I got to tell you Tom... closer is better for sure... so no disagreement there! As I said, I actually pipe these as you do... ;)

I just wanted Natalie to know that technically speaking... her plumber has only messed up by 1/8" by her measure...and like I said..I think all this can be resolved by sliding toilet back some.

I just did not want her yelling at someone just to find out that the spec. sheet is in fact 12" from finish wall and the plumber installed the rough plumbing fine... but may need to re-install the toilet to fix this!

Thanks Tom...

Mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Growler, I have never heard of anyone convincing a framing company to lay out field lines for the plumber....ever!! And who would want them, too...?? I wouldn't trust such an important job to anyone but myself....why I am the plumber...not them?? If you were told later that you missed every wall in the building...who is legally responsible...you or the framing crew you suckered into doing it?? Nope...thinking I'd rather trust me with that then them!!

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I suspect I deal with a different caliber of framing contractors than you, Mark.

We are a small shop who works with a limited number of GC's and Builders, five, to be exact.

We have a twenty year history with three of them, and a fifteen year history with the other two, so a lack of confidence in crews is usually confined to new hires, who are usually broken in by us and the other long term Subs within a week or so.

As for SOG homes, they represent less than 1% of the homes built in the PNW (whereas slab on grade homes represent upwards of 90% of the homes built in the rest of the country), so it's a rare occurrence when we have to deal with string lines without already poured footings or foundation walls to pull measurements from.

Y'know, we're in kind of a niche market here (which is why I made the decision to curtail my posting to this forum), no tract homes, developments or spec homes, so we can afford to pass the responsibility of laying out walls to those who will be actually building the walls.

Well, her you have it, NatalieBlueEyes... everybody does it "his" way and everybody believes "his" way is the right way ! And your toilet still remains 1 1/2" away from the wall... Isn't life beautiful? So, maybe you should put a big plant on the toilet bowl. That may cover it up ! :-D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milo Dolezal

Well, her you have it, NatalieBlueEyes......everybody does it "his" way and everybody believes "his" way is the right way ! And your toilet still remains 1 1/2" away from the wall.... Isn't life beautiful ?! So, maybe you should put a big plant on the toilet bowl. That may cover it up ! :-D

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*smacks forehead*

Jeeze, Milo, I'd forgotten all about you.

Anyhow -- The next time you're around an uncrated, assembled WC, grab a two foot level and a tape measure, and then measure from the back of the tank to the center of the stools bolt holes.

Mark that measurement down in a log book and then do the same for the next ten or twelve other brands of WC's you encounter in the next 32 years.

If you aren't brought around to mine, Marks and the WC manufacturers way of thinking by number five or six, then I reckon there is little hope for you.

Just my two pence.

Quote:

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If you aren't brought around to mine, Marks and the WC manufacturers way of thinking by number five or six, then I reckon there is little hope for you.

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Growler,
Then we are all lost down here because every plumber I know roughs a toilet in at 12" off the string. And did you read the part where Mark says he measures his rough a little short? Jeeze Growler! Bend a little! Just because it's recomended doesn't mean it's written in stone. And just because code directs you to do something a certain way doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way to do it. Sometimes ya gotta think outside the box and tapdance around code. I think it's called "flexibility". Regards, Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Growler,
Then we are all lost down here because every plumber I know roughs a toilet in at 12" off the string. And did you read the part where Mark says he measures his rough a little short? Jeeze Growler! Bend a little! Just because it's recomended doesn't mean it's written in stone. And just because code directs you to do something a certain way doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way to do it. Sometimes ya gotta think outside the box and tapdance around code. I think it's called "flexibility". Regards, Tom

---

Adhering to code and the manufacturers specifications is what keeps me from being sued by disgruntled homeowners, Tom.

It also keeps me from having my license suspended or revoked or from having my insurance company drop me.

I'm not sure what the climate is down South -- But Insurers who offer coverage to Contractors up here are dropping Contractors left and right for even the smallest infraction.

Again, I'm not sure what it's like down there, but losing your insurance for cause up here means you're pretty much blackballed by the other insurance companies, which means you go work for someone else or find another line of work.

Wow, you guys can have a spirited conversation. I wish I understood it all.

