Ask Me Help Desk - Bathroom plumbing backs up when using washer

My William, But you're a wordy little fella. Takes a while to trudge through your posts. Let's see how your solutions add up.
Punchase a new stackedwasher, Install a new utility sink, which would involve tearing up the wall, cutting the stack vent, installing a sanitary tee, and running a separate vent up to the roof or revent back in the attic and then stubing out to pick up the sink, plus the water and the cost of the sink That's your solution. Now let's look at mine. If your drainage's clear, (and I have my doubts about that) and it will not accept the volume the washer's putting out then you reduce the volume by clamping the washer hose a tad.
Hmmmm! Buy a stacked washer and tear up your house to install a slop sink or reduce the dischargs flow on the washer? Now which one do you think that Semperfi's going to go for?
You've given us all your qualifications and, I for one am impressed as hell. You look at this as a technical problem to be repaired and damm the expense.
Me? I'm just a dumb plumber that wants to get the asker back in business as cheap and as speedy as possible. I don't know about the stacked unit but installing a slop sink as a holding vessel sounds like it would be just dandy. The only problem with your solutions is that they cost big be ucks and I don't think that was what was on Semperfi" mind when he asked his first question. But you've given your solution and I've given mine. And that's what The Plumbing Page's all about Billy Boy, To give the asker optrions. The Plumbing Page thanks you for your input. Regards, tom

I am a little wordy, that's the aircraft mechanic in me and causes me to be thorough as a product of my work and a hard habit to break. You seem a little critical of me for some reason, I get criticism from when you don't think I offer any solutions, then when I point out some suggestions I did make I get criticism because they cost money, you seem to forget the alternative he is looking at and that is several thousands if not over ten thousand dollars to fix that line, not to mention the total disruption of his life in the process, even you chose not to have your home tore up and looked for an easier albeit not so cheap way out. My repair was $18,000 torn up kitchen, living room and bed room floor, a week with no water or toilet, I had 2 small kids in school and a wife who worked, not to mention 2 dogs, try that on for a week and my insurance paid for it all, that doesn't include the time it took to put my house back together again that was just to get the plumbers out of my home. That was total disruption in my life.
Now his insurance isn't covering any of it so the small cost of a plumber to install a sink is minor compared to the alternative IF and I say If that's an option. I did say I wasn't privy to his home lay out, you seem to be. I did say there were flip sides to every coin (that means cost as a down side) I wasn't oblivious to the downsides to these suggestions, but lets think outside the box what if God for bid clamping that line still backs up that drain, what choice have you given him? Nothing, if your one and only option doesn't work by your means he is screwed because you left him with no other options, yea my options cost money but compared to the alternative it might save him big time in the long run. I even offered the lining of the pipe, that cost money and I don't recall you disregarding that option that costs several thousands more.
My sister lives in Lombard you heard of it, 50 year old home or so, split level, basement, in 1994 she couldn't use her laundry as it kept backing up, she eventually found out she had 2 dips in her pipes and they wanted to tear up her basement and bathroom and into her crawl space as the dips were separated by about 10 ft so they said it all had to come out. Being winter nobody wanted to do it and crawling in the crawl space to dig that is like 3 feet in hight was unthinkable to access the main line that ran from the back of her house to the front, the plumber actually recommended roto-rooter and several thousands of dollars to do the job. I went over there and her laundry area was unfinished and all her plumbing was exposed lucky for her. I installed a utility sink she got at Handy Andy for about $35, I plumbed it into the main drain line and fortunately she had a vent line already in place, now I am not a plumber but I knew that to be in code that the new vent line had to be higher then the highest fixture flood point which in this case was her stand pipe. I tied in a new vent pipe into the existing vent pipe higher then the stand pipe and to this day she has not had a single back up as all her laundry waste now empties into that sink. She still thanks me for saving her that money and wonders why the plumber never offered her that suggestion, some just don't think outside the box I guess. Total cost of the job LESS then $100 and yes I did sweat copper to the existing supply line for a faucet and since I did the job it saved her money, but a plumber to do that same job even if bent her over only a few hundred. She was fortunate to have access to these pipes and not have to break into walls. I guess you know a lot more about semperfi's home then I do because I strictly said I didn't know what his options were or his home lay out, you seem to be able to give a proposal of work knowing where his kitchen is where the vent line runs etc.. Without ever looking at the job which I have to say is quite impressive from your computer..
My question is what if your suggestion doesn't work what should he do, I don't see any other suggestions by you, could you offer some please, I am curious as what other free option he has available to him, should he just not do laundry because anything else costs money. I see You charge $.95c minute for advise and I don't know what plumbers charge so using that cost factor, if you spent 10 hours to install a utility sink that's $600-700 for your time, and materials are not that expensive for pvc and that seems excessive but will go with it, drywall is cheap and he could find a local handyman to do the drywall job or a friend if he is resourceful so if access was made for you, maybe spend a couple hundred on drywall, he could be out for under $1000 and not ever have to worry about that drain line ever again. Is $1000 a lot considering multiply that by say 10- 15 to repair the line I say no, part of home ownership nothing is free. My sister got out for $100 and got very lucky, will he be as lucky who knows, like I said based on my experience all I offered was some FREE advise and who did it hurt, did he have to take it, no but does it hurt to have options and that is all I offered, what if he has a utility room with exposed plumbing, wow what a savings that would be and since the other lines don't back up, he has a simple long term solution and should he ever want to sell his home nobody would ever be the wiser. If his washer is old then getting a new one isn't a total waste of money, maybe its something he has to get sooner or later. Who knows, that is only why I put these options out there for him to get as much info and make a decision. If I could have gotten away with spending $1000 on a utility sink instead of a week of disaster in my home and have the same effect by all means I would have spent the grand and have a sink to wash up in to boot...
I really would like to know what his other options are should clamping that doesn't help as I am wondering if he isn't thinking the same thing what then? My floor drain backed up within 5 seconds of my washer discharge, that is what I was dealing with. I had to lift my lid every 5 -6 seconds on discharge as my wife watched the floor drain with a flashlight and I had to stop it before it overflowed. I could have pinched my line all day and it would have done no good as my floor drain is right next to my washer, that was my experience. How much time does he have I wonder where is his floor drain? Believe me when I say I hope your idea works for him, I honestly do, I don't like people having to spend money especially in today's economy, but in my life experience I have always hoped & prayed for the best but prepared for the worst, then there are no surprises...
Bill

