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Want to discharge a urinal for my basement mancave through the opening of cleanout plug of 4 1/2" cast iron vertical soil pipe / stack line / vent.
Size of plug is 4 1/2".
Is there an common protocol to adapt a drain through a cleanout to the cast iron soil pipe?
Thanks!
If you can find a fitting that will reduce form 4 1/2 inches down to
1 1/2 inches you should be able to connect a urnial up that way
It may not be according to code but who is goind to know and if you ever want to sell your house you can easily do away with the urnial.
Now if you can not find the fitting you need you could always go to a welding shop and take a 4 1/2 brass plug and a 11/2 inch copper male adapter and have the man make you a fittinf like you need.
I hope you have a water supply close. Either that or a big bucket.
I assume l this will be a wall hung urinal?Quote:
Want to discharge a urinal for my basement mancave through the opening of cleanout plug of 4 1/2" cast iron vertical soil pipe / stack line / vent.
Several reasons that this can't be done the way you describe
1) the urinal will have to be vented. You can't simply connect back to the stack.
2) From the floor to the lip of the urinal's about 24" You will have to measure from thew edge of the lip to the center of the drain to get the correct height.
3) You can't use a clean out tee to drain a fixture.
What you're going to hafta do is cut in a sanitary tee at the correct height.( rhe clean out won't be at the correct height ). Then take off a vent, (or a AAV) just after the tee. You will need special instructions on how to cut a fitting into a cast iron stack. Do you wish to take this farther? If so click on back and we'll get into specifics.
Regards, Tom
You're right, this is not a permanent fixture. If I sell the house, it comes down. It will (obviously) not be to code as I'm pretty sure (for starters) a urinal in a residential home isn't even allowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by letmetellu
I'll look for a reducer -- I have a hunch that I'm not going to find it though. I saw in another thread here the idea of a threaded male adapter to a wye section. There was a drawing diagram by Massplumber -- I'll try to repost it here:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attach...shing-machine-
Thanks!
Yep Tom, wallhung.Quote:
Originally Posted by speedball1
I'm trying to avoid the vent or an AAV if possible. Like I said, no codes are being followed but functionality is important.
The urinal is going on a 4.5 inch soil pipe that vents to the roof -- there are 3 of these roof vents in an 1800 square foot house -- which in my amateur opinion, is well vented. Am I right?
There are 2 fixtures above, a shower and a toilet. Nothing will be used simultaneously. The urinal will be used about once a month when I have the knuckleheads over and otherwise will sit dorment.
If the only way is to take a section of cast iron soil pipe out, then the entire idea is going to be scraped. I've been there before and swore I'd never return, heh!
I bought the urinal brand new, in the box, for $15 -- I'll take the hit or just sell it.
Just to give you a general philosophy of what I'm trying to do here, it's like this:
I envision a low-cost, non-permanent, jury-rigged, novelity item that (I'm thinking) should function adequately with minimal "rule" following -- if I'm wrong, let me know, I have a good set of hands, can turn wrenches and sweat pipes but I have zero expertise in plumbing theory.
All and any feedback is welcome!
OK! I understand,
Since most urinals have a integral trap the "P" trap's unnecessary. The AAV, however, is necessary . Also, providing you can adapt a cleanout tee to 2", how do you plan on mounting your urinal? You will pipe 3/4" off the main to a Flush Valve to flush your urinal.
Good luck, Tom
Roger that on the "P" trap -- I should have mentioned that was something I did realize.Quote:
Originally Posted by speedball1
Still don't understand by the AAV is necessary? (and I realize I don't understand much about plumbing theory) With gravity, this thing really won't "flush" without a vent?
To mount the urinal, I'm going to build a short/narrow half-wall out of (leftover) 3/4 plywood and 2 x 4's. It'll be sturdy but also needs to be as close to the stack pipe as possible.
I'm piping from a half inch supply and using an adapter to connect. I have no Flush Valve (too much $$) -- I was thinking about a standard or ball-valve to flush the urinal -- just like in the old days when I was a kid at Yankee Stadium!
So, what do you think? And let me have it, I'm wearing a helmet...
:D:D
Code says you can not discharge a major fixture past a unvented minor one. Having said that it might flush OK and then again the suction caused by the discharge might just lower the water loevel enough for sewer gas to enter your house. Better safe then sorry. Install the AAV.Quote:
Still don't understand by the AAV is necessary? (and I realize I don't understand much about plumbing theory) With gravity, this thing really won't "flush" without a vent?
