Ok, I don't think it will be possible to install the riser clamp under a hub, there isn't a hub anywhere accessibly above where I will have to tie in. Is that horrible?

Does the riser clamp and the 2x4 supports remain in place permanently? Or just until after the connection is finished?

OK if no hub to go under... just tighten the clamp real good!

You remove the clamp and studs after you finish installing the clamps... ;) That is why you install cast into cast... axial loading is best with cast on cast!

This seems really manageable.

So, a related, but off topic question. Here in DC, only licensed plumbers can pull plumbing permits. I have a number of friends who have hired a plumber to simply pull the permit, spot check the work and be present at the inspection. I'd really like to go this route, I am sure I can get hooked up with a plumber. Have you ever done this (I doubt it)? Any guesses at a fair price?

No guesses at a fair price... simply wouldn't be helpful as prices for material and labor vary greatly from town to town, etc...

I have actually pulled a permit for someone else doing the work. We meet and discuss the work, they do the work, then I inspect the work, set the temperatures as required (120F to house and 112F to the tubs/showers) and then stand for inspection. I have only done it twice.. once for a friend and the other time for a guy that paid me a lot of money! YUP! 'fraid I sold out for money!

How much did it take for you to sell out? Less than if you had done the job, right?

I basically doubled my hourly rate was all... seemed reasonable! Took like 4 hours total time to lay out, discuss, inspect, pull permit and set temps.

Ok, great. That is my thinking. You and the homeowner made out on the deal. He saved a ton on the labor and you made twice your hourly.

Seemed reasonable... :)

OK, so it is not unheard of, right? With all your help I should be in pretty solid shape.

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by setting temps?

Now, back to our regularly scheduled plumbing support...

When cutting through the cast iron stack, how important is it to have a straight cut? Any tips or tricks on getting a straight line?

Not unheard of, but I expect you will have some trouble finding someone out there... but someone will help!

Code requires that the water heating source have an output of 120F at all hot water outlets except for tub and shower valves.

The tub/shower valves are required to have a temperature limiting device that allows adjustment to the required 112F. You will find it mentioned in the installation instructions of your new valve .

You will need a thermometer in the correct range for this. They can be found at all plumbing supply stores. This is required before calling for final plumbing inspection (at least in my area... fihuring in your area as well!).

In terms of cutting the stack, take a piece of paper and wrap it around the stack, square the paper up so edges meet and then trace the straight line onto the pipe. Follow this line and the cut will be pretty straight!

Back to you...

Excellent. Also, don't think I mentioned this, but excellent idea on the level. Do you really do that, or are you able to eyeball it?

On the vertical runs of the DWV, how often do the pipes need to be supported? What do you use to support them?

Months ago you helped me plan out a house repipe with PEX. I opted to hold off on doing it until this addition goes in. Figure if I am going to make a mess of the house, I'm better off doing it all at once. So, a couple of questions to make sure I've got it right...

1) I will be using a manifold system. Should I run 3/8 or 1/2 to each fixture?

2) Depending on the above, what size hole should I drill, I know PEX expands?


Also from a previous conversation...

We will be putting a laundry closet on the second floor of the house, while we hope it never leaks, we want to be prepared. I've seen you recommend an automatic shut off system and/or a floor drain. In my application, what do you suggest?

Thanks!

I have a pitch level for bigger jobs and other than that.. I eye ball it on the site glass of the level... you can play with that before beginning... ;)

On vertical runs of DWV pipe you want to support at every floor and wherever it seems to make sense to stabalize the pipes. Galvanized clips under a fitting work well here. Horizontal runs are supported every 4 feet.

PEX

Run the 1/2" as a minimum to all fixtures. You will reduce to 3/8" compression using shutoffs. If you plan on installing high volume shower valve or multi. Head shower system then you will need to run 3/4" pex as a minimum to the showers... you would run these separate of the manifold. Hole size just needs to be 1/4" to 1/2" wider than the pipe.

Washing machine:

I like the floodstops (see pic.) with a pan for all second floor washing machines. They aren't perfect but they are better than nothing. Most important will be to buy the regular single lever shutoff (symmons or watts) and actually use the lever to shut off the water supply after each use. SS braided hoses are also a must!

The floor drain is a great idea, too, but the trap for the floor drain would also require a TRAP PRIMER to be installed and the floor would need to be pitched to the drain for the floor drain to be really useful during a smaller flood or washer overflow.

