Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Your Delta valve has seats and springs instead of a cartridge. Perhaps the hot water pipes were disturbed or you have mineral build up in the heater but the hot water seat is blocked in both valves.
To access the valve, remove the handle and the face plate. You should see screwdriver stops where the water enters the valve. If not turn off the water. Now unscrew the bonnet nut and pull out the stem unit assembly. This will expose the seats and springs. Remove them and check the opening for crud or blockage. Now, while the valve is open) turn on the hot water and flush out the supply line. You should have a full stream. If so, reassemble. If not then the blockage is further downstream and you may have to call in outside help. Good luck, Tom

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I seem to have the same problem in one of my showers! I presumed that it was due to hard water crud but as I was unable to get to the guts of the plumbing, I have been not been able to do anything with it! I don't really know what brand of shower valve or shower head it is! I am attaching a picture of the valve here. Could some one identify the manufacturer? Here is the head. Please note that I have not been able to get behind the wall.

Any help will be appreciated. Thanks bagchip

Hi Bagchip:

Looks like a GROHE thermostatic mixing valve to me... see similar Grohe faucet below... German made... ;) Parts will be available ONLY through a plumbing supply house or online.

Remove the handle and then the rest of the parts SPIN off counterclockwise.

Let us know how you make out... O.K.?

MARK

Is this it?
Remove the handle: How?
Rest of the parts SPIN off counterclockwise: Shall try!
Thanks a lot!

Whatever is in the very center of the handle... is it a chrome cap (?)... that needs to be pried up using a little flat screwdriver and that should reveal the screw holding the handle in place.

Otherwise, I would need to check to find out how to remove this by looking at Grohe spec. sheet and even then I can't promise.

See if you can run down a spec. sheet at the Grohe website:

GROHE - Why GROHE?

A call and an e-mail with that picture should also help them to get information to you pretty quickly... ;)

Let me know what you discover as you go.

Thanks...

MARK

Whatever is in the very center of the handle... is it a chrome cap (?)... that needs to be pried up using a little flat screwdriver and that should reveal the screw holding the handle in place. --- Done that. I shall turn the screw counterclockwise and see how I do and let you know.

Thanks MARK

I shall turned the screw counterclockwise and the valve handle came off! Those Germans, smart s of g's! Now the scene is as this. Iguess, I do the following: Turn the H&C water off in the basement. What next? Do I just play with it, until I figure it out?
You know MARK, you are a good teacher!

I'm glad to help...

That picture is real fuzzy so can't be 100% sure, but yeah, turn off the hot/cold water to the valve and then discharge the pressure by opening the valve. Then you can try to remove the chrome, etc. by loosening all counterclockwise.

There may also be a clip involved.

If you can clear up the pic. I may be able to tell you more...

MARK

..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

I'm glad to help....

That picture is real fuzzy so can't be 100% sure, but yeah, turn off the hot/cold water to the valve and then discharge the pressure by opening the valve. Then you can try to remove the chrome, etc. by loosening all counterclockwise.

There may also be a clip involved.

If you can clear up the pic. I may be able to tell you more....

MARK

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Yes, that is a bad picture! Here is a better one MARK.

I have also been busy. I contacted GROHE. Evan Thomas, in their SC identified the valve controller and sent me a cleaning procedure. Evan was very helpful. He also told me that I would need a 24mm socket to take the nut out. So, I got a metric set from Harbor.
Mark also told me to pry off the various rings, washers, control rings etc. and then take the bolt off. Except all these seems to be stuck so strongly that I have not been able to take them off yet. The temperature controlling ring seems to go around but I have not been able to pry it forward with a screw driver.

Do you think that drops warm vinegar solution could be used to dissolve the calcium?

***Please rate my answer by clicking on the scales on the upper right corner***

Where do I click?

Click on the orange button "Rate this Answer" in Marks Response.

Looks like you remove the handle by removing the nut in the center.

Hey hey bagchip...

Most every Grohe faucet I've worked on has assembled/disassembled differently so this one is a bit tricky!

Have you loosened the screw in the middle of the nut... that is another screw I see there... yes? Try that first. Then try loosening the nut using a socket wrench and ratchet driver.

