Finding this board has been a beautiful thing. I've spent the last few days reading the previous posts on people's shower drain issues, and have learned a great deal. I ignored the problem for a long time, and just used different bathrooms in the house for showers. Very frustrating situation. I've had 2 plumbers in at different times and they just shrug and talk about ripping out things--- not kidding. Then I get charged for an estimate fee and they leave, without giving any good information. Tonight I started doing some work on it, and here are the pics.

Tried to pull out the PVC pipe, as it looked like it was disconnected from a second pipe right below it.


It wasn't coming easily, and was like it was getting stuck on something, so I got a hacksaw and but a slit in the side (the wingtite directions mentioning cutting out the original drain, so I thought "well, I'll just cut out the PVC pipe as well!"


After cutting through it, pulling and moving it up and down, for some reason it still seems attached to the "second" white piece below, even though there looks like there is a gap.

Well, I'm frustrated as heck, thought this would be as easy as the wingtite directions said it would be.

Let me mention, I don't have the wingtite piece. Figured I would get the thing out and maybe repair the PVC pipe first by pulling it out, putting silicone on the bottom, and reattaching it to the piece it was disconnected from, only it looks like it's actually not disconnected to the piece below it.

So here are pics from the bottom of the shower. A very tight space in a basement. The leak drips right on the my HVAC system, and almost rotted through it. Bought the house, and the people MUST have known about this, there was caulk the size of softballs around the joint up there. One of the plumbers I had in reached up there and removed the caulk, and then pretty much started talking about demolition etc. saying there was no way to get to it and to get AC people to take apart the ductwork and call him back to fix the plumbing.

From looking at the underneath of the shower, the leak is happening around the base of the shower, not along the pipe. As in, where the drain seems to meet the floor of the shower, that's where the water is streaming from.

Also, for the pics that are looking down into the shower you can see water that is stuck in the trap. No leaks there. It only leaks when water is running down *into* the drain.

Tried to put as much info as possible instead of some of the posts I saw... those "my shower leaks, help!" kind of things.

Thanks!

Another question. Could it be that the shower floor is cracking? I'm around 175 and when I step on the shower floor it does sink a little/make noise. I read something on here about improper support for the shower floors.

I'mnot a plummer by trade, but to me it looks like your problem is not the piping itself it's the tailpiece. That's the part with the plastic nut on it. I see you have a no hub on the pipe now so the rest shouldn't be to hard. Remove the no-hub, take that nut off and pull it out through the top of the shower. Buy some plumbers putty. You roll the putty into a string like piece long enough to go around the top of the tailpiece. I usually roll the putty to the size of a pencil. 1/4". The place the tail piece into the top of the shower, push down on it with all your weight, go downstairs and draw the nut up. Don't over tighten it. You should see how its sealing from upstairs... putty coming up along the top of the tail piece. Remember, don't over tighten that nut or you'll defeat the purpose of the putty. Take your finger around the top and remove the excess and you should be in business. The guys at Home Depot and Lowe's can also explain it while your getting your putty... good luck!

Sorry didn't see that second post. Yes the shower floor could well be cracked if not properly supported when installed. If your eager enough you can fix that also. BONDO!

Remove the Fernco coupling (that black rubber couping with the two band clamps)
Try to unscrew the nut on the shower pan flange. If you cannot unscrew it (I can see you don't have much room to work), cut it with a sharp wood chisel. The flange and pipe should the come out from the top. Replace the flange and pipe using a 2" coupling to connect the pipe to the piece coming out of the trap. If this gets to difficult because of the close quarters cut the drain pipe several inches back from the trap. Loosen or cut the Fernco and pull the trap out. Remove and replace shower flange Assemble trap with proper length pipe and coupling to fit on the drain line. Dry fit parts together and put in place. Measure length of pipe needed to connect flange to trap. After you have all you parts properly cut, install with primer and glue. This might be tight quarters to work in but demolition of any thing should not be necessary. Somebody put that thing in after the duct work was done. You should be able to get it out

Thanks VERY much for the answers so far.

Getting access from the bottm is going to be near impossible. LOL... I took those pictures with the zoom, holding a flashlight pointing to the drain in one hand and the camera in the other. I think you are right about it being installed *after* the duct work was done. I took some pics so you can get an idea of how hard it is to get to the area. hkstroud you're right... no room to work. I guess I have to go about this via the top?

Both answers point to turning the nut underneath. There's no clearance to be able to get to it. I can reach with one arm, and it's only because I'm skinny. The plumber guys that came, both of them, were short and a little tubby. One guy was just a big built guy and couldn't reach, even with a ladder. Arms were too thick.

