I am installing a new toilet in a very old bathroom. There is exactly 11" from the wall to the exact center of the outlet. The outlet itself is 4" in diameter, so 12" from the wall is still over the opening.

My question is: Can I use a toilet with a 12" rough-in distance for this situation. I'm considering the American Standard cadet 3. I know that I could get a 10" rough-in toilet, but those seem hard to find and more expensive.

http://www.americanstandard-us.com/A...Sheet_1749.pdf

Many thanks for your help.

This is just one of those things that you will have to "dry fit"to see it it works. You have a little wiggle room on the flange slots . Slide the closet bolts and toilet as far forward as the horn in the bowl will allow you. That should tell you if you have room enough for the tank. If not then consider a 1" offset closet flange. Good luck, tom

Positive: you will be able to install 95% of all toilets on market on 11" rough-in, measured from finished wall. In fact, you will have toilet tank about 1/8" - 1/4" away from the wall. Most people prefer it that way. It is a clean look.

Most manufacturers suggest 12" on center of the bolts from finished wall. That creates about 1" - 2 1/4" gap between tank and wall. That is esthetically very disturbing to many.

Of course, and contrary to manufacturer's installation instructions, when you go to Plumbing Showroom to look at their toilets on display - they will all be set flush against the wall. If these toilets were presented with 2" gaps between tank and wall - not too many people would buy one

"If these toilets were presented with 2" gaps between tank and wall - not too many people would buy one."
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I googled 12" rough-in's to find this topic. I just installed a Kohler Cimmaron (high-boy) w/ tank. The rough in for the old american standard was 12" from finished wall to floor bolts. I bought a 12' rough Cimmaron from Indiana Pipe® and when I dry installed it, the tank is 2" away from the wall.
The Cimmaron has it's own stamp steel base for the tank to seat on two or three stamped knub-feet, but the tank isn't really supported if someone (and they will) leans back on the seat lid and the tank. You'll find these tanks leaning after about a year.
How could Kohler engineer a problem design and release it on plumbers is unfathomable.
I'm calling Indiana® on Monday moriing to find out.

Click on; Toilet review, Kohler Cimarron [Archive] - Terry Love's Plumbing & Remodel DIY forum
Toread more Kohler Cimmaron horror stories. Good luck, Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 59glide

"If these toilets were presented with 2" gaps between tank and wall - not too many people would buy one."
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I googled 12" rough-in's to find this topic. I just installed a Kohler Cimmaron (high-boy) w/ tank. The rough in for the old american standard was 12" from finished wall to floor bolts. I bought a 12' rough Cimmaron from Indiana Pipe® and when I dry installed it, the tank is 2" away from the wall.
The Cimmaron has it's own stamp steel base for the tank to seat on two or three stamped knub-feet, but the tank isn't really supported if someone (and they will) leans back on the seat lid and the tank. You'll find these tanks leaning after about a year.
How could Kohler engineer a probelm design and release it on plumbers is unfathomable.
I'm calling Indiana® on Monday moriing to find out.

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Glide59: You must be from So. California. Here people do not like the space between toilet tank and wall. In fact, people hate it here. I was trying to explain this to our Experts here in the Forum some time ago but I don't think they understood. I am glad the customer has spoken...

Since 1994, Indiana is our primary supplier for all plumbing supplies. The guys behind the counter or even the branch manager cannot, and will not, do too much with your complaint. They just sell what ever merchandise is sent to them from main warehouse in Carson.

Which Indiana branch did you deal with ? See if you can call Mr. Ferguson, the Owner of Indiana or Cindy Ruttan. She oversees all 6 Indiana branches. She is a sharp cookie. They both sit in main office in Carson.The phone numbers for Carson branch are printed on top of your invoice. But even here, do not expect too much to happen.

I would call Kohler directly. They will listen.

Let us know how you did... Good luck... Milo

Yep, North County. I'm a leak detector and residential repair plumber. I pull stock from the Carlsbad branch. I called Tom the Indiana Pipe mngr.
He said the Cimmaron was their "top seller" and they've received no complaints. Since I dry-set the toilet for fit, he said I could bring it back. I ordered a Toto® Drake™ and will take the Cimmaron back when my Drake arrives in Carlsbad. Tom's a good guy. Everybody at Carlsbad are good guys. Tom didn't create the Kohler. I'm glad he's taken it back.
Since he was willing to take it back, I didn't try to "ice the cake" with the engineering mistake Kohler made.