Otherwise, see if Grohe can send you a specification sheet on this valve... we can tell you how to finish this then for sure!

Sorry it's not easier...

MARK

PS: I'll see if Milo can pop in and look at this... he's worked with quite a few like this I believe... ;)

Have you loosened the screw in the middle of the nut...that is another screw I see there...yes??
Yes, I have. After about 1 1/2 count clock turn it stops with no loosening!
Try that first. Then try loosening the nut using a socket wrench and ratchet driver.
The lip on the last ring is big enough to prevent a 14mm deep socket to be inserted!
Otherwise, see if Grohe can send you a specification sheet on this valve...we can tell you how to finish this then for sure!
[I shall call GROHE tomorrow about the specs.
PS: I'll see if Milo can pop in and look at this...he's worked with quite a few like this I believe...
Sounds good! Thanks, bagchip

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bagchip

Have you loosened the screw in the middle of the nut...that is another screw I see there...yes??
Yes, I have. After about 1 1/2 count clock turn it stops with no loosening!
Try that first. Then try loosening the nut using a socket wrench and ratchet driver.
The lip on the last ring is big enough to prevent a 14mm deep socket to be inserted!
Otherwise, see if Grohe can send you a specification sheet on this valve...we can tell you how to finish this then for sure!
[I shall call GROHE tomorrow about the specs.
PS: I'll see if Milo can pop in and look at this...he's worked with quite a few like this I believe...
Sounds good! Thanks, bagchip

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It should be a 24mm deep socket!

If Milo doesn't pop by I'll stop by my supplier in the AM and see if they can help us here. I could keep guessing, but we could damage the valve and we don't want that, for sure!

I seem to be forgetting something here..?

Talk soon...

MARK

I am worried about damaging it too. Never thought that it could be so tricky. Current GROHE folks are probably not old enough to have worked on this model! The initial installation was was probably done 18 years ago! I am the second owner of the house. The previous owner was very good about keeping all records, but I could not find any for this shower valve!

bagchip

Excuse the timeliness of my response to this question...

Yes, I am very familiar with this unit. Mark correctly identified it, it is Grohe product. More specifically, it is old GroheMix model # 34.434.000 unit. It is still considered to be a great faucet. It used to be top-of-the-line valve in the early 80's. However, this line has been discontinued for few years now. It has been replaced with GroheTemp valves. You can still purchase replacement cartridges from professional plumbing supply house. It will run you about $60.00.I would not advise you to try to replace O-rings and other washers on the stem. There are many interior parts you cannot easily get to. I would not even recommend to attempt to "clean" it. I would suggest that you get new stem, put it in and you are set for the next 20 years.

I noticed you are not disassembling the faucet the way you should. Follow these instruction:
1. Remove screw cap
2. Remove screw
3. Remove handle
4. Remove TEMPERATURE LIMIT RING
5. Remove eschutcheon with sleeve
And now...
6. take that socket wrench and remove the THERMOELEMENT CARTRIDGE

Take new cartridge, apply supplied Grohe grease on the body of the cartridge and carefully insert it in. Do not force it. It has to nicely slide in. Now, proceed with installing the parts you have removed - but in reverse order.

You will have to play for few minutes with adjusting water temperature so it corresponds with marks on the temp-dial. Here you have to be patient and follow installation instruction supplied with the cartridge.

I am enclosing exploded view of the stem and list of parts for your reference.

Good luck... Let me know how you did... Milo

Thanks for your attention Milo. I am sure that I am not doing it right!

1. Remove screw cap
You mean Pos. No. 1.1? - Done
2. Remove screw
You mean Pos. No. 1.2? - Done
3. Remove handle
You mean Pos. No. 1? - Done
4. Remove TEMPERATURE LIMIT RING
You mean Pos. No. 2? HOW? Please elucidate.
5. Remove eschutcheon with sleeve
What do you mean by Sleeve and HOW?
And now...
6. take that socket wrench and remove the THERMOELEMENT CARTRIDGE
I can not do it til I remove the TEMPERATURE LIMIT RING!

