Built the house 21 years ago. On slab. All PVC drain pipe and flange. First floor half bath - replaced original vinyl flooring after a couple of years, stained around base of toilet, some leakage. Replaced floor with tile. Grout lines always wet around toilet. Checked and replaced all tank to bowl hardware no leaks. 3 different plumbers have checked flange, seems OK but one commented that toilet may have pinhole leak so replaced that, still leak. Another commented that whoever plumbed things in didn't use the standard fittings, but thought it still looked OK. All installed various combination of wax rings (doubled up, horn, etc) and felt that it shouldn't leak. Last one said they'd have to jackhammer up the floor if new wax ring didn't fix it. Getting ready to tear up another floor, and I want this to be the last time. Am very handy around the house with just about anything, and have done PVC repairs before. Would be willing to cut and bust out the concrete and do repair below slab if necessary. Comments/advice appreciated.

Hi John

We have some pretty extensive experience around here. If you can post a picture of the flange we can walk you through every step to resolve the issue... ;)

Let me know if this is possible, OK?

Mark

Thanks Mark. It will be a couple of weeks before I pull the toilet and start on the floor replacement, but will post pictures when I do. First time joining this forum and appreciate the quick response.

John

This might be a long shot but one many plumbers miss, Wax rings are designed to contain the water as it discharges, However, if you have a partial blockage that allows the water to back up over the ring for a second and then drain away that would leave water seeping out of the base. Did any 0f the plumbers snake the drain lins when they had the toilet up? Let me know Tom

Another good question. None of the plumbers so far has run a snake through the drain. This line tees (or wyes) into the drain line from the upstairs toilet which runs in the wall behind the toilet. Sometimes you can see the water level in the downstairs bowl fluctuate when someone flushes the toilet in the upstairs. Always wondered if that had something to do with it.

One other thing I considered, our lot slopes all of the way from back to front, and wondered whether with all of the subsurface rock here, whether we have a spring or something that causes the water to seep up around the flange. That's why I considered busting up the concrete to eliminate this possibility. After 21 years of this I'm ready to try about anything!

Hi John

The drain is certainly aomething to look into as you go for sure, but if you want to determine if your water table creeps up high enough to be an issue you can find out pretty quick by drilling into/through the approximately 4"-6" concrete floor with a 1" concrete bit and see if water or wetness shows up at at the hole at any time between now and when you plan on messing with the floor. If the water table is found to be high I would advise you to install a SUMP PUMP and sump pit basin, not tear up the old floor... ;)

Just thinkin' aloud for you as we chat!

Mark

Since we've never noticed any other indoor moisture problems such as damp floors, windows steamed up, etc. I don't think the water table is the problem. At the same time I want to consider all possibilities. Still, that's a good suggestion about drilling a hole in the floor since the new floor would cover it up (after patching of course). Thanks!

John

I don't think it's raising ground water, If your plumbers can find no fault with the wax seal or flange a back up past the seal would give you moisture at the base. Regards, Tom

Finally got a chance to pull the toilet in question. Took up the tile floor also. I took some pictures and uploaded them to photobucket, hopefully they'll be clear enough and display properly. Looking at the flange, it appears to be somewhat warped possibly due to floor being uneven. I would think the variety of wax rings that have been tried would have addressed this.

The flange is different than all of them I've looked at in Home Depot and Lowe's. It looks like the flange is actually a butt joint (if that's the right term) and glued directly to an elbow of some sort. All of them I've looked at in stores is a glued slip fit into a stub of 3" or 4" PVC. I'm not sure how to proceed at his point since it doesn't resemble what I'm familiar with. I hesitate to cut any concrete until I know what I'm dealing with. Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

John

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag70/JohnCinKY/IMG_2712.jpg
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Sorry! I can't pull up your pictures. Perhaps if you ran them as attachments they would come through. Here's how.

How do I add pictures and other file types to my post?
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How do I add pictures and other file types to my post?
A. "Attach" files (including pictures) from your computer. This method puts the attached file below the text of the post.
Click on an Ask or Answer button to ask or answer a question
Compose your question or answer in the window.
Under the window where you composed your question or answer is a section called Additional Options.
Click on the Manage Attachments button: a pop-up dialog will open. NOTE: The Manage Attachments dialog lists the maximum sizes of the various types of files that may be attached.
Click the Browse button to navigate to the image on your computer and double click the file on your computer: this will return you to the dialog window.
Click the Upload button.
Click the link to close the dialog window OR repeat numbers 5 & 6 to attach another image.
B. "Embed" image(s) from the internet. This method inserts an image wherever you wish within the text of your post.
Click the Insert Image icon above the posting window: A pop-up asking for the URL will open.
Enter the URL of the image in the field then click the OK button.
Back to you, Tom

I would start by pulling the screws that hold the flang to the concrete and see if the flange pulls easily off. It almost looks like there is a closet flange under another closet flange with no seal between the two. Maybe they set the original closet flange to low, and just cut the bottom off another flange and set it on top of the original. Hard to say, but something is definatley not right here, and I would bet that it is the cause of your problem. Im really thinking this may be able to be cured without breaking up the concrete, but its hard to say without seeing this thing up close and personal, know what I mean?

One more question. Is the water always around the toilet, or only when you flush? If its only when you flush, that elliminates ground water, or a leak in underground water lines. Keep the info coming as you progress with the project. Very interested to hear what you find. Good luck, and take care.