I don't want to yell at the wrong plumber -- because I had one plumber that did the rough-in and one that installed the toilet (long story about why two different plumbers) and I have a toilet that is 1 1/2" inches from the wall and less than 21" clearance in front of it. (Kohler specs say that it should be 3/4" from wall.) Plus the big gap behind the toilet looks stupid.

I measure 12 1/8" inches to the bolt from the finished wall (not including the floor trim). And I have two toilets that are installed this way.

When the toilet was installed, could the plumber have installed the toilet closer to the wall by just "scooting it back" or did it have to be installed that far from the wall because of the rough-in? Can I get a plumber to just pull the toilet and move it back without tearing up some of the floor? Is it an easy fix or a big pain in the butt?

Natalie

BTW, I wish one of you had installed my toilets because I would be very happy with toilets that are just 1/2" from wall or even 3/4" from the wall.

It would solve my problems.

Natalie

Natalie:

You asked, "When the toilet was installed, could the plumber have installed the toilet closer to the wall by just "scooting it back" or did it have to be installed that far from the wall b/c of the rough-in? Can I get a plumber to just pull the toilet and move it back without tearing up some of the floor? Is it an easy fix or a big pain in the butt?"

Answer:

Since you measured the toilet bolts at 12 1/8" to center of bolt I would recommend that you get a plumber in to lift the toilet, then set new bolts at the center of the flange and see what the TRUE measure is to center of flange from FINISHED WALL.

If at 12" or 12 1/8" then have the plumber reinstall the toilet being sure to "SCOOT" the toilet back just slightly to minimize the distance from the tank to the wall... ;)

When he is finished measure again and see what you have.

Hoping that finally resolves this for you!! It should!!

Also... be sure the plumber levels the toilet tank from back to front as an unlevel tank can easily pull the tank away from the wall a good 1/4" to 1/2" if installed wrong (use a 9" torpedo level to check the tank WITHOUT the lid in place).

Then let us know how this goes...

Thanks... MARK

PS: Hey everyone...here's what Iamgrowler looked like BEFORE a bath and a shave!! You hippie you!!... :D

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

PS: Hey everyone...here's what Iamgrowler looked like BEFORE a bath and a shave!! You hippie you!!...:D

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Yeah...

That's when I decided to stop mixing posting with drinking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by natalieblueeyes

Wow, you guys can have a spirited conversation. I wish I understood it all.

I don't want to yell at the wrong plumber -- because I had one plumber that did the rough-in and one that installed the toilet (long story about why two different plumbers) and I have a toilet that is 1 1/2" inches from the wall and less than 21" clearance in front of it. (Kohler specs say that it should be 3/4" from wall.) Plus the big gap behind the toilet looks stupid.

I measure 12 1/8" inches to the bolt from the finished wall (not including the floor trim). And I have two toilets that are installed this way.

When the toilet was installed, could the plumber have installed the toilet closer to the wall by just "scooting it back" or did it have to be installed that far from the wall b/c of the rough-in? Can I get a plumber to just pull the toilet and move it back without tearing up some of the floor? Is it an easy fix or a big pain in the butt?

Natalie

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The toilet has a 2" discharge and the flange is likely 3", so you could probably get away with scooting it back a good 5/8" to 3/4" without adversely affecting how it flushes.

Just to make sure I understand, the plumber can take up the toilet and "scoot" it back 5/8 to 3/4" without changing the hole in the bathroom floor (the rough-in) and he just changes the bolts?
Natalie

That is what we hope for you Natalie!

As you said, have him scoot it back. Lift the toilet, install the bolts... MEASURE/confirm measure from flange to finish wall... and then set the toilet again. Make sure he installs a new wax gasket as well.

During new install, have him scoot the toilet back toward wall to minimize that distance (Growler also suggested this) and be sure to level the tank as mentioned at my last post.

We hope this will fix all of this for you...WITHOUT making a big deal about it and having to move pipes/flanges.

Let us know how it turns out!

Thanks.. MARK

Thanks everyone.
I'll let you know what happens.
Natalie

One more point: Kohler Pinoir toilet bowl is made in 3 different rough-ins: 10-12-14" on center. Exchange your present bowl for 14" rough-in. It should absorb the gap.

