Quote:

---

the high loop doesn't prevent a plugged sink trap or disposal from backing up waste into the dishwasher,

---

OK! I'm ready to learn if the laws of physics have been changed. All you have to do is explain to me how a sink, (unless you let it back up and overflow the rim) can possibly back up high enough to overflow into a high loop? You repair plumbers out there. How many times have you walked into a kitchen sink stoppage where the OP has allowed the sink to oveflow the rim? Inquiring minds want to know. Cheers Tom

Sensible question. I'm certainly not a plumbing expert, but some naïve faith in our government by and for the people makes me keep looking for a reason that plumbing codes seem to universally ignore your high loop solution. What if I took a plunger to my plugged sink? Might that force waste into the dishwasher without violating the laws of physics?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speedball1

OK! I'm ready to learn if the laws of physics have been changed. All you have to do is explain to me how a sink, (unless you let it back up and overflow the rim) can possibly back up high enough to overflow into a high loop? You repair plumbers out there. How many times have you walked into a kitchen sink stoppage where the the OP has allowed the sink to oveflow the rim? Inquiring minds wanna know. Cheers Tom

---

Actually, it happens all the time.

A clog in the main and draining a bathtub or taking a shower in the bathroom above the kitchen will cause the water to back up into and overflow the kitchen sink.

I've seen it happen, Tom.

Also, Tom, saying "a "johnson Tee" looks like a copper high loop dumped into a washer stand pipe with a external vent" is incorrect:

The "external vent" as you call it (actually an air gap/break) is installed a minimum of 1" above the countertop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by awb

Sensible question. I'm certainly not a plumbing expert, but some naive faith in our government by and for the people makes me keep looking for a reason that plumbing codes seem to universally ignore your high loop solution. What if I took a plunger to my plugged sink? Might that force waste into the dishwasher without violating the laws of physics?

---

Sure it would.

As for 'plumbing codes seeming to universally ignore his high loop solution' -- You are incorrect.

A "High Loop" is an acceptable alternative to a counter mounted air gap or Johnson Tee in areas of the country where the Standard or International Plumbing Code prevails.

Which incidentally covers about 90% of the Continental US and 100% of Canada.

You are both correct. A overflowing sink or using the plunger as a pump will put water back in the DW. But how often does that happen? Can you frind any complaints over the years? I can't!

Quote:

---

Also, Tom, saying "a "johnson Tee" looks like a copper high loop dumped into a washer stand pipe with a external vent" is incorrect:
The "external vent" as you call it (actually an air gap/break) is installed a minimum of 1" above the countertop.

---

Hold da phone! You mean after all that extra pipe work in the wall for a Johnson Tee to avoid drilling the counter for a unsightly counter top air gap that you STILL have to drill the counter top so a air gap can protrude? Or is everything inside the wall? Seems like a waste of $, labor and material to me. And what drains into this "air Gap" anyhow? I thought the copper high loop waas the air gap. How many of these abortions do you guys install out there in La La Land? Regards, Tom

Quote:

---

Hold da phone! You mean after all that extra pipe work in the wall for a Johnson Tee to avoid drilling the counter for a unsightly counter top air gap that you STILL have to drill the counter top so a air gap can protrude?

---

No.

The air gap is the portion of the Johnson Tee that protrudes through the exterior of the wall. And it protrudes through the exterior wall no less than 1" above the top of the flood rim of the kitchen sink.

Quote:

---

Or is everything inside the wall?

---

Everything but the actual air gap, which protrudes through an exterior wall.

Quote:

---

Seems like a waste of $, labor and material to me.

---

I imagine you feel that way about most of the things you don't understand, Tom.

Quote:

---

And what drains into this "air Gap" anyhow?

---

That would be the dishwasher, Tom.

Quote:

---

I thought the copper high loop waas the air gap.

---

No, the copper piping is a continuation of the dishwasher discharge hose.

If it was an air gap there would be a separation of not less than 1".

Quote:

---

How many of these abortions do you guys install out there in La La Land?

---

Having just proven you don't have even the slightest idea how a Johnson Tee works, I'd say you are hardly in a position to criticize.

Quote:

---

You are both correct. A overflowing sink or using the plunger as a pump will put water back in the DW. But how often does that happen? Can you frind any complaints over the years? I can't!

---

If it happens even once, then it is a contamination/health issue -- An issue that can be easily avoided altogether by installing an approved air gap.

