Ask Me Help Desk - Whole House Trap.PVC?

Whole House Trap.PVC?

My town requires a whole house trap... do they make it in PVC or only cast iron. I went to a local plumbing supply and was told its only made in cast iron. I need to run a section of cast iron under the foundation but I was hoping to avoid connecting cast iron. Is connecting cast iron doable by a first timer if I had to or would I need to get a plumber.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/u.../housetrap.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by adkhkr

My town requires a whole house trap...do they make it in PVC or only cast iron. I went to a local plumbing supply and was told its only made in cast iron. I need to run a section of cast iron under the foundation but I was hoping to avoid connecting cast iron. Is connecting cast iron doable by a first timer if I had to or would I need to get a plumber.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/u.../housetrap.jpg

You can makeyour own 4" running trap out of a 4" PVC return bend and two 4" PVC Street Ells, (see image) Good luck, Tom

Thanks Tom. If I wanted to have cleanouts on the house trap, can I put Ts on both end of the return bend instead of Street Ells?

Obviously this is a local issue, but would there be a reason why a PVC main house trap would be unacceptable or undesirable compared to a cast iron one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by adkhkr

Thanks Tom. If I wanted to have cleanouts on the house trap, can I put Ts on both end of the return bend instead of Street Ells?

Obviously this is a local issue, but would there be a reason why a PVC main house trap would be unacceptable or undesirable compared to a cast iron one?

Yes! You cold use tees and bring then to grade with a cleanout. PVc/cast iron? A running trap's a running trap. There should be no reason a PVC running trap would be "unacceptable". Good luck, Tom

One last question before I go to the supply house... what type of PVC should I use... Sch 40, Sch 80, the green stuff?

Thanks.

Brad

Quote:

Originally Posted by adkhkr

One last question before I go to the supply house...what type of PVC should I use...Sch 40, Sch 80, the green stuff?

Thanks.

Brad

Hey Brad,
Your sewer should be schedule#40 and that's what I'd use. Good luck, Tom

So I went to the plumbing supply house and picked up a 4" PVC return bend as suggested. Below is a picture of it... which side of the bend goes where or does it not matter? As you can see, one side has more of a radius on it than the other one.

My other question is that they didn't have straight 90 degree T's, all they had was Wye T's. The ones where one of the inlets comes into the T with a radius on it. Can you use these or should I shop around and find 90 degree T's?

Thanks.

Brad

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/u...0718091241.jpg

The return bend looks just fine. Ask for a couple of 4" PVC Sanitary Tees and two 4"PVC cleanouts, (see images) They should get you going. Don't forget PurplePrimer and PVC Cement. Good luck, Tom

Tom,

Thank you very much for your help. When I was talking the guy at the plumbing store he mentioned that the only reason it is required to have cast iron through the house is because of structural reasons if it runs through the foundation. Seeing how my waste pipe is going to run under the footing this is a non-issue. Although its not going to be inspected, I want to do properly and to code so I decided to do it with a 5' section of cast iron under the footing.

I would much rather have an all PVC waste system and eliminate the 5' section of cast iron. The guy at the plumbing store was talking about cast iron rusting out and the thought of digging this out in the future to replace it makes me nervous.

I was thinking of putting the PVC under the footing in a cast iron/steel sleeve, what do you think about this? I can't see how this method could be rejected because its seems like a good solution, at least to me.

Why should you have to "sleeve" anything if it's going under the footers and not through anything? That doesn't make sense. So whadda you going to sleeve? Inquiring minds want to know! Cheers, tom

It does sound stupid to sleeve something that doesn't need to be. Maybe I should just use PVC

I would just run it under the footers. If you're not going to run it through a foundation what's to sleeve? Cheers, tom

I have another question... do I run the white Sch 40 PVC under the footer or the Green Pipe that comes in 13foot lengths? I was told that the "Green Pipe" is used outdoors to connect to the septic system. He said that its stronger than Sch 40 and that's why its used outdoors, which confuses me because the pipe seems to have a lot of give unlike Sch 40.

My concern is that the pipe will eventually be covered by a patio. I need the strongest pipe under this, is that green stuff going to hold up?