( For those who still care: All this situation with Natalie's "gap" was created by Kohler specifying all of its toilets in their spec-book as 12" rough-in on center. Indeed, it is measured from the finished wall and accounts for 1" gap bet. Tank and the wall. From the esthetic's point-of-view" it produces undesirable result.

I stopped by Kohler showroom yesterday with level in one hand and tape in the other. I measured all Kohler toilets on display. The dimensions between bolts and tank varied from 9" to 10 3/4". None of them was 12". The salesman was very interested in what I am doing. So I presented him with our problem. He pulled out Kohler Catalog, and we selected one sample toilet (Kohler Memoir) and compared book specs info with Memoir toilet model present on display. (In the showroom, toilet tank was nicely displayed in mock-up bathroom and was flash with the wall). We measured. The actual distance was 10 3/4" from finished wall on center of the bolts. This findings repeated on Cimmaron and Wellworth Light toilets present on display. Would these toilets be installed as Kohler suggests - than there would be a large gap.

Good question, good discussion, good answers, good thread ! )

Just to support my previous response with visual. Kohler lists 12" rough-in. Actual distance is 10 1/4".

We always rough in at 12" on center from rough framing. We string walls ourselves. This pic was taken today. It is a bathroom addition project.

Milo...

Look at your top picture really carefully and then you tell me what is wrong with it? You have just CONFIRMED what me and Iamgrowler are talking about!!

Actually, no, let me tell you what is wrong..ok?

You have measured this toilet from the face of your level which is in front of finish baseboard... *UNBELIEVABLE*

So let's see... 10.25 inches plus 1" for width of level, plus 5/8" for the wood baseboard equals... *drum roll please*... 11.875 inches (leaving 1/2" behind the tank if I see that picture as correctly as I am sure I do actually makes this a perfect 12" rough with 7/8" behind the toilet tank! ). Check out imgrowler's post #20....you have just proved his specification sheet is EXACTLY dead on!!

And the other picture below showing a tape measure over the toilet pipe....MILO, you couldn't be more insulting if you tried. This picture only proves that you rough in your toilets contrary to engineered specifications...??? I would not brag about that!

I have nothing else to say on this... Thank you for driving my point home!

*UNBELIEVABLE*

MARK

Quote:

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Milo...

Look at your top picture really carefully and then you tell me what is wrong with it?? You have just CONFIRMED what me and Iamgrowler are talking about!!!

Actually, no, let me tell you what is wrong..ok??

You have measured this toilet from the face of your level which is in front of finish baseboard....*UNBELIEVABLE*

So let's see....10.25 inches plus 1" for width of level, plus 5/8" for the wood baseboard equals...*drum roll please*....11.875 inches (leaving 1/2" behind the tank if I see that picture as correctly as I am sure I do actually makes this a perfect 12" rough with 7/8" behind the toilet tank!!).

MARK

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*rolls eyes*

You caught that to, eh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Milo...

Look at your top picture really carefully and then you tell me what is wrong with it?? You have just CONFIRMED what me and Iamgrowler are talking about!!!

Actually, no, let me tell you what is wrong..ok??

You have measured this toilet from the face of your level which is in front of finish baseboard....*UNBELIEVABLE*

So let's see....10.25 inches plus 1" for width of level, plus 5/8" for the wood baseboard equals...*drum roll please*....11.875 inches (leaving 1/2" behind the tank if I see that picture as correctly as I am sure I do actually makes this a perfect 12" rough with 7/8" behind the toilet tank!!). Check out imgrowler's post #20....you have just proved his specification sheet is EXACTLY dead on!!!!

And the other picture below showing a tape measure over the toilet pipe....MILO, you couldn't be more insulting if you tried. This picture only proves that you rough in your toilets contrary to engineered specifications...??? I would not brag about that!

I have nothing else to say on this... Thank you for driving my point home!

*UNBELIEVABLE*

MARK

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MassPlumber2008, well, my apology for getting your blood going. :D Now, calm down, everything will be just fine...

Anyway, that first photo doesn't show it clearly, but the level actually slides - clearly - between the wall and toilet tank - even though it is sitting on top of the baseboard. I had a hard time sliding my 4' level in from the top because of shelf above the tank. Maybe I should have taken better photo that shows that better. I realize, this one may be read incorrectly...

