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I am redoing the bathroom in my basement and I have a question regarding the plumbing. As you can see in this pic I have labeled what I believe to be the vent pipes. My question is that circled in yellow is a unidirectional flow valve. Can someone tell me why it is there?

Also in the far corner I have a shower but it has no vent. Is this because it is wet vented into the main soil line?

My plans are to keep the shower where is it but I will have to relocate the drain a few inches over as the new shower is much bigger. As well the washer and dryer will now be on the other side of the bathroom. I will also be moving the toilette to the other side of the room. The sink will remain in the same place.

I just wanted to know if the directional flow valve is necessary for the washer. Keep in mind I will be relocating the drain to the other side of the room which means I will be feeding it directly into the 4" soil line. Of course I will be running a new vent for the washer that will tie into the existing vent that is shown in this picture.

Thanks for the help

I don't exactly know what you call a "directional valve". But that horizontal pipe on left appears to be a dirt-arm (drain) servicing sink. The vertical pipe it runs into is drain bellow the San T, and vent above the San T.

The directional valve is what is circled in yellow. It is a valve that allows water to only flow in one direction

Hi Pare John:

That unidirectional valve or BACK-FLOW valve is sometimes installed to keep sewer from backing up and out the washing machine drain pipe should the city/town sewer back up or should your own home sewer clog up and back up the drain pipe.

It is not something that is absolutely required, but it is not hurting anything by being there (I have never installed one on a washing machine). It could actually be there more as a clean-out then anything. The fact is that if the sewer pipe does back up it may not show up at the washing machine, but it will show up at the sink or the shower so kind of a pointless valve in this situation. If you re-install it over at the 4" pipe, be sure that it is accessible for the future as these valves can fail over time.

Now, in terms of the shower being wet vented, I'll tell you that I am quite confident that you are right about that if those pipes are 2" pipes. If the lavatory vent is a 2" vent that is usually an indication that the toilet and the shower are wet vented. If those pipes are 1.5" then hopefully there is another 2" vent for the toilet and shower behind another wall... hmmm..?

If you will be moving the toilet across the room and the shower only a few inches you will have a chance to see if the shower is wet vented as the shower vent should connect into the toilet pipe around 5-6 feet from the toilet (or closer).

Anyway, if the toilet isn't vented correctly or there is no vent for the shower pop back and let us know.. glad to discuss venting as you need.

Finally, if you will be cutting into the 4" pipe to install the washing machine be sure to support the pipe well before cutting into it (plastic...right?) and consider installing a 2" pipe, trap and standpipe. They also make a great washing machine box that fits behind a wall and virtually hides all insidee the wall... made by symmons (or others)... see picture. At a minimum please change the washing machine water valve to a single lever shutoff as in my last picture.

Let us know if you need more...

MARK

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My question is that circled in yellow is a unidirectional flow valve. Can someone tell me why it is there?

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At one time the previous owner had a backup problem that came up in the washer stand pipe. This back up had to come from some other source then the washer pump as the check valve wouldn't prevent this from happening.
You are correct. The pipe on the is a vent and the washer revents back into it. That check valve troubles me. Is anything else discharging into the vent from above that would cause the stand pipe to back up?

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Also in the far corner I have a shower but it has no vent. Is this because it is wet vented into the main soil line?

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If the shower drain's connected to the lavatory drain line the answer's yes.

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I just wanted to know if the directional flow valve is necessary for the washer. Keep in mind I will be relocating the drain to the other side of the room which means I will be feeding it directly into the 4" soil line. Of course I will be running a new vent for the washer that will tie into the existing vent that is shown in this picture.

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I would leave the check valve off in the new installation.
Good luck, Tom

Oooops... Of course... I somehow missed it first time I was looking at your pic. My apology...

Yes, as Mark explains : it is there to prevent sewer from backing up and overflowing into your laundry. Its presence may indicate sewer problems in the house. If that's the case, than it may bea good idea to leave it there as it is. Do you have frequent sewer back ups?