I don't have any experience with "Green PVC" but from what I can read up it's more of a environmental issue then one of strength. I would go with Schedule #40 throughout. Good luck, Tom

Here is the code for the outside pipe:

The sewer line from the building cast-iron pipe to the septic tank and to the leaching pool(s) shall meet or exceed commercial standards class 2400 sewer pipe, or ASTM standards for plastic sewer pipe with a minimum SDR 35 rating.

Does Sch 40 meet this requirement?

The code also says "There shall be a lenght of cast-iron sewer line extending through the foundation to a point a minimum of two feet beyond the foundation wall.

It says "through" the foundation wall. No mention about going under the foundation wall.

We have never had a problem with schedule #40 PVc meeting ASTM Standards.
I read, "through the foundation " to read just that. I would check with your Building Department to be sure but forcing you to sleeve or convert to cast iron when you're not going "through" anything doesn't make much sense. But then again I've run into bunches of codes I consider senseless. Regards, Tom

So I have installed the PVC under the footing and connected the main house trap that I built with PVC fittings. My next question is what type of fitting the main fresh air inlet should be?

I was going to use a 4" sanitary Tee and run it up and out.

Thanks.

Brad

Quote:

Originally Posted by adkhkr

So I have installed the PVC under the footing and connected the main house trap that I built with PVC fittings. My next question is what type of fitting the main fresh air inlet should be?

I was going to use a 4" sanitary Tee and run it up and out.

Thanks.

Brad

Hey Brad,
What do you mean by "main fresh air inlet" Do you mean to vent the sewer line or the septic tank?" Is this called for in your local ordinance as well as the running trap? Let me know, Tom

Here is a picture of what is required...

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/u...hkr/septic.jpg

Where do you live?

New York

I see. This is a vent for the running trap. Now it makes sense. Thanks, Tom

So would a sanitary Tee work for the vent?

Quote:

Originally Posted by adkhkr

So would a sanitary Tee work for the vent?

Although they show a vent tee on its back,(see image) I can see no problem in using a sanitary tee in its place. Ton

Thanks Tom for the help. So now that I have the initial work done on the plumbing, I have to get started with the rough-in plumbing. Attached is a picture of the next phase of the project. After the fresh air inlet, I need to go 90 degrees in both directions. One side will be to a floor drain in the boiler room and the other side will be to the bathroom/kitchen.

Can I use a double Wye fitting to do this?

For the floor drain, do I put a trap under the slab?

Should I keep the floor drain 4" throughout?

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/u...bingLayout.jpg

Quote:

Can I use a double Wye fitting to do this?

You could but I'd feel more comfortable with the floor drain on farther don the main.
That way the discharge from up stairs would flow past the floor drain instead of into it.

Quote:

For the floor drain, do I put a trap under the slab?

Most floor drains have a built in trap.

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Should I keep the floor drain 4" throughout?

For the most part floor drains are 2". 4" floor drains are used in commercial installations. More questions? I'm as close as a click. Tom

I am not sure if this changes anything but this plumbing will only be for the basement. I might also include upstairs laundry later on though. Everything else from upstairs is tied into the existing septic system.

As far as the location for the floor drain, I really can't change the location because the main drain entered the home under the footing in the boiler room and that's where I would like the drain. I thought by having the main trap/cleanouts in that location would be best because it would be accessible and not take up living space and having a floor drain in the boiler room would be nice to have.

Should I reconsider putting in a floor drain because its close to the end of the system where it exits the house?

I wasn't asking you to move the floor drain very far. I was thinking of the velocity of the discharge coming down from above. I was thinking that if the floor drain wasn't connected in line with the discharge from above that it would be better coming off a 4 X 2" combo or wye on the main. That way the upstairs discharge would be slowed down and draining past the floor drain instead of into it.

Quote:

Should I reconsider putting in a floor drain because its close to the end of the system where it exits the house?

You're going to be thankful for that floor drain if you have any spills. I'd keep it in my plans. Can you understand my concern about its present location? Regards, Tom

I'm a little confused... should I come off the main with a 4x2 Wye to the floor drain -than- 4x4 wye to the bathroom/kitchen -than- sanitary tee up for the upstairs laundry.

Should I not use a Double wye? The only reason I wanted to was because it would reduce the amount of excavation/slab breaking.