Yes, we always rough-in our toilets as shown in the second pic to avoid the "NatalieBlueEyes" effect. This is based on what customer asks, architects request, and GCs expect. Otherwise, we would not get paid not to mention stayed in business for very long time. It is certainly not against the Plumbing Code to install toilet so it sits nicely close against the wall and its final effect pleases everybody involved. Or, perhaps, is it in your area?

Milo...

*RIDICULOUS*


Whether level slides in behind the toilet or not... down at the floor (where toilet measures are taken)... YOU HAVE STILL MEASURED FROM THE FRONT OF THE LEVEL WITH THE BASEBOARD BEHIND THAT... again, proving that a 12" rough meets the specification numbers in the sheet posted for you...

And if you are telling me that your GCs, your architects and customers have told you to ignore specification sheets then I don't believe you!! Although closer to wall....who says 1" is not as good as 1/2"... you?

In my area, any GC, architect or customer let me decide how to rough my plumbing... I assure you!

Simple as this... you just don't get it... I see that now!

*RIDICULOUS*



.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Milo...

*RIDICULOUS*

Whether level slides in behind the toilet or not...down at the floor (where toilet measures are taken)...YOU HAVE STILL MEASURED FROM THE FRONT OF THE LEVEL WITH THE BASEBOARD BEHIND THAT........again, proving that a 12" rough meets the specification numbers in the sheet posted for you...

And if you are telling me that your GCs, your architects and customers have told you to ignore specification sheets then I don't believe you!! Although closer to wall....who says 1" is not as good as 1/2"....you??

In my area, any GC, architect or customer let me decide how to rough my plumbing...I assure you!!

*RIDICULOUS*

.

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I am sorry to publicly admit to you - but yes, as a plumber, I do have to listen to my General Contractor, Architect, City Inspectors - and most importantly - to my customers. My willingness to listen and do what ever entire team suggests has never failed me. Unlike you, I am not allowed to do what ever I want to do. It is not my call. Every project is a team effort with one thing in mind: satisfactory completion of the project.

MILO... last time here...

Are you telling me that your GC, architect and customers tell you to short the rough in on your toilets..?

Is this a discussion you have had with any of them..?

Let me see... GC says... MILO... forget the 12" rough in speced for this toilet...I want it closer than engineered principles suggest..?? That 1" space the spec. sheet calls for is wrong...

Is that the conversation you had with your contractors... please!

Try not to be a smarta** OK Milo... cause I have no trouble PUBLICLY ADMITTING you are way off here... and you are being unprofessional...

Do you pout like this in the field when you don't get your way??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

MILO...last time here...

Are you telling me that your GC, architect and customers tell you to short the rough in on your toilets..??

Is this a discussion you have had with any of them...??

Let me see....GC says...MILO...forget the 12" rough in speced for this toilet...I want it closer than engineered principles suggest..?? That 1" space the spec. sheet calls for is wrong...

Is that the conversation you had with your contractors....please!!

Try not to be a smarta** OK Milo...cause I have no trouble PUBLICLY ADMITTING you are way off here...and you are being unprofessional.....

Do you pout like this in the field when you don't get your way??

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Not exactly, massplumber2008: What we engage in is called "dialog". I don't know if you noticed, but that's exactly what I am trying to establish here. ( No need to write in bold letters... ) In any case, my Architect , GC, and / or my client tell me to make sure that toilet tank sits flush with the wall. It is not "my" call. They will accept nothing less...

MILO...

Ridiculous to suggest that your CLIENTS want your toilet to sit FLUSH with the wall! Why have you got a license again..

And so you are clear, I always write in bold and in color occasionally (check any of my posts to anyone)... offsets and makes clear the points I want to make clear... like now... Nonsense!

You continue to try to mislead here... fact is that you still have not acknowledged that you measured from the front of the level with baseboard behind it and tried to convince everyone here that a 12" rough in is actually 10.25"... and you were wrong... haven't heard anything about that all of a sudden. FACT IS THAT YOU CAN SEE THE 10.25 MEASURE ON THE TAPE... AND LEVEL AND BASEBOARD ARE TIGHT... SO WHAT IS THE MEASURE... WHAT MORE CAN YOU SHOW US?