Tom - thanks for the instructions, we'll see if this works better...

That elbo you speak of is called a closet bend, (see image ) and has its own raiser. Got to tell you, That flange looks cool to me. Something you said grabbed my attention

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Sometimes you can see the water level in the downstairs bowl fluctuate when someone flushes the toilet in the upstairs.

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I smell back pressure and that translates into a partial blockage, Try this for me, Have someone flush the upstairs toilet a few times while you watch the open toilet hole. If you see any water coming back then snake the line using a chain knocker or a drop head auger tip on his snake. I would then reinstall the toilet using a wax ring with a funnel and say a little . Prayer. Let me know if it doesn't leak because if I've hit on the cause it just made my day, Good luck, Tom

Cut off the top of the old flange this morning. A couple of good things noted. No water coming up from below the slab, so no problem with high water table or spring. Ran test that Tom recommended. Had wife turn both sink faucets on, the tub, and then flushed the toilet in the upstairs bathroom, no backup into this line. Could hear the water running like crazy, but no backup to this toilet flange.

Am attaching more pictures, but here is what I found. The joint where the old flange met the street elbow is about 1 3/4" below slab level. The flange seemed to have an outside collar that extended down about 1/2" over the outside of the street elbow. The ID of the elbow is 3". I am hoping that I can find an extended length flange with a 3" OD, leave the old flange stub where it is, clean up the inside of the elbow and glue it in. I'm getting ready to go talk to the master plumber at HD to see what he would recommend, happy to have your opinions too!

John

If that white ring on the slab is what's left of the old flange why hasn't it been removed down to the floor line I agree That your best bet would be a 3" inside DEEP flange but you have to clean up the area first. Good luck. Tom

Tom - no luck finding a deep flange to install at HD or Lowe's. Went online and didn't really find one to work with PVC, only cast iron.

The master plumber at HD said he recommended cutting the slab/concrete and replacing elbow and flange to fix it right. Trying to get an estimate from local plumbers to do the job, nobody has shown up yet. Also kind of get the feeling they don't like to give estimates, they're used to dealing with "it's broke, come fix it". We'll see if any of the 3 call or show up tomorrow. Just out of curiosity, anybody have a ballpark figure on this repair cost? Thanks. John

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The master plumber at HD said he recommended cutting the slab/concrete and replacing elbow and flange to fix it right.

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Unless this "master plumber's" a old retired plumber like me working after he retired I question if he's really a master plumber. I'I've had too much bad advice coming from big box guys to put much faith in their plumbing advice. What we do here is to advise you in the cheapest and easiest way to solve your problem and tearing up your slab and replacing the closet bend isn't one of them.
You have to clean up the old flange down to the slab and go to a Plumbing Supply House and ask for a 3" inside PVC deep flange. (see image) If you can't locate one get back to me and I'll search the web. Good luck. Tom

Tom - that looks exactly like what I had envisioned to fix the problem. I guess I need to expand my search, and it helps that now I know what I need to ask for. Busy tomorrow, but will definitely try to find the time to call around to find a "real" plumbing supply house. Thanks again for the great advice. John

Let me know how you make out. Don't forger primer when you pick up the PVC cement. Good luck, Tom

Tom and John...

I don't think the deep street flange is going to work here because I think the elbow underground is a STREET ELBOW and a street elbow won't mate up with a street flange. If you look at the old flange you'll see that it slips over the elbow fitting. Further, if you look at the cut fittting you can see only about an 1.5" of pipe coming above the elbow... definitely a street elbow as far as I can tell!

In my opinion, John has no choice but to chip up the concrete and replace the elbow, or heat the plastic off the street elbow... can be tricky, but not as difficult as it sounds. Both ways still require breaking up some concrete!

That's my thoughts!

Mark

Hey Mark,
In seem why you think this is a street ell instead of a closet bend, The curve's too close isn't it" I thought it was a closet bend with the stub up cut too short, but hey! A inch and as half of stock, I say it's worth picking up a inside flange and seeing how it fits,. I'd settle for a 1.5" glue joint if it was tight. I'd do that before I ripped up the slab and replaced the ell, And those are my thoughts. Regards, Tom

I see what you're thinking, but it won't be an 1.5" glue joint if you look closely at the tape measure (tape is set into the elbow)...more like a 1/2" to 3/4" MAX glue joint... might work if he hasn't damaged the flange, too much!

Have a great Halloween!

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might work if he hasn't damaged the flange, too much!

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It's a inside flange, What's to damage? I'm just trying to get him past the hassle of ripping up his slab. I think it's worth the gamble. What's to lose? He might have to cut back on the bottom part to get a fit but if he can get a joint he's way ahead of the game. Am I dead wrong on this? Tom

Thanks to all who have provided great advice. After finally getting a plumber to come to the house, and taking a look at the smaller diameter of the inside fit 3" deep flange, my wife and I decided to bite the bullet and pay to have it fixed right (bust concrete/replace below slab & flange). We were afraid that we might trade seepage for frequent toilet back-ups due ot the smaller inside diameter. We expect to live here many more years, and felt the extra expense was worth it. Again, thanks to all who have posted /responded. I have learned more about toilet flanges than I would ever care to know. Have a great day! John

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We were afraid that we might trade seepage for frequent toilet back-ups due ot the smaller inside diameter.

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That wouldn't happen but I think you made the correct decision. Just gave you the easiest option. Good luck, Tom