The leak comes right from where the floor meets what I assume is the nut.

Isn't there any tool to screw this out of the top? I figured that the fernco coupler (thanks hkstroud) is what's holding that pipe in there, and why I can't pull it out from the top of the drain. eschuen what is the "no-hub"?

Now I get the picture. It does look a little tight. I would say that when the shower pan was installed, the flange and the vertical pipe were assembled and attached to the pan. The Fernco was attached to the pipe out of the trap. The pan with flange and tail piece was set down into the Fernco. The other band clamp around the Fernco was then tightened from below. That's probably where the leak is because of the difficulty tightening. The pipe you cut is still glued to the flange and also held by the top band of the Fernco. Had you not cut the pipe you could have attempted to tighten the clamps. Now you must remove both the pipe and the flange. There is a tool for cutting the pipe from the inside but you must also replace the flange. To remove the flange you must be able to unscrew or cut the nut. To install the new flange you must have access to the underside to tighten the nut. More pictures would help but right now it looks like you could remove the turn or elbow of the duct work. Do you see the straps or bands around the joints of the turn? Straighten the ends that are bent around the corner, grasp one end with a pair of pliers. These slide off. With a good grip on you pliers use a hammer, striking you pliers, to pull them off. There is another one with bent tabs in the rear. After removing these you can remove the two that do not have tabs. You must also do the same thing up where the duct appears to go up through the floor. There appears to be another wall next to the duct that will make this difficult but I can't be sure. With the duct turn removed you can easily do the plumbing. Could we have more pictures.

More pictures, as requested..

I circled the spots where the leaking comes fron when I turn on the water in the shower upstairs. It comes from the top, where the pan(?) meets the nut(?). Please correct me if I'm not using the terms correctly! Also, it is the same leakage pattern from before I started sawing through the pipe up top.

For the other pictures, you can see that there's no real space there: the duct juts right up against the wall. Can't get to anything in the "rear"... on the other side of the wall is a finished bathroom, directly below the master bath upstairs.

Vocab lesson-- the flange is the top-looking "drain" thing. And the nut is the screw thing on the bottom, that you tighten up against the underside of the shower pan (floor). Is that about right??

Also, I don't think I cut actually through that pipe---- I know it looks bad though. Now I totally understand why I couldn't pull that pipe through the top of the drain. It is attached to the other one with the black coupling. After someone explains things everything seems to clear up. Amazing.

I guess I need a list of things to get from the hardware store as well. A "nut cutter" sorry... couldn't resist. PVC pipes (lengths/sizes), I guess a new drain? Plumber's putty? I know my way around the hardware store and can find (or hey, ask!) what's needed. I just might remove the duct work and put some of that Mighty Putty around the bottom of the shower pan... (bad idea?? ) ;^)

Aa

Yes... the other side is a finished bathroom

OK... my input.. if you cannot remove duct work as suggested by hkstroud.. BUT you can get one hand in there...start with loosening/removing the stainless steel clamps completely off the rubber fernco clamp. Then using a sharp razor knife pull the razor across the fernco coupling and cut it off the pipe. I can see it looks rough.. but with long single deep strokes you will eventually cut it off.

Then... and you would need to be real careful here... (AND I AM SURE SOME OF THE OTHER PLUMBERS ON THIS SITE WILL GO NUTS... ;) )... I would super heat a small chisel to red hot and melt a portion of the nut JUST enough that you can get another chisel in and twist it to break the nut. THIS has worked for me in past similar situations.

Please, if you attempt this be sure not to melt into the shower unit... this would be a bad thing!!

Then you just pull drain unit up and out from above... re-install new fernco coupling with ss clamps loose (Place the new drain nut/rubber washer/fiber washer (in that order) over the fernco for now) then prime/cement the 2"pipe into the new shower drain (should be about same size as last piece of pipe in old drain... but still measure dry with drain in place) and install the drain with silicone.

Have a friend hold it in place and you go downstairs and try to attach nut/washer/washer as best you can. Then have friend turn in as tight as he can (work together and between you both it will get tight enough). Let silicone dry overnight, then go back and tighten the clamps.

I know it sounds impossible... IT MAY EVEN BE IMPOSSIBLE... ;)... but this may also work for you.. it has worked for me in such tight places before!! Hope this helped... good luck!!

Also, wait to see if hkstroud has any other ideas... seems to be giving real good advise!!

PS... you could just loosen the ss clamps and not cut the fernco coupling if you desire and just try to snap twist/snap the nut, too. Up to you.

Next question, (hang in there) Could you reach the drain and trap if you removed a section of ceiling in bathroom?

Good question hk!

No, the bathroom wall ends 2 or three feet in front of the drain...