Further, you almost convinced Natalie that her plumber messed up when in fact he is only plumbing according to national standards and was DEAD ON SPEC.

Your opinion is one thing... but continuing to argue that the entire plumbing industry is wrong with respect to specification sheets and then that they could be so far off that YOU discovered that all toilets need to be roughed in at 10.25" from now on... c'mon Milo??


.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milo Dolezal

I am sorry to publicly admit to you - but yes, as a plumber, I DO have to listen to my General Contractor, Architect, City Inspectors - and most importantly - to my customers. My willingness to listen and do what ever entire team suggests has never failed me. Unlike you, I am NOT allowed to do what ever I want to do. It is not my call. Every project is a team effort with one thing in mind: satisfactory completion of the project.

---

Y'know, I'm trying really hard to understand where you're coming from, Milo.

Really, I am.

You say it isn't your call -- Well, if you are the one offering the warranty on your work, then yes, it *IS* your call.

Rigidly following manufacturer specs gives you something to point back to if something changes between the time you roughed things in and set the fixture.

Architects, H/O's, Designers and GC's can and do arbitrarily change things after rough-in.

The H/O might find a little more money in their budget and decide to put wainscotting or tile on the back wall -- Or if you accounted for tile or wainscotting in your rough-in, you might arrive on trim-out day to discover that the tile or wainscotting has morphed into slab granite or marble.

What if the Designer, H/O or Architect decides to change to a TOTO, Kohler or Sterling one piece, all of them WC's that will not mount on anything less than a 12" rough-in?

Seriously -- If you are the owner of the company, then the only thing between you and being on the winning side of a lawsuit is strict adherence to standard industry practices and manufacturer specifications.

OK Guys! Enough!!
I think we can all agree that different areas have different codes and practices. You may run water over head in the attic and drop down while we don't think it's the best way to pipe a dwelling, (We pipe under the slab.)
You may be forced to follow manufactures directions to center the closet bend 12" off a finished wall, while in my area we feel that 12 5/8ths. off the rough in string leaves us with too much space between tank and wall so we rough 12" off the string. SO WHAT?? I'm going to get sued for 5/8ths of a inch? Don't be ridiculous! Remember the hassle growler and I had about DW air gaps? Growler thought he was dead right because his code mandated a counter top air gap. I thought I was dead right becase a mechanical air gap can fail and a high loop can't, plus I had all these complaints about counter top air gaps clogging up and pumping the discharge all over the counter and not a one about a high loop air gap. We both thought we were correct and nobody won. Isn't that where we are now? The asker has been answered and here we still are. We're all experienced plumbers here. No one disputes that. But the disagreement between growler and myself didn't put the best face of the Plumbing Page forward and this discussion doesn't either. Growler and I agreed to disagree and let it drop. And so should you. Bottom line? It doesn't play well for our expertise when our plumbing experts take up space taking shots at one another. Every one of us is a experienced tradesman. Shouldn't we start acting like one? Between us we have so much to offer. Let's get back to the business of answering questions.. Regards to all, Tom

Speedball1: Thank you

Yeah thanks Tom... now Milo can just drop this like he should have in the first place!

Mark

Amen!

Every body!! Huggs and kisses all around!!

Tom, you're 80 and I'm 60, could we just shake on it and have a cold one? Pleasssse

What ever happened to Natalie? Looks like Natalie never responded with the result. I have a similar situation. Framing and rough-in plumbing is done. I would like to install a TOTO Nexus CST794SF in our basement bath. Installation instructions say that we need a 12" rough in from back wall. We have 13 3/4 from the back wall and 18 on center from the side wall. If I purchase this toilet, will it fit properly. Will I need to order an extra part for a 14" rough in? I don't want to order something that I will need to return. Help...

Most toilets are installed on 12" rough. If you have 13 3/4" rough than you will have space between tank and wall. You may check with TOTO if they sell this particular model of toilet in 14" rough in. If positive - and you don't like space behind toilet tank - than get 14" rough toilet.

The toilet must b a 10" rough toilet

Vince, Ya got to quit answering old dead threads. Cheer, Tom

Closed, this is a two year old thread, does no one ever look at dates