Quote:

---

You are both correct. A overflowing sink or using the plunger as a pump will put water back in the DW. But how often does that happen? Can you frind any complaints over the years? I can't!

If it happens even once, then it is a contamination/health issue -- An issue that can be easily avoided altogether by installing an approved air gap.

---

Please show me on any one of our complaints where this has happened? And while you're at it you can post up OP complaints about a high loops. What's that? Can't find any? Look again! Surely over the years there must have been at least one.

Quote:

---

How many of these abortions do you guys install out there in La La Land?

Having just proven you don't have even the slightest idea how a Johnson Tee works, I'd say you are hardly in a position to criticize. Seems like a waste of $, labor and material to me.

I imagine you feel that way about most of the things you don't understand, Tom.

---

Growler, I've been aroiund so long that insults don't faze me
Don't ever leave you're what gives this page all its class! Cheers. Tom

Quote:

---

Growler, I've been aroiund so long that insults don't faze me.

---

Those weren't insults, Tom, they were merely observations.

Now.. .

Considering the courtesy I showed in addressing your questions, why don't you go back and address the numerous points I made, 'Kay?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iamgrowler

Those weren't insults, Tom, they were merely observations.

Now.. .

Considering the courtesy I showed in addressing your questions, why don't you go back and address the numerous points I made, 'Kay?

---

>checks watch<

Does this mean you have nothing more to add?

Y'know, I'd of dropped this over a year ago if you had shown me and the rest of the Experts posting here who are legally obliged to uphold the Uniform Plumbing Code a little courtesy, Tom.

But you didn't -- Not only that, you chose to abuse and continue to this very day to abuse your position as forum moderator.

And speaking of courtesy, do me and the rest of the Experts here a favor and spare us the lie that you are only 'yanking our chain' -- We're smarter than that and are fully capable of recognizing when someone is 'rubbing our noses in it' for no better reason than because they can.

You're a petty, small minded man, Tom, and it's long past time somebody finally said that to you.

Quote:

---

>checks watch<Does this mean you have nothing more to add?

---

No! It means I had company and didn't consider you important enough to bother with. But have some time now to respond to your accusations.

Quote:

---

Considering the courtesy I showed in addressing your questions, why don't you go back and address the numerous points I made,

---

OKI! Let's start wth the copper high loop.

Quote:

---

I said, "I thought the copper high loop waas the air gap.
And you replied , "No, the copper piping is a continuation of the dishwasher discharge hose.
If it was an air gap there would be a separation of not less than 1".

---

Gee Growler, That sure looks like a gap between the copper and the PVC trap.
But if you say that it's not a air gap then it must be filled with water. You're correct when you say I'm not familiar with Johnson Air Gaps. We don't liketo complicate things over here like you dudes out in La-La Land.( Now there I go again! ) But if you say there's no air gap between the copper and the trap who am I to dispute what I'm looking at and a expert on Johnson Tees.

Quote:

---

Also, Tom, saying "a "johnson Tee" looks like a copper high loop dumped into a washer stand pipe with a external vent" is incorrect:

---

When you're right you're right! It couldn't be a high loop if the stand pipe wer full of water as you describe. But say, Just for the sake of argument that it wasn't filled with water. If it were air in there it would sure qualify as a high loop to me.

But let's get to the heart of your post. I'n a lot more tolerant of attacks on me then of our other experts so I won't mention that such attacks are frowned on at AMHD.

Quote:

---

And speaking of courtesy, do me and the rest of the Experts here a favor and spare us the lie that you are only 'yanking our chain' -- We're smarter than that and are fully capable of recognizing when someone is 'rubbing our noses in it' for no better reason than because they can.

---

Nah! I poke fun at UPC because I think some of their codes are downright laughable. Any other of you UPC guys feel personally insulted like Growler is?

Quote:

---

you chose to abuse and continue to this very day to abuse your position as forum moderator. You're a petty, small minded man, Tom, and it's long past time somebody finally said that to you.