If by "standard or ball-valve to flush the urinal" You're talking about a wall hung tank,(see image) it works for me. Want to know what I'd do about that clean out adapter? I'd take that old brass cleanout cover, Drill a 2" hole in the center and solder in a 2" Midland Bushing With the threads facing out. You can then screw the plate back in and attach a 2" PVC female threaded adapter in and you have just converted to PVC to complete the drainage. Sound like a plan? Regards, tomQuote:
I'm piping from a half inch supply and using an adapter to connect. I have no Flush Valve (too much $$) -- I was thinking about a standard or ball-valve to flush the urinal -- just like in the old days when I was a kid at Yankee Stadium!
So, what do you think? And let me have it, I'm wearing a helmet...
Now you're talking Tom, thanks! That sounds like a plan! A "midland bushing" is something like this, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by speedball1
http://images.orgill.com/200x200/1168830.jpg
Wall hung tank? No, I'm talking about a inline valve -- off and on. Back in the day, a lot of urinals in public places that were done "on-the-cheap" had of-and-on valves.
My grammar school had them.
Turn it on, let a gallon of water in, clear the bowl -- and turn it off. Mimick what the flush valve does. Something like this soldered into the feed line:
http://www.goodwaterwarehouse.com/cat/9_wpr_bbv.jpg
No good?
Hit me back, thanks.
Works for me! I would install a self closing valve( see the images) instead of just a inline stop. It will save on water and prevent leaving the valve open.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
A 2" brass bushing, such as you pictured will work just dandy.
Good work. Tom
Wow! That's the exact valve that I was talking about/they used in my grammar school, spring loaded type! I didn't even know they existed anymore!Quote:
Originally Posted by speedball1
Will a Home Depot type store have that or is that a plumbing supply house item only? Are they a lot more expensive?
Also, I decided to have a look at the cleanout today, so I started to unscrew it, when D'OH:
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...edeefce7c3.jpg
Just my luck! I guess I'll dremel/chisel it out being careful not to damage the threads -- unless you say different.
Thanks a whole lot Tom, I really appreciate it!
I see you found a way that it could be done, and also you can buy a urnial that does not have a trap built in if you would rather use a urnial spud and a 1 1/2 p-trap.
Not following you let?Quote:
Originally Posted by letmetellu
I already purchased the urinal, $15 bucks, brand new, in the box.
But still, I don't see the advantage of what you describe?
I'm interested.
For the supply line, I had a few of these standard-type copper adapters laying around but I'm not sure if the threads are the same. There was some resistance when trying to tighten it, so I didn't force it, I figured I'd ask the experts first.
Can you tell by looking if these threads should match??
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...54efbf992a.jpg
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...0fff9236a3.jpg
Letmetellu is giving you the option of adding more fittings plus buying another urinal.. Disregard! The two threads should both be compatible with enough wraps of teflon tape.
I thinkyou'll hafta speial order the spring loaded valve. I imagine it will cost more. If you can't locate one I can help.
That brass cover looks ate up. Purchase a new one and go from there. Cheers, Tom
Roger that on the plug, it was me that ate it up while trying to take it off -- already dremeled the old one out and purchased a new one.Quote:
Originally Posted by speedball1
Below are pictures the parts I purchased -- I'm pretty sure this will work. I have 2 inch PVC pipe to fill in the gaps according to my height particulars, use your imagination.
Instead of solder, I plan on JB welding the 2" nipple to the hole that I cutout on the brass cleanout plug.
Please let me know what you think and give me any suggestions you may have, thanks Tom!
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...c89403d5ba.jpg
Im just checking in here to see what the final result is. This is so far off the beaten path, I'm just completely turned around.lol. With what your looking to do ( and don't repeat this to anyone, or I'm afraid they would snatch my plumbing license away so quick it would make my head spin), just go for it. As long as it drains, and is vented(by means of the aav) and doesn't leak, you've got yourself a man cave urinal. Enjoy it, heck for the fifteen bucks you spent on the urinal itself, its worth a try. Let us know how it all works out. Lee.
While I don't know about the JB Weld I'd feela lot better if the bushing were soldered or welded on to the cover. You supply looks like it will work. Is the valve spring loaded?