Thanks for the replies guys.

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Now, in terms of the shower being wet vented, I'll tell you that I am quite confident that you are right about that if those pipes are 2" pipes. If the lavatory vent is a 2" vent that is usually an indication that the toilet and the shower are wet vented. If those pipes are 1.5" then hopefully there is another 2" vent for the toilet and shower behind another wall... hmmm..?

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The vent that you see in the pic is 1 1/2" pipe.

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If you will be moving the toilet across the room and the shower only a few inches you will have a chance to see if the shower is wet vented as the shower vent should connect into the toilet pipe around 5-6 feet from the toilet (or closer).

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Doesn't wet venting mean that there is no vent pipe and that the drain pipe becomes the vent? If that is the case then why would the shower connect to the toilet pipe and not right to the main soil line?

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Yes, as Mark explains : it is there to prevent sewer from backing up and overflowing into your laundry. Its presence may indicate sewer problems in the house. If that's the case, than it my be good idea to leave it there as it is. Do you have frequent sewer back ups?

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In the four years living here I have never had any isuues

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If the shower drain's connected to the lavatory drain line the answer's yes.

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When I move the toilet I will be shortening its drain line. Does that mean I have to run the drain line longer to reach the now shortened toilet line or can I connect it straight to the main soil line and have it wet vent through there?


Also keep in mind guys that the 4" soil line in the basement serves and the waste line for upstairs. as well the 4" soil line in the basement in running horizontal out to the street

Nope.. wet venting is where a fixture connects into a drain pipe and uses a vent from another fixture to vent the first/second fixture.

For example, a toilet and a shower would be wet vented by a lavatory vent... as long as the pipe size increased to 2" (lav. usually only needs an 1.5" vent). The wet vent would be the lavatory drain line... but the VENT is present at all times. Here, it is assumed that people will not be using the lavatory drain and the toilet or shower at the same time so we can use the lav. Vent to vent each fixture. The increase in 2" is because all toilets require a 2" minimum vent.

So, as stated, the toilet needs a 2" vent. It can use the lavatory vent as a wet vent, but again, the vent would need to be increased to 2" to meet code requirements. Here, you can connect the toilet into the main drain, but you would need to run an individual 2" vent for the toilet (connecting it into a 2" vent or larger in the bathroom) or connect the lavatory drain into the toilet drain pipe.

If never had issues with backups... lose the backflow valve... ;)

Let me know if you want to discuss more. I'll be back on later tonight.

MARK

If the toilet needs a 2"+ vent then why are my vents all 1 1/2". Also I have all the bathroom walls open and I see no other vent lines running up.

Could it be safe to assume that it wet vents through the 4" soil line? in theory the 4" soil line is a vent as it is part of the main stack that connect to the main vent on the roof.

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Could it be safe to assume that it wet vents through the 4" soil line? in theory the 4" soil line is a vent as it is part of the main stack that connect to the main vent on the roof.

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Nice try John, But all codes mandate that you can not discharge a major fixture such as a toilet past a unvented minor one. That means that if you have a toilet or washer discharging upstream from your shower the shower must either have it's own vent or be connected to a drain from a fixture the does have a vent. This is called wet venting. But I like your reasoning. Regards, Tom

YUP... like Speedball said... can't discharge major fixture past unvented fixture... could siphon the trap and allow sewer gasses to enter the home... very unhealthy!

The fact that there are only 1.5" vents only means that the work was most likely not done by a licensed plumber, but as we say around here, "an 1.5" vent is better than no vent at all"... ;) SO I figure you are all set here... until you move that toilet!

Let us know if you have more questions...

MARK

Well the house was build in"89 and the bathroom was build as part of the house. So I am really hoping that the plumber was licensed.

What is funny is that the sink and washer drain pipes that come out of the concrete are 2" but are then reduced to 1.5" when the become vents.

I am going to assume that the shower gets wet vented by the washer and the toilet gets vented by the sink. I have lived in the house for 4 years and the downstairs toilet has always flushed ver well. So I am guessing the 1.5" vent is sufficient enough.

