could get it... The skinniest ones I have are too short, and then the handles won't fit... The longest ones reach it but then there's no room to open and close to grab. You know, I haven't tried the plunger... hmm?? So, the problem with my 'C' still persists... but, thanks to you, my friend, I have now a "General working knowledge" of the how's and why's of the " water delivery stem to the faucet". I doubt if you have any idea of how much it means to me. I have ,(due to being "just a girl",) always just been sent away so that "men in my life" could just fix things, and never bother to explain how. Thanks for being patient and sticking with me. Now... this isn't "good-bye", but I don't know when I'll get to that screw, since they both are functioning. I'll let you know my progress, and if you can come up with another idea I might use when I next try to tackle that screw again, I'll sure be watching my e-mail. Ok?