Lee, (Mygirlsdad) I voiced my concerns in my first post. But What da hell? He came up with a workable drain and vent. It might make a plumbing inspector tear his hair out as he hung a red tag on the job but, bottom line, it works. Cheers Tom
Thanks guys, I really appreciate your advice despite the fact that this is somewhat of a "jury rigged" install -- it makes your help all-the-more valued.
Tom> I'm under the impression that solder won't "grab" the cast iron nipple, that's why I chose the JB Weld (epoxy). I don't have welding or brazing equipment, so that option is out.
This epoxy (JB Weld) formulation has gotten really good -- 10 years ago I'd never consider it but today, I think it'll work. I'll be applying both inside and out.
I checked the local chain hardware stores and two supply houses for the spring loaded supply valve -- no dice. I was told by a few guys that they're "outlawed." I'll go with the ball valve for now and keep searching.
Lee> I'll definitely keep you posted and be sure to post pics of my progress and the completed job.
Along the way, any and all comments (and encouragement) are welcomed and as always, greatly appreciated.
Thanks again!!
++From earlier post***
I see you found a way that it could be done, and also you can buy a urnial that does not have a trap built in if you would rather use a urnial spud and a 1 1/2 p-trap.
Not following you let?
I already purchased the urinal, $15 bucks, brand new, in the box.
But still, I don't see the advantage of what you describe?
I'm interested.
Comments on this post
Give yours Agree Disagree *Required*
This is what I was telling you, when I told you in my first post how you could do what you were wanting to do others said it could not be done, so I just remarked that I see you found a way to do it.
The rest was about a different kind of urnial that does not have an inside trap, I didn't know that you had already bought one.
I glad that you have now have got you a uarnial, Keep it clean they have a tendeny to build up rock in the bottom of them from the minerals in urine.
Hi all...
I wanted to pop in real quick and just state that I am not a fan of connecting into cleanouts in any way. I think connecting into a waste stack via a separate sanitary tee fitting is best, as Tom suggested.
That being said, mancave, I run into situations where people just want to connect it all up much like you are doing here so I drew up a "better than nothing" scenario as you posted earlier.
As I see it, all you present will work just fine for what you are doing. However, I am a bit concerned about the water supply. I'm wondering, ball valve or not, if you should install some kind of a backflow preventer or a vacuum breaker... hmmm..? Thinkin' we don't want any urinal water to backflow into your home drinking water.
I'm figurin' that may be why you can't find the spring loaded type shutoff too easily... no backflow prevention... ;)
Anyway, Tom, Milo, Lee... what are your thoughts on backflow here?
Thanks guys...
MARK
Mark, you brought up probably the most important factor, which is the vac breaker on the water supply. Good catch. However, I still see ball valves controlling water to urinals in some of the old bars in my town, makes me wonder if the inspector is getting free beer for life or what. The thing about water supply is if its not done properly, you don't only affect your own house, but can potentially contaminate other peoples water. So yes, a vac breaker is really something you should add to the water feed of the urinal.
Mancave, the threads on top of the urinal do not match the threads of the copper female adapter you are planning to use(however it may work with enough teflon). They are not tapered threads. The threads on top of the urinal are for a rubber gasket seal. This is were the vacuum breaker tailpiece would connect to the urinal when using a flushometer.
The thing is, I have a feeling you are going to do what you are going to do, and by all means, have at it. Just keep in mind that there really is a reason for codes, we don't push them for the fun of it, we do it for safe and sanitary living for all.
That being said, do as you will do, and enjoy that pisser. Lee.
Thanks Mark, \I shoudda thought of that!
Thanks guys for the input.
If the consensus is that the vacuum breaker is a "must have," then I ought to go for it.
I may be killing two birds with one stone as I have to find a way to connect to the threaded supply fitting on the urinal anyway.
I don't know any other way to connect the supply, so that is my next question anyway.
Also, I assumed that when the urinal is flushed, the water "waterfalls" down the backwall until there is enough to break the trap/bowl reserve. If that is in fact the case, is it even possible that this thing could backflow?
Thanks again guys, your expertise is invaluable.
Hi all:
If I remember correctly, if you use 6-8 wraps of teflon tape on that urinal spud (connector on top of urinal) you can probably pull off installing that copper female adapter. The threads don't quite match, but it should just work. Just be sure to PRESOLDER the adapter before you try to install it onto the spud.