Another book by Bill to read.(sigh! )

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I really would like to know what his other options are should clamping that doesn't help?

We'll never know if clamping will help until he tries it, will we.
Yeah I fixed on the cost of your solution. Yours= $1000.00 and up depending on labor and material to instal;l a slop sink and As for replacing his working washer with a stacked unit figure any where from $650.00 to $1350.00. If he follows your advice as a ballpark figure of $1960.00
Mine?= Five bucks for a clamp
$1960.00 versus $5.00 Hmmmm! Doesn't take a airplane mechanic to figure which to try first.
Ya want other options? You mean besides the "bandaid" solution to install a hiolding tank in the way of a slop sink?
Sure! Instead of "bandaid repairs" let's get a sharp plumber in there to find out exactly where the problem is. Is it in the basic design? Since it worked for a few weeks after it was snaked I would say No. The bell in the sewer line? Unless there was a partial blockage in the line causing backpressure I would think the volume would force the discharge past the bell,( lots of homes have a running trap installed on their sewer lines with no problems) so thatwould be a No also.
What's left? Too much force from the pump for the system to handle? Nope! It worked for a few weeks after it was snaked, remember?:
There are a few things left that we haven't explored because Semperfi hasn't furnished us with the needed information. So let's hear back from you Semperfi, Is this a new washer and how old is your home plus what material's your drainage?
You asked it in one of your earlier themes. Was this a new washer?> I also have a question.
What material is your drainage? If It's cast iron in a older home I may have the answer.
If he has older cast iron that's deteriorating then a chunk of the pipe could have broken of, fell down where it's now catching TP,solids and other crap and building up to a partial blockage..
So if it were snaked it would clear the line until it built back up.
This is what happened to my sewer line so I know it can, and does, happen.
I like to get at the source of a problem and only offer a "bandaid solution." If that's all that's available. Perhaps relining's the answer. Regards. Tom