A question I have is what is the max distance a wet vent is allowed to be from a fixture. Example that the toilet is vented by the sink vent. What is the max distance that this vent can be when it junctions with the toilet drain pipe?

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Nice try John, But all codes mandate that you can not discharge a major fixture such as a toilet past a unvented minor one. That means that if you have a toilet or washer discharging upstream from your shower the shower must either have it's own vent or be connected to a drain from a fixture the does have a vent. This is called wet venting. But I like your reasoning. Regards, Tom

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From what I see the first fixture that is immediately after the upstairs toilet would be the downstairs toilet.

Obviously I will get a clearer picture of how the plumbing is done once I get the concrete broken up. I will be sure to post some pictures this weekend when I get to this step

Hi John...

I am confident that the washer doesn't wet vent the shower as it is illegal (again, in terms of plumbing code) to wet vent any fixture using a washing machine drain or a kitchen sink... ;)

I'm betting that everything is wet vented by the lavatory even if only 1.5".

The maximum distance for what you are doing will be between 5-6 feet between the toilet and the connection for the lavatory.

Lookin' forward to the underground pics... :)

MARK

I would first like to say that I appreciate all the help that you guys are giving.

I am guessing then that the washer has its own vent and that the sink is wet venting the toilet and the shower. (like you had said)

I will get a much clearer picture once the concrete is broken up


Another question I have is if the main home sewage line and the water main inlet into the house run side by side. Meaning if I know where my water inlet comes into the house from the strre does this mean my sewer line to my house runs beside it?

Not necessarily...

I would have you look around the front of the house and see if you can find a MAIN CLEANOUT to the sewer drain. After you locate the cleanout you want to find the first 3" or 4" waste stack in the house and then connect a straight line between the stack and the cleanout.

Most likely, before the concrete was poured, the plumbers came in and laid a straight shot of pipe between the cleanout and the stack. Of course, hard for me to say without seeing all, but this is how it usually gets done!

Glad to help...

MARK

Follow Marks instructions on locating the house cleanout. Now call the Building Department and ask them for the measurements to the street raiuser,( where your sewer connects to the city sewer). Line the two up and you'll have a pretty good idea of where your sewer line's buried. Good luck. Tom

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Ok guys, got all the concrete broken up and this is what I am finding. I would just like to know if you believe that mu assumption of the vent location to be correct. Also I would like to know if I can put the toilet in its new location and if the vent that is there will still properly vent the toilet.

The reason I am not sure if that is a vent is cause it seems to run to the exterior wall which I have gutted and I see no piping in the framing.

Something else that I found funny was that the drain for the sink and washer do not seem to connect to the main 3" in the picture you can see the washer drain and it runs towards the exterior wall, the sink drain seems to do the same as well.

Hi John...

This bathroom is a wet vented bathroom. Look at the picture below. You can see that the reason the vent doesn't go toward the outside wall is because it takes a left turn and picks up the lavatory drain. This drain acts to vent the shower and the toilet and also acts as the lavatory waste and vent.

The lavatory drain and vent should be increased to 2" to make this a legally wet vented bathroom. In terms of the washing machine, it must connect into the 3" drain a little further back underground, but it connects into the 3" drain.

Now, you can see that the new toilet drain runs into the old lavatory drain/vent....not a big deal, but a pain to be sure. Let me know where the washing machine is going in relation to all this and if it will connect into the 3" drain in this bathroom group or what? If you can draw me out everything in relation to each other I can draw it up pretty quick...

Also note that a toilet will rough in at 12" off the rough stud wall giving you an 11.5" rough off the finished wall and a nice tight toilet installation to the finished wall.



MARK

I broke up some more concrete and I discovered exactly what you had said.

Now the washing machine will be on the side where the toilet used to be and I will connect into the 3" pretty much where the toilet elbow is. Of course i will be reducing it to a 2" and it will have its own dry vent that I will T off from the lavatory vent.