How do I remove the TEMPERATURE LIMIT RING? That is what I think I need to do now! I need to achieve this before I proceed any further!

Thanks, bagchip

Your procedure, Milo, is close to GROHE Cleamup Procedure.

Can you tell me "What is the handle Screw?"


Integrated Grohmix clean out
1) Remove escutcheon screws rotate 90 degrees and with a regular head screw driver
Close the water stops.
2) Remove thermo handle by unscrewing end cap counterclockwise and removing handle
Screw.
3) Remove temperature limit ring and retaining circlip and pull off lever assembly,
Once done remove the two pan head screws from the ends of the yoke plate and
Pull off yoke assembly.
4) Now with a 17mm socket remove both stop valves and with a 24mm wrench remove
The thermo element.











5) Clean and flush off both stop valves and the thermo cartridge

6) Once all is cleaned and relubricated reinstall stop valves and thermo cartridge.



7) Before using the valve you will need to calibrate the temperature, this is done by

Turning the water on and having the scale handle removed measure the temperature

With a thermometer turn the brass cone on the cartridge until the temperature reads

100 degrees and hold there, once done install the handle with the 100 degrees

In the 12:00 position.

BagChip, Look at #2 in exploded view. I think you did not remove that one. I think you unscrew it. That is what actually holds the entire cartridge in. You will not be able to remove the cartridge unless #2 is out.

Handle screw is what you list in your last post under #2

I suggest that you remove the oval trim plate , too. It is held in by two long screws. This way, you will have better access to the other parts mentioned above. If your faucet is set too deep, or if you happen to have extension kit installed, you may not even see the body sleeve. It would be buried deep inside the wall. Remove the trim, it will by much easier for you to work on it...

Excuse me... but what's the problem with your existing cartridge ? Not enough hot water ?

Look at #2 in exploded view. I think you did not remove that one. You unscrew it. That is what actually holds the entire cartridge in.
Handle screw is what you list in your last post under #2

I removed the screw that held the handle and I thought that it is part 1.2. I removed it, which allowed me to remove the handle. Under the handle is semiconical part that is held by another screw! This one I could not remove and I think is holding the TEMPERATURE LIMIT RING. How do I remove this screw. It is visible in the picture of the valve I provided.

Excuse me... but what's the problem with your existing cartridge ? Not enough hot water ?
No hot water is coming through. That is why I went through all this! I think you got it. I was under the impression that hard water crud has jammed everything up!

Thanks, bagchip

That conical part ( the middle of the stem) is your temperature control. It turns independently within the stem itself. You don't remove it. Leave it as it is.

Is that screw on side of that conical part or in the middle / inside of it ?

Can you snap clearer and closer photo ? Also from 45 degree view ? Put your camera on Macro


Ok, there may be different solution to your problem. These valves had notorious problem with the handle not holding tight on that conical part. As you keep adjusting hot/cold water, it slowly slipped towards cold water side cutting your hot water in the process. After some time, you will end up with no hot water. You will have to remove the handle, readjust the conical stem - and you have hot water again. Please, do this test for me:

1. Turn water on with the lever handle. Do not install the Temperature Control Knob/handle. Let water flow through shower head
2. Take small channel locks and turn that conical part all the towards hot water, as far as it goes. Let it run for few minutes. See if you get hot water.

Let me know if it worked...

That conical part ( the middle of the stem) is your temperature control. You don't remove it. Leave it as it is.

It is still there. I tried to turn it count clock. After 1 1/2 turn it became stuck and is there. OK I will not remove it!

Is that screw on side of that conical part or in the middle / inside of it ?

There are two tiny screw holes on opposite sides of the cone. One of the hole had a tiny screw, which I removed to take a look and the other screw tap did not have any screw at all!

Can you snap clearer and closer photo ? Also from 45 degree view ? Put your camera on Macro

If my description is not sufficient, let me know, I shall try to take some pictures tomorrow. I am afraid, I have never been able to take any good picture at MACRO setting.

Ok, there may be different solution to your problem. These valves had notorious problem with the handle not holding tight on that conical part. As you keep adjusting hot/cold water, it slowly slipped towards cold water side cutting your hot water in the process.