If you read on page one 3rd post, before you came online on page 2 my understanding is that he already has the source of his problem because he has had a plumber come out with a camera and he has a belly in the line holding water and catching everything that comes down the line and its under his house, now unless this plumber is worthless and given him bad advise or can't read a camera and diagnose a main line you kind of have to go with the fact he has a back pitched line or belly adding restriction or stoppage to the water flow causing back up with the volume of water that hits that pool of water sitting in the line, I am going by what he wrote based on what a plumber said not what an aircraft mechanic is guessing from his computer... I am going to have to side with the plumber on this one. Are you going to argue with that plumbers assessment now and if so based upon what? So you have to assume he has what the plumber describes is in fact accurate unless you have no faith in your peers, now what, and your pinched pipe does no good, you jump right into lining at $150 per foot, have no problem spending that money. Also again if you read ALL the posts HE asked if a high efficiency washer would help NOT ME!! So he suggested spending that money first, please read all posts before pointing fingers at who's making what decisions and picking them apart and dissecting them only to make your decision look like the only option, this isn't about who is right, like your comment who's decision will he follow? Yours? Mine? who cares, this is about giving this poor fellow as much information as possible so he can make a decision now and for his future and without all the choices he can't make a good decision... Unless he gets a plumber out to ever discuss that option of a sink, if its an option how would he ever know to ask unless someone offered that option, the plumber my sister had sure didn't offer that option to her... maybe he was just a bad plumber..
Also if he has room he has no need to purchase a new washer to install a sink. Does he have room?? I don't know I only ASK!! you seemed to omit that from your estimates but felt free to add it in to boost the total cost. I only included a stackable as an option to a sink in case he liked that idea of a sink but didn't have the room next to his current set up is all, nothing more. Based upon my sisters total cost kind of hard to argue even a $5 temporary fix that might damage a washer (and in my professional experience it will in the long run) vs $100 for a sink and $35 for a utility sink is hardly "big bucks" unless you purchase them from a plumber and pay the 20% mark up.I see you don't disagree with my installation of piping into the current vent as I did it to code and not going into her attic running a new vent that's just smart work in my opinion and to code... Even a couple hundred for a utility sink that prevents him from relining his pipes in the future is still a smarter decision if that cures his problem and I believe it would as my dishwasher that dumped into that same line that my washer back up into never would back up nor using the sink or dishwasher, only the washer, so a sink would in all likelihood solve his problems and save tons of money. Should he leave his line pinched and it works and goes to sell his house and an inspector comes across it and finds out why guess what he will never sell that house with that hanging over his head because as a prospective buyer I would walk away in a heartbeat and so would you I would imagine knowing what I know about bad main lines... Sometimes you have to look at a bigger picture then saving a few $$ now as sooner or later you have to pay the piper. I don't know what his plans are for the future, how long he has been in the house or plans to be, but had you read all the posts you would have had more information. As a temp fix I did agree to clamp the line and hope for the best, seemed to omit that too... to buy him some time, I don't like that as a permanent fix is all.
Then again that's the mechanic side of me...
Bill

Like I said. I liketo get at the source of the problem rather then a band aid solution like a holding reservoir in the shape of a slop sink or even clamping off the hose although my solution's a lot cheaper then yours. As for trusting another plumbers work? Not unless I'm there to check it out. Would you trust another airplane mechanic to work on a plane that you were working on without double checking? I think not! Neither would I. I wouldn't trust your plumbing work either unless I checked it myself.

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I am not a plumber but I knew that to be in code that the new vent line had to be higher then the highest fixture flood point which in this case was her stand pipe. I tied in a new vent pipe into the existing vent pipe higher then the stand pipe and to this day she has not had a single back up as all her laundry waste now empties into that sink.

I seriously question that you found a dry vent to vent the sink to. And what's this?

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knew that to be in code that the new vent line had to be higher then the highest fixture flood point which in this case was her stand pipe

If that "dry vent" , ( And I've yet to see a pipe that ran into the basement that didn't drain something) has something over head draining into it you have installed the job out of code. Yeah Bill! Where plumbings concerned I don't take anybodys word for it.
And Bill, I do appreciate your input. It's your attitude that need some work.

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I see You charge $.95c minute for advise and I don't know what plumbers charge so using that cost factor, if you spent 10 hours to install a utility sink that's $600-700 for your time,

See what I mean? Talk about blowing things out of proportion. That 95 cents was for a phone consultation not a labor charge.
Read all your posts? I'm going to have them taken to a book bindery and have them bind your posts into a book so I can read them before I go to bed. Better then a sleeping pill
But enough "chit chat" We are just sniping back and forth at each other with helping the asker.. We have both stated our opinions and why. Let's let Semperfi decide. Our exchange ends now!! Have a great weekend, Tom

As I said Bill, our exchange has ended.