Can I sit the toilet right over the 3" and use a T to connect to?

I found out that my drain for the lavatory is only 6 inches away from my 3" so I was thinking of putting some 45's on the lav drain to give me more room to shift to toilet of more toward the exterior wall.

Why would be connecting the toilet in its new location be a pain?

Hi John:

To wet vent this bathroom correctly... including the washer (individually vented as you noted) I would have you pipe it up as drawn below... see picture.

Here, you must use a WYE fitting to connect the toilet... NO sanitary tee fittings allowed on horizontal drain pipes. You could install the wye fitting into a street 90 (90 without a hub) or regular 90 for the toilet.

The toilet and shower will need to be wet vented by the lav. So you need to install a 3"x2" wye for this and then turn to pick up the shower using a 2" long sweep 90, or you can make a long sweep up using 2-45 degree fittings.

In terms of the washing machine and the 3" pipe... plumbing code would have you come out of the ground 3" and then install a 3" dandy cleanout (see pic.). Then reduce out of the 3" cleanout using a 3" cleanout using a 3" bushing and install 2" piping to drain for washer and run that 1.5" bushing and install 2" per foot. The sanitary tee fitting that comes off the lavatory vent needs to be installed so that the fitting is upside down... here, rain water that enters through the vent pipe must follow path that drains back to drains naturally, i.e. that is why the sanitary tee fitting is installed upside sown.

The toilet will no longer be a pain... not since I noticed that this all had to be repiped as drawn below... ;) So no issues there!

Let me know what you think...

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The pipe nthat you are showing to use a 2" long sweep 90 is the existing washer drain pipe which i do not have access to as it seems to run under the floor in the next room to connect with the 3".

My question is if I can keep the set up the way it is and just branch the toilet off the 3" to its new location. Also where you have placed the toilet is very far off the finished wall.

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Here is what I was thinking, I will use some 45's to move the sink/wet vent line over so that it will give more room for the toilet. Then the toilet will just branch off the 3".

I would like to know if this setup will work. Pretty much everything remains the same except for the new location of the toilet. Also now there will be an additional vent coming before all the fixtures from the washers new location.

My toilet pipe is exactly where you drew your toilet pipe in the last pic. (should be 12" from rough stud as mentioned)...;) I'm a stinker for detail!

In both of the last pics. you are installing the toilet drain without a vent. That is, you cannot install the washing machine pipe using the 3" pipe that goes to the old toilet without adding a vent for the toilet. In this case, it is best to install the lavatory vent using a 3"x2" wye and run pipes as drawn below.

I know it's a stinker...but this is how wet venting works. You cannot discharge a washing machine past an unvented toilet... it will cause all kinds of bubbling/gurgling... promise!

Otherwise, you could install a wye inline of the washing machine drain and then install an individual vent for the shower.

Let me know what you think...

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Would this work?

Also when you say the toilet drain should be 12" of the framing is that to the center of the drain pipe? Cause that is how it is now in its old location

Sorry... it will not work. As noted in the drawing below, you need to disconnect and cap one pipe (see circle), and you will notice that the way you have drawn all together will not work in terms of proper plumbing fittings.

I drew it up at my last drawing as fittings would work (posted pic. Again for comparison)... ;)

I also posted another alternative piping arrangement.. see bottom pic.

The 12" from rough stud to center of drain works perfect.

Check out the pic. Below. I noticed the cleanout is not a cleanout but another backflow valve. Remove the cover and check to see if flapper is present. If it is this fitting acts to prevent backflow and acts as a cleanout when accessed through the cover.

Just F.Y.I.

Thanks for the pics, I will be going with your diagram in the last pic, it will work the best for me. However the closet I can get the toilet to the framing is 14" so I am 2" off. Will an offset flange correct this?

Once again I owe you a debt of gratitude. You are been very helpful and patient with my questions.

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Once again I owe you a debt of gratitude. You are been very helpful and patient with my questions.