This happened slowly! So, I think that you are right!

After some time, you will end up with no hot water. You will have to remove the handle, readjust the conical stem - and you have hot water again. Please, do this test for me:

1. Turn water on with the lever handle. Do not install the Temperature Control Knob/handle. Let water flow through shower head
2. Take small channel locks and turn that conical part all the towards hot water, as far as it goes. Let it run for few minutes. See if you get hot water.

Let me know if it worked...

I shall try this experiment tomorrow. I cannot promise any result as last time I checked the cone is locked tight!
What do you mean by "channel locks" ?

Can you snap clearer and closer photo ? also from 45 degree view ? Put your camera on Macro

Picture From Top See the screw.

Picture From Bottom Observe no screw in the screw tap!

I shall try to do the experiment you suggested tomorrow once you clarify what "channel locks" means!

However, you might be interested in the observation I made earlier when before I started dismantling the valve. The lever that controls water pressure, @ 12 o'clock produced no water flow. At 6 o'clock had maximum flow. However moving the temperature control ring provided no hot water at any position of the temperature ring. This supports your thought that the hot water supply is completely shut off. I thought that this was due to calcium deposit.

Thank you for new pics...

Just in case: I hope you are doing all this work with water supply Turned Off... If not, than Turn water off.

Remove the front ring. See the blue arrow. Don't do anything with those small screws. The have nothing to do with removing the stem. We will get to them later... You have to remove that trim piece. Once out, remove the ring behind it, with elongated mark at 12 o'clock. Remove handle. Now, remove cartridge.

I think it is screwed in. Give it a close look on the inside. Do you see threads? If yes, then try to unscrew it. If you see lots of notches all around the perimeter then it could be only slipped in. I see some calcification bet. The stem and trim so it won't be easy to remove it. Be patient. You can use small flat screwdriver and hammer and gently help it a bit.

The volume control handle should swing from 3 o'clock - through 6 o'clock - to 9 o'clock.

Just in case: I hope you are doing all this work with water supply Turned Off... If not, than Turn water off.
I turn it off when I work on the valve.

Remove the front ring. See the blue arrow.
We are finally on the same page! That's what I have been trying to do for the last several days! The thing wont budge. It seems to be stuck, probably calcium crud.

Don't do anything with those small screws.
Remember, we have just 1 screw, the one on the top. There was no screw on the bottom hole! May I enquire as to what is the function of these screws?

I think it is screwed in. Give it a close look on the inside. Do you see threads? If yes, then try to unscrew it. If you see lots of notches all around the perimeter then it could be only slipped in. I see some calcification bet. the stem and trim so it won't be easy to remove it. Be patient. You can use small flat screwdriver and hammer and gently help it a bit.
Are you talking about the front ring? Shall give it a try!

The volume control handle should swing from 3 o'clock - through 6 o'clock - to 9 o'clock.
Right now, it goes from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock only!?!

PS:

The bottom picture does show that the font ring is indeed mounted on slots!

The small screws in the conical stem are there to hold the adjustment of that stem ( hot water temperature ) in place. They have two screws but one should be adequate... Here is where I hope the conical stem wasn't pushed out of alignment cutting off hot water. If this is true than all the work you are doing is for nothing...

In the first photo I see threads. When I look at the second photo, I see notches, no threads. I am unable to tell from the 2nd photo whether these notches hold the #2 ring in place or the ring behind it. You have to visually inspect it and find out how is each ring held in place. Then, proceed with removal of the ring...

Do you plan on installing brand new stem... or do you just want to clean it and reinstall the old one ?

Success at last! The front ring is off! It really came off quite easy! May be it had softened down form the work over last night! Ant way, congrats Milo!
Here is the new problem
http://bagchi.info/temp/CIMG1509.JPG
I have unscrewed the cartridge cover with the nut. It's loose but it won't come off easily. Do I just pull it out? How much force would be needed? The volume ring seems pretty tight.

In the first photo I see threads. When I look at the second photo, I see notches, no threads. I am unable to tell from the 2nd photo whether these notches hold the #2 ring in place or the ring behind it. You have to visually inspect it and find out how is each ring held in place. Then, proceed with removal of the ring...