I was thinking of connecting the upstairs to the main with a long sweep or two 45's and a little farther down the line pick the floor drain up with a 4 X 2" combo or wye.
Do you understand my concerns about discharging almost directly into the floor drain? Regards, tom

OK, I think I'm understanding it now. I made a new sketch of the layout. How is this?

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/u...dkhkr/PLBG.jpg

1 Attachment(s)

Funny, Tom.. without looking at your answer I drew up the same thing you recommended by revising his drawing! How's that for cool... ;)

Adkhkr... check out the drawing below. We want you to use a long sweep elbow (use 2 - 4" street 45s to make a long sweep 90) to turn the corner for the bathroom. Here, if left as double wye with a cap on the end when/if you need to snake the drain in the future from the house side of the house trap you would run into the cap...not up the bathroom drain line. That make sense?? With the long sweep 90 the main line can be cleaned with no difficulty.

Let us know...

MARK

PS: I also noted that you need to change the 4"x2" sanitary tee you had on its back for the upstairs laundry as sanitary tee fittings aren't allowed to be used in this manner. Replace with a 4"x2" wye and street 45 looking straight up. Add a 2" cleanout as soon as you come out of the concrete.

Wow, thanks for the great advice. I might actually be able to do this by myself with the help from you guys.

For the cleanout, is this what you are talking about? This would be in the vertical position like the picture and set just above the concrete floor.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/u...885_300jpg.png

What do I look for in a floor drain? Is it basically a shower drain?

Here is an updated schematic... I bought the fittings and I don't have enough room for the drain to come off the first street 45 so I need to put double street 45s to bring it back into the boiler room. Is this a problem? It should only be water going down there so I think it should be OK.

Also, is it a problem running the 45s outside like that to the septic system? Is it too many turns/should I add a cleanout?

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/u...hkr/PLBG-1.jpg

Thanks.

3 Attachment(s)

The cleanout tee is exactly what I was talking about and it should be installed on the vertical just as it comes out of the ground.

The floor drain can be a PTRAP and a strainer assembly, or you could try to find a complete floor drain as pictured below.

Be clear that the floor drain will have a tendency to DRY out and if it will remain unused most of the time it will probably be a good idea to pour a little cooking oil (or similar non evaporating fluid) into the trap to keep it from evaporating and letting sewer gasses into the home.

FInally, the schematic looks perfect... ;) No need to change anything!

MARK

OK... so I'm still moving on the project and I got everything done in the picture with one problem. When I connected the 2 45's making the right hand turn I made the angle a little too steep. When I tried to connect the 10' length of pipe, the pitch was 3/8" per foot. I tried using a 22 degree elbow but that was too much angle and I didn't have enough pitch. I tried to find an 11 degree elbow but can't find it anywhere.

Would an 11 degree elbow bring an 3/8" per foot to 1/8" per foot?

If this does not work, how else can I fix the problem?

Thanks.

You can either cut the 45s and start again OR you can probably just leave the 3/8" per foot in this case. If you need to run the pipe out farther then you can gradually decrease that 3/8" back to 1/4" over the longer run... ;)

An 11.25 fitting is not easily found... only made by 1 manufacturer that I know of and it is really a pressure rated fitting... not for drainiage!

MARK

That 10' length of pipe comes down from upstairs correct? If so you should have enough velocity so the 3/8ths fall shouldn't be a problem. Follow Marks advice and you'll be just fine. Also you can save yourself a fitting by using a 4 X 2" combination, (Combo) in place of a 4 X 2" wye and a 2" street 45. Good luck, Tom

Speedball... to clarify this is where the problem is. There is nothing from upstairs coming into the pipe at this point.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/u.../PLBG-1rev.jpg

The extra 1/8th" of slope on that ten foot piece is what concerns you? Is the bath and kitchen located in the basement? In any event, I think your fears are groundless.
Good luck, Tom

Yes... the bathroom and kitchen are in the basement. Well if they are groundless than I'm glad to hear it. I will get this section of pipe in, backfill, fill in the concrete and than work on the layout of the bathroom and kitchen. Hopefully my next post will be with plumbing layout questions for the bathroom and kitchen.

Thanks for getting me this far.

I was going to patch the concrete in the trenches that are done. Should I put a cardboard sleeve around the PVC coming up so the concrete doesn't touch the PVC? I thought I read that somewhere, not sure. Thanks.