Hey Quick... just wondering... have you even tried to get up in there and loosen the 5/16" ss clamps.. (most are 5/16")... just wondering... cause if you can... I swear my way will get you up and running.. again... just wondering? Thanks

I figured you were going to say that. My next question is the same as Massplumbers, "Can you get at least one of those band clamps loose?". If you can we can get the old drain pipe out, even if you can't get to the nut around the flange, and we are going to fix this thing. My next question is, how is you woodworking skills? Do you have a saber or jig saw and an drill? Can you cut a circle out of a piece of plywood. I have a plan, stay tuned MP, you'er going to like it.

I can get to the band clamps... I have long arms and am pretty thin. The whole thing is getting traction on that nut, which is of course, higher up and screwed on tighter than "whatever-you-think-is-very-tight".

Woodworking skills are good. I have a drill and the bits to cut circles. No saber or jig, but I can buy or borrow--- need one anyway! I've built shelves and bookcases so I'm OK with the woodworking.

OK . Loosened band clamps. If you can get screwdriver in slots great. A 5/16 socket on the end of nut driver handle or on 1/4" rachet with 3" extension might work better.
After loosening band clamps make another cut in drain pipe just like the one you have already. Make this one about 1" away from the first. Make another on the opposite side of the pipe.
With a propane torch, heat the inside of pipe. At first fan the flame around the inside of the pipe until it begins to warm. Then concentrating on the 1" between cuts, heat and using a 1/2" or 3/4" wood chisel pry between the walls of the pipe and the flange. When heated the PVC will soften and the two can be separated. After removing the 1" section you can then work on the rest. The edges of the pipe may occasionally catch a flame. Just back torch off a little and blow out flame. After removing pipe, remove Fernco coupling.


Alternative for cutting pipe. Get a inside pipe cutter like shown below, chuck in drill and cut pipe from inside below the bottom of the flange threads if cutter will reach that far, it should.




Next we are going to make you a tool to remove flange nut. This tool will in effect be a wooden socket with a handle that comes up thru the center so you can turn it from the top side.

For that you will need
1. A replacement flange assembly so we can measure things.
2. a saber saw and blades.
3. A drill and twist bits.
4. a small scrap piece of 1/2' or 3/4" plywood.
5. Wood glue.
6. Small brads or nails
7. A 1/2" bolt and two nuts.(length to be determined).
8. A small compass or some other device for drawing circles.

Gather materials and I will post instruction for building socket later. 1:45 AM now.

Keep us posted on removal of Fernco and pipe.

Alrighty... back. I got the pipe out. From the picture you can see the little gap where the fernco sleeve is. I didn't do too much loosening of the fernco, those metal strips weren't budging. A couple of proper cuts in the pipe and it came out. Didn't need a torch or anything. One thing I did was take my saw and go around the outside of the pipe, while everything was still connected. I think that contributed to it coming out so easily. I couldn't "saw" around the pipe, just pushed it down and then pulled it up,repeated. Just had to internally visualize the whole setup, it's a different mindset! I'm less confused.

The drain spins a little bit in each direction. For the wingtite directions I see that they talk about cutting the drain out. Is that a possibility instead of building something to try to twist the nut out?

Great, you got the pipe out. If the drain flange turns you know what was causing the leak. It wasn't tight enough. If you can get your hand on the nut and grip it enough you may be able to unscrew it. You would have to have someone hold the flange. That would be half the battle.

It is also possible to cut the lip of the flange away with a sharp wood chisel if you are careful not to damage the shower pan. Depends on the amount of room you have between the lip of the flange and the shower pan. With the bevel side of the chisel down, catch the outer edge of the flange lip with a corner of the cutting edge. Most of the chisel should be above the flange. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that the cuting edge of the chisel is almost verticle. Tap with a hammer toward the center of the flange.
This way you may be able to cut the flange like a saw cut from the outer edge to the inner diameter. Watch to make sure that the chisel is not digging into the shower pan. Once you get one cut made you will probably be able to get the chisel under the lip of the flange (bevel side down) and begin cutting and breaking it out. With the lip removed the rest with the nut will fall through.

If you can't turn the nut or cut away the flane lip, we'll go into the tool manufacturing business.

Hi QL... hey, congrats... getting there! Now just remove the strainer... me and hk gave some good ideas to get it out. Let us know how it goes.

I agree with hkstroud, that it appears that that ductwork has to come out, but it looks like the water heater is in the way.

Being very tricky here, you COULD drill a small hole from the basement into the pipe between the nut and the fernco (rubber coupling). Then clean out the best you can the drain. Mark it on the inside and cut it with a Dremel tool. (This step may not be necessary)

The attachment is basically a saw at the end of a mandrel.