---

And now that you've painted yourself in a corner I guess your next step would be to complain to the super mods and administrater about my abuse of power. After that one of several things will happen.
1) I will be asked to retire, ( hey! That's OK too! This page doesn't really need me any more. I'm surrounded by the best plumbing experts on the web, and that includes you Growler, so if I'm out of here I can look back with pride on what's been built over the years.
2) You will be asked to tone down the attacks and lose the arrogant attitude.
And you are arrogant Growler you're "thin skined and arrogant" if disagreed with.
Perhaps you could work on that. In the mean time if working around me is so uncomfortable for you All Experts could use your expertise. I posted over there for a spell and would gtive you a glowing recommendation. Have a great day! Tom

Quote:

---

But let's get to the heart of your post. I'n a lot more tolerant of attacks on me then of our other experts so I won't mention that such attacks are frowned on at AMHD.

---

>shrugs<

If you feel a frank assessment of your posting style and approach to problem solving is an attack, then report the incident to the Admins, Tom.

Quote:

---

Nah! I poke fun at UPC because I think some of their codes are downright laughable. Any other of you UPC guys feel personally insulted like Growler is?

---

Tom, you do far more than "poke fun at the UPC".

You actually go out of your way to coach Posters in how to circumvent the code.

I've said this before, and I think it bears repeating: When a Municipality adopts a code, whether it's Plumbing, Electrical, Framing, HVAC etc.. . That code is codified as law and is legally enforceable -- Granted, you aren't going to be jailed, but you can have your Plumbers License suspended or revoked or financial penalties assessed if the Local Authority decides to take that action.

Y'know, most of the other Experts here seem to grasp this point fairly well, so why is it so hard for you?

If Mark, Ball, Milo, MGD, Letmetellu et al can take the time to patiently walk a Poster through a problem without resorting to coaching them in how to break the law, then why can't you?

Quote:

---

And now that you've painted yourself in a corner I guess your next step would be to complain to the super mods and administrater about my abuse of power.

---

Tom, if you sincerely believe I overstepped by pointing out the obvious, then report the incident to the Super Mods and the Administrators and let the chips fall where they may.

Quote:

---

Tom, you do far more than "poke fun at the UPC".

You actually go out of your way to coach Posters in how to circumvent the code.

I've said this before, and I think it bears repeating: When a Municipality adopts a code, whether it's Plumbing, Electrical, Framing, HVAC etc.. . That code is codified as law and is legally enforceable -- Granted, you aren't going to be jailed, but you can have your Plumbers License suspended or revoked or financial penalties assessed if the Local Authority decides to take that action.

Y'know, most of the other Experts here seem to grasp this point fairly well, so why is it so hard for you?

If Mark, Ball, Milo, MGD, Letmetellu et al can take the time to patiently walk a Poster through a problem without resorting to coaching them in how to break the law, then why can't you?

---

And I've repeatedly told you that The Plumbing page isn't about bringing the nation under code. This page is about getting the OP repaired and back running with the least hassle and expense. Just recently I asked the questiom, " if the Asker has a 100 year old farm house with "S" traps throughout Should I insist he tear up his walls to install vents out the roof for a clogged drain when all he has to do is snake it?
Here's a house that gets along very well, thank you , with "S" traps. We all know they're outlawed and out of code, but again, We're here to help with the immediate problem not bring him into code.
As as far as recommending high loops instead of countertop air gaps I do that because high loops function all the time while Air-gaps fail. Just look at bthe complaints we get on counter top air-gaps. Now go back and review all the posts we have ever received and pull up one single complaint about a high loop misfunctioning. Also in all the hundreds of high loops my company's installed over the years we have yet to receive our first complaint. Is it any wonder I tout high loops over a counter top one? Ta hell with da code if I can come up with something that
Works better for the asker.
Bend a little bit Growler, be a little more flexible. You're not teaching a class in code in this page!

Quote:

---

And now that you've painted yourself in a corner I guess your next step would be to complain to the super mods and administrater about my abuse of power.

Tom, if you sincerely believe I overstepped by pointing out the obvious, then report the incident to the Super Mods and the Administrators and let the chips fall where they may.

---

Hey! You're the one complaining here. You're the one tossing out the insults.

Quote:

---

you chose to abuse and continue to this very day to abuse your position as forum moderator. You're a petty, small minded man, Tom, and it's long past time somebody finally said that to you.

---

Ya got to complaint against me, Take it upstairs but while you're posting here, lose the arrogance and drop the attitude . PS. My offer about All-Experts still stands.

Quote:

---

And I've repeatedly told you that The Plumbing page isn't about bringing the nation under code. This page is about getting the OP repaired and back running with the least hassle and expense.