Let me give you bridged version of Bill's response: you have clogged drain. Most likely, it is clogged past where washer connects to tub/shower drain - but before the drain hits toilet pipe.You need to snake it right - not just to poke a hole in the middle trough the blockage. Snake it with proper size knife attachment.

Like Milo sez! But if the pipes have already been snaked then it just might be a broken piece of pipe. What material is your drainage? If It's cast iron in a older home I may have the answer.
If you have older cast iron that's deteriorating then a chunk of the pipe could have broken of, fell down where it's now catching TP,solids and other crap and building up to a partial blockage..
So if it were snaked it would clear the line until it built back up.
I still think I would try to cut down on the volume discharged by clamping the hose.
Bill seems to think the back pressure will burn up the motor but we've been doing that for years when bwe advise closing off the hose and standpipe with a compression fitting. Not a single report of motor damage so I wouldn't worry too much. Good luck in whatever you decide. Tom

My rule of thumb is if your post won't fit on a half screen no one will want to read it. LOL

Ok, so here are the latest developments. Let me answer a few background questions first... We just purchased the home in Dec, it was a foreclosure in horrible shape, that side of the house had a lot of mold in the drywall and floor, so there was evidence of past water. We ripped everything apart and did a complete renovation. Now that all the work is done this started happening when the washer was ran. The washer is approximately 6 or 7 years old and yes it is a Maytag as you mentioned Tom. The layout of the house is a split layout, there are 2 bathrooms on one side that is a straight shot to the main sewer line. The other side has 1 bathroom, laundry line and kitchen feeding into the line. This line runs under the main living area of the house and then feeds into the line on the other side and the sewer.
When we had the camera ran there seemed to be significant build up on this line mostly grease, so we did have the line jetted. There also seemed to be some build up on the Y where the line from the spare connected to the line from the main side of the house. Once we viewed the line again after jetting it we realized that the "belly" is actually PVC pipe, so there was a previous repair. What we couldn't tell is if the belly is due to PVC sagging, or just poor installation/repair (I don't suppose whoever repaired it before would have a warranty on repair?). After the jetting we ran a full load of washer water into the line and it seemed to go through fine. We could still see that the PVC has standing water in it though. The tech put the camera on the other side of the water, and we drained another 1/2 load. It seemed that the flow on the other side was decent so it seems the water volume does push through the belly. I'm hoping that the grease build up was the major contributor and jetting it at least buys us some more time to save money for the actual fix. The only "fix" suggestion we received from the local plumber is to re-route the line from that side of the house. So their suggestion is to cap off the laundry and the bathroom and re-route it through the yard to the main sewer. The kitchen would still drain into the other line, but they said because its typically a only a gravity drain, that should be too much of a problem. Does this sound reasonable or are they just trying to get more money? The quote they gave for re-routing ~7500 for approximately 75 ft of new sewer...
Again thank you both for suggestions, this is really helping me to get a better understanding overall and make more educated decisions.

That option is probably way less than digging up the old line, I think this plumber gave you a cost saving option. Tom, mark amd Milo will all know more about current pricing. It is not uncommon for a foreclosure to have many surprises, mostly plumbing and heating.

Also forgot to mention, all of the pipe is cast iron except for the section that is now the belly and that is PVC. The home is 1973

Do you think that since the line was so clogged with grease that we couldn't even see the repair was part of the problem or is it just wish-full thinking on my side and we'll see the same problem in a couple of weeks?

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forgot to mention, all of the pipe is cast iron

And when they ran the camera they didn't see nany other breaks or cast iron flaking off to impede the flow? Well, something happened to that cast iron that caused them to tear up the slab and replace with PVC. I'd sure want to know why.

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The only "fix" suggestion we received from the local plumber is to re-route the line from that side of the house. So their suggestion is to cap off the laundry and the bathroom and re-route it through the yard to the main sewer

That was my "other option". I went for the reline.

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The kitchen would still drain into the other line, but they said because its typically a only a gravity drain, that should be too much of a problem. Does this sound reasonabl?

If you have a disposal your kitchen will generate more solids then your toilet so If I was going to be torn up I'd want the kiitchen drain line replaced with 3" PVC..

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but they said because its typically a only a gravity drain

I don't understand why they said that. Unless you have a sewage pump all of your drainage is powered by gravity.
Please let us know how everything works in the future. Good luck, Tom