You can cut the nut downstairs with a Dremel as well.

If you don't have access to the screws on the Fernco, you can cut the clamp with a Dremel as well. You may be able to use a clamp from a new Ferco and then use an offset screwdriver to tighten it.

Re-thinking.

1) Cut upper clamp on fernco (Dremel)
2) Cut Nut on drain (Dremel)
3) Try to remove drain
4) If unsuccessful, cut drain pipe from inside. (Dremel)
etc.


Installation is going to be tricky in any event.

Work done last night!

Ok... took a screwdriver and went around the lip of the drain, in between it and the shower pan. I sawed directly above the screwdriver to make sure I didn't go too deep and hit the shower floor. Went around abd made about 5 or 6 different cuts and was able to drop the thing down through the shower floor.

What I DON'T understand is this setup. It looks like it's just one piece! I thought this was supposed to be like a screw and a nut. That's why it was leaking at where I drew the arrow (in a previous pic I posted), because the thing was just moving back and forth in the shower floor hole. Whatever putty that was there was brittle and dry and basically non existent.

Next steps? I guess I don't need the fancy wingtite thing now...

Wondered what happen to you QL. Looks like you need to vacumn out that trap real well. Don't won't to have to start all over because of a blocked trap.

Will that trap move up or down or left or right any? Can we move it any to get fittings in place?

Wait for MP, maybe he can tell us how a Wedge-Loc shower flange works. I am not familiar with them. If they work the way I think, you may be able to remove the Fernco, replace it with a coupling, then stick a piece of pipe in the coupling from the top side, cut off the pipe and then install the Wedge-Loc.

Hi QL and HK... nice job QL... now clean out drain like HK suggested and if you want can remove the fernco coupling too.

The wedge-lok drains I have seen are usually reserved for molded shower floors with drains built right in so just need to place rubber donut over drain pipe and install.

But I think I know what kind of drain you guys are talking about... see pic. Below... anyway... Here, you should have a shower strainer that installs in two pieces... the under side nut and the top side assembly. You will need to have the rubber washer and the fiber or cardboard washer downstairs (rubber against shower pan) with the shower nut... and the threaded strainer assembly upstairs with silicone on it (silicone just lasts so much longer and allows for flexibility better than putty). Then with 1 person holding siliconed strainer upstairs in place, person downstairs threads the nut onto strainer... easy so far. Tighten this as best you can by hand (could purchase a slipnut wrench at home supply to tighten better if you wanted)... but will be fine if used silicone (clean excess silicone off strainer upstairs at this time).

Then place the rubber donut in strainer and measure from the donut top to the pipe (with fernco or PVC coupling in place).. then add 1/4" to measure. If using PVC coupling cut the pipe... remove donut... prime/cement the pipe in place (someone holds against you downstairs) and then install the rubber donut... if you find this hard a little soap around donut will help to push it all the way in. I have even had to use dull tipped tools to push down onto drain. If that is all that came with strainer then simply click the strainer top on and good to go... BUT

I am going to assume that you have a top brass nut that goes over the pipe and threads into drain... over pipe and rubber... to compress that rubber and improve seal around pipe with a small tool they supplied with drain (metal with rectangle hole in it). You would plug the drain pipe if you use this tool as so many drop this in drain pipe. Tighten a bit with pliers and then should be good to go for a long time.

Let me know if I am describing the right drain.. ok? Hope that is all you needed... as always keep us posted! Good job bud!

Wow, great discussion & pics.

Makes this website so great :)

Hey knucklez... did you see our posts at your thread?? We need to talk ;)

You've got the drain described down to a "t". I'll post a pic in a second. The nut was so caked on and dried up (the previous "fix" had about 5 inches, no kidding, of caulk all around the whole bottom of the shower pan. This worked for about 3 months after moving in, and then the drip drip drip POUR. The first plumber that I had in removed all of it. Guess they wanted to make sure the house sold, eh?)

I think the only difference from your description is that everything is plastic. Not sure if I mentioned it before, but this was pre-installed when I got the house. So I need to the store and make sure the replacement drain has these specific parts so there can be the right match?

As far as the silicone there was nothing, nada, zilch of putty or anything between the shower drain lip and the floor of the shower. In hindsight I could have gotten one of those extension-type wrenches, busted a gut trying to loosen that nut, and put some silicone in there. That would have fixed it. But we're talking about a real extension wrench here... I had to strain and use the hack saw blade to try to catch the drain so it would fall on my side and not go down behind the wall.

(EDIT: Just went to some online home depot/lowes places and didn't see any shower drains... need to go to a plumbing supply place?)