Otherwise, for $98.00 (sloan regal186) you can order a urinal FLUSHOMETER, which coincidentally has a vacuum breaker integral to the unit, and that will fix everything up real nice. And come on, if you are looking for that MANCAVE feeling you really want the flushometer feel and flush... don't you... hmmm?? :)
Check it out here:
FlushoMeter Urinal Valves
Finally, the vacuum breaker is required because you have a CROSS CONNECTION between a waste fixture and drinking water. ALL fixtures have these... even most faucets today... you just don't see them.
Back to you...
MARK
Heh! Yeah, it would be cool to have a giant, chromed-out flush handle.
Then again, there's also something very mancave-ish about a rustic/improvised ball-valve setup too -- as long as my knuckle-headed friends don't try to use their feet to flush it, LOL!
The beauty of this is that, even after it's in use, it will continue to be a work-in-progress. Sooner-or-later, I'll run into a flush valve and can always add it at that time.
The supply line I'm tapping into runs between the second, upstairs bathroom sink and toilet. I'm sure there is no vac breaker on either one -- maybe it's something I should add to those too.
The basement room itself is unfinished - well, half finished. It was a finished basement when I purchased the house but because of pre-existing water damage and subsequent mildew (house was vacant for 7 years), I had to remove everything but the framing.
I had big plans on building a glamorous studio/jam room but after I set up my drums, amps/guitars, PA and started using it, the sound was so good I didn't want to change anything.
Plus, it's kind of nice not to worry about spilled beer or dropped cigars. I tell my friends they can act like the slobs that they are, LOL!
So, I'm not so sure that the room deserves an expensive flush valve just yet, heh!
Thanks for the advice, info and links, much appreciated!!
Just for a reference, here's a couple of views of the room "in action"
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...7a4da0abb8.jpg
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...0a212cf548.jpg
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...3e2dfaf748.jpg
Had a little extra time today so I got a little done:
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...2ed984a7f9.jpg
Tom> Here's the JB Weld -- it's strong. I was able to turn the nipple with a strap wrench to tighten the plate -- it didn't budge.
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...f59f43e599.jpg
Thanks again to all!
Thanks for the pics. Looks like a good time. Make sure to anchor that drain pipe good and solid so it doesn't put too much force on the drain connection when tightening the flange bolts.
Also, as to the vac breaker situation, you can use one of these between the ball valve and the urinal spud(see pic). You can find them for less than fifty bucks. However, they sometimes will drip a bit of water every time the ball valve is turned on and off. Just another option.
HELP!
I have a bit of an emergency -- I have a small leak in between the (adpated) cleanout plug and the threaded cast iron opening of the stack line. I used teflon tape on it, maybe I didn't use enough?
Maybe it needs thread dope? I've never used dope before (no pun intended) but the cast iron opening doesn't seem like it has very tight tolerences or maybe was casted slightly out-of-round??
On the bright side, it's definitely NOT leaking on the epoxy "weld" or the nipple-to-PVC connection, whew!
Please let me know what to do, thanks!
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...f59f43e599.jpg
Brass to cast iron can be tricky as the threads are large compared to most we work with.
Two fixes here:
1) install that JB weld around the leaking joint and be done with it.
2) cut the pipe, spin the brass cap out and wrap with 10 wraps of teflon tape followed by some pipe dope. Then reinstall and you should be all set, for sure!
Lookin' good otherwise!
MARK
Thanks MARK!Quote:
Originally Posted by massplumber2008
I don't need to cut any pipe because I listened to you guys and didn't do the final PVC glue-ing in key spots, so I can still take it apart -- so, I'll go for the tape and dope option.
Much appreciated!
Making progress, a few pics to those who were wondering.
Thanks again guys, I'll probably finish today!
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...219ac8a477.jpg
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...68e5462d4f.jpg
A look at the "guts" behind the new half-wall:
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...0669beda82.jpg
I posted these follow-up pics at the end of my original thread but it didn't "bump."
So, it's done and it works great!
Thanks to all for your help and encouragement -- I couldn't have done it without you!
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...219ac8a477.jpg
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...68e5462d4f.jpg
A look at the "guts" behind the new half-wall:
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/...0669beda82.jpg[/
We're proud of you. Have a blast! Tom
OMG.. .
That is *SO* wrong on *SO* many levels.. .