You could also combine both the floodstops and the floor drain.. up to you.

Excellent.

Back to PEX for a moment, if you don't mind...

1) Do you have a preferred manufacturer? Which product do you trust the most?

2) How do you handle the stub outs for the various fixtures, lavatory, toilet? Is there a method that will allow me to avoid copper all together? How about the stubouts for the clawfoot tub? Of course these will come up out of the floor?

3) How do you handle 90 degree turns?

I use the viega system... in my opinion, the best pex system. When running water or heat I use the FOSTAPEX... it is form stable and looks clenaer or less like spaghetti then the non-fosta piping.

Viega PureFlow - MANABLOC water distribution system, ViegaPEX tubing

This may not be readily available in your area. If it is, you may be able to RENT the crimping tools from the distributor instead of purchasing them.. ;)

Now, I am someone that transitions over to copper pipe before I stub out (see picture)... this way I can use all the regular finish shutoffs that I have always used. You don't have to as most manufacturers have shutoffs that fit their system... so you may not have to transition to copper.

When I do transition over to copper I make up a bunch of copper pieces with caps and elbows and solder them all together with a pex adapter. I count up all my hot and cold stub outs (I don't count tubs/showers as can direct connect PEX to these valves) and make up that many.

Then I go around and secure these stubs to where they belong using clips/hangers, etc. and then I run the PEX and crimp onto the stub outs. This is a fast way to do the job. You could also purchase the ready made stubouts from viega, but they cost a lot... much cheaper to just make them yourself.

Excellent. That Fostapex is like 3 times the cost of standard Viega Pex, is it worth it? None of my work will be exposed at all.

Do you use the Press or the Crimp fittings? Does it matter?

To avoid soldering, can I use something like this?

HydroPEX H180500 - $4.11 - HydroPEX - 1/2" PEX x 1/2" Copper (3-1/2" x 8") Copper Stub Ell

Fostapex is a little under double the cost of regular pex in my area, but if no exposed piping regular PEX is fine!

I mentioned, "You could also purchase the ready made stubouts from viega, but they cost a lot more". They would definitely reduce the number of soldered joints behind the wall and if you're not super confident in soldering then this is definitely best approach!

You can use compression shutoffs (see pic.) to reduce the number of soldered joints outside the wall, too.

Symmons and Moen (I think) make a viega PEX tub/shower and shower valve that would allow direct crimp to the valve... can be ordered at any supply house/internet site that works with viega.

The clawfoot tub... (I missed that in the last post):

You will need to run the pex to a threaded FEMALE adapter that gets secured so it is about 1/2" above the finished floor... this allows you to grab the fitting while tightening in a CHROME threaded nipple say 18" tall that threads into a ball shaped faucet attachment (or whatever faucet you choose). Then you slide a bell flange down the chrome nipple to cover the adapter sticking 1/2" above the floor. The chrome nipple may be a special order... OR note here that you need to decide on the exact faucet you want and then rough it in according to the manufacturer's instructions.


.

Excellent. Thanks.

Do you prefer the PEX Crimp method or the Push Pex? Does it matter or should I go with whichever is easiest to get the tools?

How do you handle right angles/90 degree turns? Do these work? Plastic Bend Supports - Wirsbo Plastic Bend Supports - PEX Plumbing - PEX Plumbing Installation

Thanks for the confirmation on the stubouts. I am sure it is much more expensive, but given the small scope of the project, I don't think it will break the bank and will keep me from burning the house down.

I think I understand the clawfoot tub setup, but how do you manage to get the adapter secured 1/2" above the finished floor?

Also, I think I will hold off on repiping the upstairs bathroom until we go to renovate it in a couple of years. Can I connect PEX to galvanized steel? I'd imagine the answer is yes, but I'd need to use some sort of a dielectric fitting, right?

Finally, just out of curiosity, what do you think of the prices on this website? Are they good, bad, close? Viega PEX Tubing - ViegaPEX Tubing - Vangurad PEX Tubing - PEX Tubing

Definitely prefer the CRIMP method. I have seen some of the push type pex fail... so not a fan there.

I handle 90 degree turns using the exact hanger you posted... ;)

Small scope of the job does make sense to go with prefab stubouts... good call!