Great pic QL. If my picture of parts is right except that your stuff is plastic... as you suspected, just follow instructions exact!

Keep us posted as you go... doing a great job QL! And you know what... HKstroud...if you are not a plumber... you should be!!

Good night!

Sorry Wife took computer but I'm back.


Ok, QL it looks like that type of shower flange will solve a couple of problems for us. You are probably going to have to get it from a plumbing supply though. Print pic and take with you. Probably have both plastic and brass versions. Doubt that it matters which one. Suggest removing Fernco. That will give you a little more room to work and will eliminate the need to tighten clamps when we are done. The only disadvantage will be if you ever have to do this again you will be hard piped and will have to move back beyond the trap to do anything.

It will be you call as to weather or not you think you can get you hand up under and in between the joist to tighten the nut and weather you have enough swing room to turn the nut with a wrench. I wouldn't be very confidant of hand tight.

I'll be back shortly with my tool manufacturing idea.

Me plumber, no way, they have to work too hard.

Tell me about it ;) I like that creativity HK.

Using ½” or ¾”scrap plywood,
Lay the nut on the ply wood trace around the outside of the nut.
Find the center of your drawing, by drawing lines from corner to corner.
Using a compass draw a circle around the outside image about 2” larger than the nut image. In other words you should have about ¾” to 1” of wood left after you cut this out.
Drill hole in center and cut out the center making the inside slightly larger than the drawing.
Cut away the excess around the outer ring.
You should now have something that looks like the first image.

Draw 3 or four more circles before changing you compass. Change you compass to a to radius slightly greater than the inside diameter of the nut drawing.
Draw another circle inside each of the larger circles.
Cut these out. Do not cut out the inside of one of these circles.
You should have something that looks like image two.
How many of these you need will depend on how thick the plywood is and how long the threaded part of the flange is. They are spacers between the nut plate and the bottom of the flange threads

Drill a 3/8 hole in the circle that you did not cut out the center.

You should have image three.

Put a 3/8' by 1 or 1 ½' bolt through the bottom disk with a washer on each side. Tighten nut as tight as you can. It's got to be really tight. You could put super glue between the bolt head and the washer and between the washers and the wood if you like.
Put the second nut on the bolt. Holding the first nut tighten the second nut very tight. This will keep the bolt from unscrewing.

Now stack these up with the nut shaped plate on top and bolt plate on the bottom. Bolt head inside the assembly.

Using regular wood glue, glue your assembly togeather. Put a good film of glue on one side of two pieces and put together.. Either clamp together tightly or put in vise if you have one. No clamps or vise, tack together with small nails. Nails will act as clamps until glue dries. Repeat to add next part.

You should now have a wooden socket with a bolt head on the inside that you can get to with a socket and ratchet with an extension on from the topside of the drain to tighten the drain nut.

Before assembling, check that the nut driving plate fits on the nut easily but firmly.

After getting the drain assembly in place and the nut run up by hand, you need someone to put your wooden socket on the bottom of the drain and hold it in place while you tighten it with the socket, extension and ratchet from the top.

If the nut slips, you might be able to use a hole saw arbor. Porter-Cable 18666 Hole Saw Arbor - PlumberSurplus.com

Drill the hole for the center and the hole for the two tabs.

Remove the drill bit. Get a 1/4" flat rivet. It looks like a nail.

These things. Copper Round Rivets

You can buy them in single quantity at the hardware store.

Cut it to the proper length and attach the rivet with the set screw that was used to secure the original drill bit. Use a fender washer under the rivet head.

Now you will have a drive system that won't slip.

In all likeliness, you won't need it.

I can't find mine, otherwise, use a bolt the same size as an arbor so you have a fall back position.

Now that a good idea KISS, wish I'd thought of that.
Could probably just use a "T" if you could find one that bit.

Sometimes you need a right hand. BTW, I can write script left handed, right handed, left handed mirror image and right-handed mirror image.

Yea, I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous. :D

I found my hole saw, but I have the mandrel for the smaller sizes, not the fancy mandrel.

From a large hole saw, the clearance hole needed would be 9/16".
You would also need two 1/4" holes 1" apart on center.

So, you can use any bolt less than 9/16" for your initial try.

The shaft is hex, but I forgot to measure it.

We'll keep this as a back up. I don't QL going to have a hole saw mandrel. May have to buy though.
Just checked mine. 11/32 fits shank but not much material between center hole and pin holes.

Lowe's has the mandrel:

3/8" Arbor (Mandrel) 6L

Might work. Wonder if 3/8 T nuts be hard to find. Just bought some 5/16