All those code violations -- And yet you bothered to use treated plywood.
>shrugs<
Well, if it's going to be a permanent fixture, then do yourself a favor and brush several coats of Benite on to the plywood before the permanence of Uric acid (and its stench) has a chance to set in.
A urinal cookie would be a nice touch as well.
If you had been following along with the original thread, which obviously you were not, this is not going to be inspected or to code -- it's intended to NOT be a permanent fixture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Widdershins
Economy and functionality were the goals from the beginning.
As stated, the wall was built from "leftover" plywood and 2 x 4's. I'm pretty confident that none of my friends are going to piss on the wall -- so, I'm not much worried about any stenches occurring.
Who asked you anyway? Mind your business. It works great, that all that matters.
:D::eek::D
I followed the thread from start to finish, noting the many misgivings and reservations of those who walked you through the installation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancave
That it isn't going to be inspected and that you willfully ignored even the most basic advice of installing a vacuum breaker to protect the potable water supply from cross contamination doesn't make this any less of an abomination.
Yeah, I picked up on that right away.Quote:
Economy and functionality were the goals from the beginning.
So the treated plywood was just dumb luck, eh? Good luck, but dumb luck nonetheless.Quote:
As stated, the wall was built from "leftover" plywood and 2 x 4's. I'm pretty confident that none of my friends are going to piss on the wall -- so, I'm not much worried about any stenches occurring.
As for urine making its way to the wall -- I've played in bands for most of my life and I can guarantee you the wall is going to get peed on.
Do yourself a favor and spend the five or ten bucks on a can of Benite or similar sealer and seal the plywood.
D00d, it's a free forum.Quote:
Who asked you anyway? Mind your business.
Y'know, I wouldn't have said anything at all if you had, at a minimum, spent the 15 or 20 bucks it would have cost to buy a vacuum breaker.Quote:
It works great, that all that matters.
And just like all of your other assumptions, you're quite sure that I didn't? You know what they say about those that "assume." In this case, it's just you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Widdershins
An indication of the respect your friends have for you maybe? Like I said, I'm not worried.Quote:
Originally Posted by Widdershins
Good then, I guess I'm free to call your mother a whore? Naw, I won't -- my ego isn't that small.Quote:
Originally Posted by Widdershins
But she could have at least taught you the adage, "if you don't have anything nice to say..."
Maybe you could come over for a jam sometime -- we have a urinal AND a back alley -- the back alley would probably be good for you.
:p
Well, it's now 2 years later and if anyone is wondering, the urinal has and still is running perfectly and has been a true asset and a hit by all standards.
Just dropped in to say there is no pee on the wall... or the floor or anywhere but in the bowl. Heh!
But the real reason I dropped back in was to again thank speedball1 aka Tom for his expertise, advice and encouragement and to acknowledge what an all-around quality individual he is and to cite the kindness he showed to me -- the world is certainly a better place because of people like Tom.
Special tip-of-the-hat to mygirlsdad77 / lee as well.
This is a great site, none better.
Thanks guys!
I should really correct myself -- it's nearly THREE years later.
(Man, times flies! )
Thanks for those kind words. We're just happy wee could help, Tom and the guysQuote:
But the real reason I dropped back in was to again thank speedball1 aka Tom for his expertise, advice and encouragement and to acknowledge what an all-around quality individual he is and to cite the kindness he showed to me -- the world is certainly a better place because of people like Tom.
Special tip-of-the-hat to mygirlsdad77 / lee as well.
This is a great site, none better.
Thanks guys!
No offense guys, but mancave needs to go back and reread this thread! It was me that did the original drawing (post #4), it was me that tried to talk him into installing a vacuum breaker to protect him and his family's health (he didn't listen) and it was me that walked him through some tough steps, for sure!
I don't even get a mention! Go figure, huh?
With that being said, my feelings aren't hurt in any way (could really care less)... just amazed that I didn't even get a mention here! LOL!!
My bad MARK / massplumber2008!
I didn't forget you and truly appreciate your input back then. Terrible oversight on my part. And knew before I posted above that I needed to mention you but somehow forgot. I actually have your drawing in the folder with the "master plans" and progress pictures for this project.
I think early Alzheimer's is setting in.
3 years and counting of perfect service from this urinal.
Thank you sir.
No problem.. I appreciate you taking a minute to come back and say so!
Thank you!
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