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John, You got advice from one of the best! Good luck, Tom

Thanks guys!

John... the pipes aren't deep enough to use an offset flange. Best answer here will be to purchase a 14" rough in toilet. They are available everywhere, but cost more and most have to be ordered unless you purchase from a local plumbing supply company! Why can't you get closer... curious..

Lastly, don't forget to use long sweep fittings for moving that lavatory drain pipe and when you come out of the ground if possible... :)

I will be having a subfloor that will be close to 3" off of the concrete that you see in my pictures. Would this be enough to fit the offset flange?

I can't get any closer as I am limited to the amount of room to place my first 3x3x3 wye.

The way I am going to do it is as follows. put a 3x3x3 wye inline with existing 3" right off that I will have a 3x3x2 wye that will pick up the shower. Then right off that wye will be a 3" elbow to go to the flange.

It's close... purchase the offset flange and dry fit it to see if it will work. If not, you can buy the 14" rough toilet. They are only about $50-00 to $75.00 more than a regular toilet.

Otherwise, all sounds correct... be sure to cap the line between the old toilet line and the old shower pipe... ;)

Finally, you could cut the 45 back a bit more, install a new 45 and then install a street 3" wye...(see picture..can only purchase at a local plumbing supply company). They also sell a street 3"x2" wye and a street 90... ;) All these should get you to within 12"!

Post a final pic. When you're done... OK?

Good luck...

How much depth is needed to use an offset flange?

I can not cut back any further as the pipe goes under a supporting wall where I have no access.

Depends on the offset flange. Best to purchase a street 90, a regular 90 and an offset flange at a local home supply store and dry fit them and see how it works with new floor height.

when you say they sell a street 3x2 wye does that mean the one of the 3" is straight pipe(no collar?) Also do they make a steet 3x3x3 where the arm in the wye is flush?

Also if using an offset flange could i not leave a larger opening in the concrete around the 3" to give me more depth for the offset flange

When I say street 3"x2 it is same as the 3" street wye I posted at post #31... the bottom of the fitting has no hub.

They do not make a 3x3x3 with flush arm.

Yes...leave extra room around the concrete if using the offset flange. Even if using a regular flange you need to leave room so the flange can set down into concrete... although in your case with higher floor it may not be necessary.

Thanks again for you help. It is people like you that make home renovations for the do it your selfer more doable.

I will post pics once I start to lay the new pipe

Glad to help...

Remember grasshopper that your work represents my teachings... be precise and make me proud!

*bows respectfully*... :rolleyes:

Look forward to the pictures... :D

OK well all the plumbing is down and glued. Unfortunately the closet I can get the toilet to the studded wall is 15.5 inch. I oredered a 14 inch toilet today, so that will still leave me with 1.5" of gap. I purchased an offset flange but it will stick up past the subfloor 1 3/4 " My question is can I cut the collar down on both the flange and the closet pipe. The coolars are 1.5" and on the glue it says that you need at least 1/3 of pipe insertion into the collar. So I was going to cut down each collar by about an inch. This will give me 2 more inches of depth for the offset flange.

Also I am figuring with the tile laid I will gain more height as well. Can you tell me an estimation of how much height you gain from sub floor to finished surface floor when laying tile?

Do they make offset flanges with a male end?

Also if you guys have anymore suggestions please let me know.

Thank you

hi John... did you use the street wye fittings?

I didn't say so... but I have taken an inch off each hub before and all worked out fine!

They do not make a male ended offset flange that I know of.

From concrete floor you should plan on about an additional 3/8 to 1/2" max if you are using 12"x12" tiles. Here, is 1/4" thinset mortar compressed a little by the tile which is typically 1/4" to 3/8" depending on tile chosen.

Pick out the tile first to be sure you install flange at correct height!

I'll think on other suggestions...

MARK

John... don't know if this will help, but if you rotate a street 90 to a 45 degree angle then maybe this flange can help. See picture. It is a 45 degree flange... ;)

These will only be available at a plumbing supply store.