I will draw up a great way to hang the adapters for the clawfoot tub.. give me a day or so, but you will like it... promise. BUMP me again if I don't get back quickly.

Dielectric fitting is essential... another good call! A union is great if pipes are exposed... if not, need to find another alternative fitting.

Finally, I will need to check prices tomorrow to compare against your prices... let you know when I post my drawing.

MARK

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stubits

Also, I think I will hold off on repiping the upstairs bathroom until we go to renovate it in a couple of years. Can I connect PEX to galvanized steel? I'd imagine the answer is yes, but I'd need to use some sort of a dielectric fitting, right?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mass plumber2008

Dielectric fitting is essential...another good call! A union is great if pipes are exposed...if not, need to find another alternative fitting.

---

Plastic to galvanized, use a dielectric fitting? Doesn't make sense to me AT ALL unless I'm missing something.

Where is the two dissimilar metals when using plastic and galvanized? Just don't get it.

KISS the adapter between PEX and the galvanized will be made of BRASS (male or female thread) if you are using the VIEGA PEX system.

Brass to galvanized equals dielectric fitting... ;)


MARK

In order to get that electrolysis action, you need to complete the circuit.

Ground to Galvanized - ga;vanized to brass - brass to pex and you need an electrolyte between the brass and the galvanized. Water is kind of a poor conductor unless it is moist on the outside of the fitting.

So, if thereis water on the outside of the fitting, then a dialectric needs to be used.

If it's on a totally dry locaion, then doesn't likely matter.


The dialectric union is necessary, but further investigation, I believe is warranted in this case.

You need two disimilar metals, an electrolyte and a "circuit".

You have A. You may have B and you have a lousy C. Furthermore, the brass mipple will be insulated somewhat with the teflon tape.

For something that is going to be replaced, the extra expense might be avoided.

Thanks to you both. Perhaps it is overkill, but really, there are only two connections that will be affected. I think I'd rather be safe than sorry. And yes, I intend to replace it, but it is hard for me to predict when and I'd rather not have any added pressure.

So, Mark, a couple more questions...

1) So, the 90 degree bend support would be used for example when PEX goes from a horizontal floor run up into a wall, right?

2) With the dielectric fittings, can you explain what you mean by an alternate fitting if the pipes are not exposed?

Thanks!

All circuits have a path. Usually it's metal electrolyte and metal. If metal and matal don't ough, yiu can't have elecrolesysy.\\\\\\\









\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\




Metal to meal + some electrolyte has has a botential of creatting a battery. C circuit numbt be created fir this tio occur. Water is the circuit meduim.

Just like a battery:

Has(+) ANode - electrolyte- Cathode, (-) a battery is formed. Once you draw poper, you utilized the battery and corrosion takes places. No water, no junk Iions) no battery.

You vcan have two s=dissimilar metals connevted to gether and put I in a desivator and noyhing will happen,



Have it leak, etc, get dirty and you'll have a have a v=battery,

Pire water is a poor conductor of electricity on the inside/ On the outside, it's not true any more.

Hi all...

Cold water pipes condensate under certain conditions... I say stick with the dielectric fittings. In terms of "alternative fittings" I meant that you could also use dielectric nipples... use a galvanized coupling on galvi. Pipe, install dielectric nipple with teflon tape and then install PEX adapter using teflon tape... just another alternative (and don't need access panel).

The 90 degree hanger is used anywhere you need it, but is most often used when people stub out of the wall for PEX shutoffs and such... ;) Since you are going with copper stub outs... you won't need any there, but you will need from horixontal to vertical for sure.

MARK

Excellent. I understand now. If I use a union, it must be accessible, if I use a nipple, not necessary.

Great!

Yup!

Got you!

See picture...

You would install 1/2" PEX x 1/2" female drop ear elbows to a stud in between joists and then install 1/2" brass nipples and couplings to about 1/4" above the floor. After the floor is installed you can grab the coupling, install 1/2" I.P.S. (iron pipe size) threaded chrome nipples into them and then slide a 1/2" I.P.S. chrome flange down and over the exposed part of the brass coupling to finish.

I think I mentioned 1/2" above floor last time...but go 1/4" as you can use a standard flange to cover the exposed part of the brass coupling.

You want to rough these adapters in so that they are spread apart in relation to the faucet you will be using so choose your faucet BEFORE you rough these in.

Thanks! This is amazing!