I shall study it carefully next.

Do you plan on installing brand new stem....or do you just wanna clean it and reinstall the old one ?

Since I am learning how to do it, second time would be easy. So, we can try with the old stem, but if it does not work too well we can redo with a brand new one. What would be the cost and where can I buy? Well, It was used it for 18 years. It has done well. Let's try with the old one and see.

Milo, you have done well!!!!

PS: I messed up the image, how do I correct it? Thanks!

Congratulations!. but we are not done, until the cartridge is out. Now unscrew the cartridge, take large channel locks, grab it by the conical stem - and pull it out - straight towards you. It will have some resistance, since it sits on few stiff O-rings. Once you take it out - you are done. Please, keep me updated...

For My Info: was that #2 ring Screwed in or did it sit over the notched part of the stem ? Thank you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bagchip

PS: I messed up the image, how do I correct it? Thanks!

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Image is too big. You have to reduce it first before you post it. When you reduce it, the longer side should be about 400. Or, photograph it on VGA or 1 or 2 MP. This way, you can post it directly.

Now I see the latest image: As I said, unscrew it, grab it real well - and pull straight out towards you as hard as you can - but in continuous motion. You are almost done...

Got the rest of it out! Pic1, Pic2.

The brass nut thing is loose but it won't come out. The two screws on the wall, I suppose controls the cold and hot water volumes. They are rusty and could not move them with a screw driver. Have to try it again

The white arrows point to hot/cold Service Stops. They also may be clogged up with debris. Also, make sure they are fully open. Red arrow points to missing grout in your tile. Fill that space so you don't have leaks.

Now unscrew the cartridge, take large channel locks, grab it by the conical stem - and pull it out - straight towards you. It will have some resistance, since it sits on few stiff O-rings. Once you take it out - you are done.

I am worried that this might squish the soft brass pat. I shall give it a mild treatment and see what happens!

Image is too big. You have to reduce it first before you post it. When you reduce it, the longer side should be about 400. Or, photograph it on VGA or 1 or 2 MP. This way, you can post it directly.

Got you! Thanks!

The white arrows point to hot/cold Service Stops. They also may be clogged up with debris. Also, make sure they are fully open. Red arrow points to missing grout in your tile.

I have been able to loosen the service stops. I get the feel that there is no control in them. Are they there to hold the plastic chamber?

As far as the red mark in the tile, it is not missing grout but a scrape in the tile glaze. The tile clay is red.

I was able to take out the cartridge. There seems to be a lot of calcium crud. I am soaking it in mild vinegar. This will not hurt the cartridge, I suppose? Is there some kind of grease that I can use to put Humpty Dumpty back?

I really do not understand in detail how this gizmo works. How do I know that it would work if I just physically screw it back?


For My Info: was that #2 ring Screwed in or did it sit over the notched part of the stem?

It just slides over, there are no notches on the inside surface.
Well back to work again.

Here is the cartridge.

You did very well ! I am glad you've managed to do it on your own. Congratulations !

The stop can be either screw-like ( will close by turning it several times clockwise) or only half turn stops ( slot in horizontal position indicates water is open, in vertical position water is closed). Yes, they turn very easily...

That cartridge has five O-rings. You should get non-petroleum based plumber's grease, lubricate the O-riings and all threads, and slip it back. Do not worry, it will work. But, you will have to do the temperature adjustment as per instructions. Here you will have to deal with that small screw on the conical end of the stem you acquired about few posts back...

Some Disturbing Observations

While the parts remained submerged in 10% [diluted] white vinegar solution overnight, I made the following observations.

With H & C waters turned off and the H & C water stops turned off there was a small flow of water through the plastic socket for the cartridge!
Then I opened both the H & C water supply. As expected, the small flow water from the plastic socket remained the same.
Then I opened the H and then the C water stops. The water flow still remained the same! Shouldn't it increase?

It is very possible that the stops are not functioning properly. It should not be a problem as long as they are not clogged. It they are clogged than you will have to disassemble them and clean them.