---

That is a very lazy approach to problem solving, Tom.

Quote:

---

Just recently I asked the questiom, " if the Asker has a 100 year old farm house with "S" traps throughout Should I insist he tear up his walls to install vents out the roof for a clogged drain when all he has to do is snake it?
Here's a house that gets along very well, thank you , with "S" traps. We all know they're outlawed and out of code, but again, We're here to help with the immediate problem not bring him into code.

---

The s-trap was code when the home was built -- Conversely the air-gap was code when it was installed.

Also, when it comes right down to it, the s-trap scenario could be brought up to code in about two hours for roughly $50.00 in parts and without having to run a vent up through the roof.

Quote:

---

As as far as recommending high loops instead of countertop air gaps I do that because high loops function all the time while Air-gaps fail. Just look at bthe complaints we get on counter top air-gaps. Now go back and review all the posts we have ever received and pull up one single complaint about a high loop misfunctioning. Also in all the hundreds of high loops my company's installed over the years we have yet to receive our first complaint. Is it any wonder I tout high loops over a counter top one?

---

A high-loop malfunction is going to manifest itself as a health issue, not a Plumbing issue, Tom.

Should someone appear here complaining of botulism, ptomaine, E. coli or norovirus poisoning, they are going to be redirected to the Health forum.

Quote:

---

Ta hell with da code if I can come up with something that
Works better for the asker.

---

I really wish you could see how that appears to myself and the rest of the experts here, not to mention the people asking for help.

Quote:

---

Bend a little bit Growler, be a little more flexible. You're not teaching a class in code in this page!

---

Tom, if your idea of being flexible is to take the path of least resistance without even trying to do something correctly, then I don't want any part of it.

Some of us actually take pride in an honest day of hard work -- And manage to do so without compromising our principals.

Growler,
If you have a gripe about me take it up with the super mods and keep it out of this page. It's negative and unproductive. I don't allow bickering to continue between two experts and you and I are no different. Therefore, our exchange ends now. If you have anything more to say on the subject take it upstairs but this discussion is over. Regards, Tom

Quote:

---

Growler,
If you have a gripe about me take it up with the super mods and keep it out of this page.

---

Well, back atcha, Tom.

Quote:

---

It's negative and unproductive.

---

It is also distracting and shows a definite lack of cohesion between the boards Experts.

So knock it off already, Tom.

Quote:

---

I don't allow bickering to continue between two experts and you and I are no different.

---

Too bad you didn't think of that before you made the 'abortion/la la land' comment, Tom.

You cannot simultaneously incite bickering and claim you do not allow bickering, Tom.

Well, I guess you can, but it does tend to make you sound like a hypocrite.

Quote:

---

Therefore, our exchange ends now. If you have anything more to say on the subject take it upstairs but this discussion is over. Regards, Tom.

---

Nah, I've already seen the 'Circle the Wagons' dog and pony show up close and personal a few times before, not very productive at all, but hey, bring 'em on in yourself if you think it'll change your propensity for inciting discord and negative, unproductive dialogue between the boards Experts.

As I said, "Our exchange ends now!" Any farther posts on this subject will be deleted. Tom

Children: Stop fighting !

Hello all, I am glad that finally this discussion is over with, thanks to Speedball1 and Iamgrowler.

Best Regards,
John

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by afaroo

Hello all, I am glad that finally this discussion is over with, thanks to Speedball1 and Iamgrowler.

Best Regards,
John

---

It is indeed over John. Peace and tranquillity reigns supreme once again.
Have yourself a great week end, Tom

I really appreciate that this forum has a variety of expert responses from different perspectives. It is important to know that a "quick fix" may not conform to code, but it still can be useful as a short-term remedy. Both iamgrowler and speedball1 have made valuable contributions to my solving a plumbing problem--can you guys be nice and cut the mudslinging? I really want your ideas, both of you!

Awb,
Your input's appreciated but in Growlers and my exchange I caught most of the mud. Even when I poke fun at growler I respect him as a plumber and as a expert. He has his methods and I have mine. But there are certain bonds here at AMHD that can't be crossed.
Growler crossed those bounds and as much as I attempted to defuse the situation it just seemed to escalate until the super mods stepped in and shut it down. I see you have a problem with your Johnson Tee. We don't use them in my area, we use high loops that don't fail, so Mile or Mygirlsdad (Lee) can field this one. Regards, Tom