Any thoughts on the prices from that website?

Prices are right about what I pay wholesale... so prices are fine there.

Excellent.

Is this to good to be true? NEW Pex Pipe Crimp Pinch Clamp Crimper Tool 3/8" to 1" - eBay (item 260386109257 end time Apr-09-09 19:08:58 PDT)

That would work for PEX pipe with crimping rings.

If using viegapex... it won't work. You MUST have their crimping tool.

OK, I get it. Does the tool need to be made by Viega? For example, can this work?

PEX Crimp Tool Kit for sizes 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4" &1" - eBay (item 270325067600 end time May-02-09 08:26:10 PDT)

Nope... that tool is specific to crimp rings like the last one (not crimp sleeves... viega uses sleeves).. ;)

You are looking for something like this:VIEGA PEX PRESS TOOL 1/2" + FOSTAPEX PREP TOOL + CUTTER - eBay (item 270369896097 end time Apr-12-09 15:38:01 PDT)

However, don't pay the price mentioned at that eBay site... HUGE RIPOFF! You can purchase the entire kit (does 1/2" and 3/4" and includes all the gadgets) for about $200.00 either from viega or from a local viega distributor. On occasion viega has a 50% off promotion on the tools... if I see it again soon I'll let you know. Lastly, some local plumbing supply companies rent these to customers as long as they purchase materials through them. It can't hurt to call and talk to the counter guys and see if they are willing to help here..?

Otherwise, I'm sure the crimping ring method of PEX works great, too....maybe best to go with what is available locally. Hmmmmm..?

I see, I think I understand now. I think I'll head over to the local plumbing supply house this weekend and see what's up.

Also, I measured the incoming water main and it has an outer circumference of 3", and a diameter, I believe of 1". So, I should run 1" from the main to the manifold, right?


Mark-

Thanks for everything. Couple of remaining questions...

The incoming water line. It's copper and comes up vertically out of the ground in the basement. I measured the outer circumference and it is just a bit more than 3", which seems to be about 1" in diameter. How can I be sure? I want to make sure I purchase the right tubing, etc. Any suggestions? Also, I can run 1" from the main to the manifold, right?

Also, I have a concern about mounting the toilet. A while back you mentioned how it is important to take the toilet into consideration when framing the floor. So I was thinking it through a bit more and am concerned. The toilet should be set 12" from the framed wall, right? In this case, it will be set 12" from an exterior 2x6 wall. My math has the toilet drain falling dead center on the floor joist. Am I wrong? Any thoughts, suggestions?

Hi again... sorry for the delay. Been super busy and having a run of bad luck with the appliances and the computer at my house this week.

Anyway, let me know if you are using a pre-built manifold or if you are making one yourself..

I will answer the rest tomorrow night... PROMISE! I got to run now.. the verizon guy (cable/phone/computer) just told me my $600.00 TV that worked great until 1/2 hour ago is broken! I swear... just my luck lately!

Let me know...

Uggg. So sorry to hear things aren't going well... getting any better?

I will be buying a manabloc manifold, unless you suggest otherwise.

Thanks!

Hi Stubits...

3/4" copper tubing has a circumference of about 2.75" and 1"tubing has a circumference of about 3.5"... so appears that you do have 1" there.

The manibloc has 1" ports so you could connect both hot and cold in 1" tubing...IF your hot water heater is piped in 1".. Which I doubt... ;)

For a bathroom and a 1/2 I'm confident that you will be OK with 3/4" for both hot and cold water inlets to the manifold... especially since your water heater only has 3/4" inlet/outlet... right?

In terms of the toilet... I see that alot... ;) You may need to rough this in at 10" off the finish wall and purchase a 10" rough in toilet (more money), or finally, you could head off the joist and box out for the 12" toilet rough.

Keep 'em comin'

I will check the water heater tonight and see, but keep in mind the manabloc will be feeding 3.5 baths, 2 laundry rooms, kitchen sink and a bar sink.

I need to see what toilet my wife wants, if we can get a 10", I will likely go that way, if not, I can head off the joist no problem.

Thanks!

I had no idea you were picking up the whole house...

In that case... 1" is best for volume availability.

Eventually the manifold will run the whole house. I probably won't repipe the whole thing quite yet.

In that case, what do I need to do with regards to the hot water heater? Can I repipe it to be 1"?