The tank (all Cimmarons) do sit 2" away from the wall. That in it's self is not good. The tank being against the wall is part of the three point support, when people get up from the seat, over and over about a jillion times. It starts to loosen the toilet at the base.
The other grim fact is that the engineers put (4) stamped feet on the special Kohler tank mount. But, there should have been (5) feet. The fifth foot should have been directly in BACK of the mount, to support people leaning back on the seat. There is no (5th) mount so after about a jillion uses and "lean-backs" the tank is going to start tipping towards the wall (Gravity hates anything unsupported).
So, if Cindy Ruttan reads this she shoud be able to pick up on where Kohler went wrong.
None of the designers at Kohler are actual licensed plumbers. They have no idea how their product stands up over time.

Glide59: Good points. I echo everything you said. I have an issue with this for years. I even confronted Kohler rep in Indiana showroom several times. He agreed but - of course - Kohler still continues to make them their way.

Yes, of course, I know Carlsbad branch. When we do custom houses down south ( in Vista, Bonsall, Oceanside area... ), I order my supplies from Carlsbad branch and have them delivered to the job site. However, my main branches are Van Nuys and than Santa Ana.

I am glad you got it all resolved. TOTO is top of the line toilet. You should be happy with it. But I still think it is important to call Kohler and let them know this detail. More complaints they record, the better chance they will do something about it !

Best Regards... Milo

Milo,
I would email Indiana, if I had their e-dress. If you have one for them, cut and paste the html address of this topic.
My sister-in-law has a Toto Drake (high boy). She said the only thing she doesn't like about it. "..is that the seat moves around". When I told her you can tighten the seat bolts, she said, "..it's not that kind of seat".
Which means to me, that they bought one of those seats that has pivot hinges and that the pivots probably wear and get sloopy. No way to tighten.
I'll get a Kohler seat ! Or a plastic Bemis seat... (if it fits the Toto elongated bowl fits the seat outline nice and even).
Thanks for "quarterbacking" this valuable topic. Peace and no leaks. - kirk perry

Hey, Kirk, TOTO has the "self-closing" toilet seats. They are great. The lid closes by itself and does so so quietly you don't even hear it. TOTO includes this seat with some of their toilets.

Toilet seat will move if you don't put the plastic washers under the hinges. They are included in the installation package. Seat will slide over smooth porcelain surface if the washers are not used. Some plumbers toss them during installation or they are completely overlooked and thrown away with empty box.

Here is link on Indiana. However they do not include emails...
ePlumbing.com

Best Regards..

Milo

Thanks for the link, but I'd rather not call or email them, because Kohler can read :) and eventually they'll make a (5) leg tank-to-bowl bracket, instead of the tipsy (4) leg one. I can email this topic over to P&M's Jim Olstyinski and get his objective view.
[Many products get designed by "committee" and key element(s) get overlooked, in a rush to get the product to market. You'd have thought a Kohler engineer would have figured out, that trying to "re-invent the wheel" on a 100 yr. old. Plumbing principle (the tank needing to be against the wall, for 3-point support) and then placing the w.c. out in "space", with the tank lid 2" away from the finished wall. Rather than to be critical of Kohler (although it did take some licensed plumbers to figure it out for them! So what's new?)

I ordered a Toto (self closing) plastic seat (touching the top of the lid with your finger sends it down).
The seat profile matches the top of the bowl.
Your right Milo. The self-stick foam gaskets are part of the entire engineered product assembly.
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Someone earlier mentioned having an un-level closet base. Most times rocking closets are caused by an unlevel floor. The white soft plastic wedges will level a closet to about 3/16" out, but beyond that, imo, you risk breaking you wax ring seal. [A closet will sit level on a flat floor without the wax ring, so the horn is almost or even slightly recessed into the base.]
"Contractor short-reach" is a term I coined referring to TILING a bathroom floor.The tile can sometimes raise the floor above the closet ring (in the floor). No good, because of the short horn. Tile contractors, not being disciplined plumbers, often use (2) collarless wax rings stacked. Works for a while, but eventually the wax stack will collapse. Base will begin to leak over time. The "short reach" is actually the gap created between two different trades. A "no-mans responsibility" gap!
The fix, is to use a multi-stack "flange kit" from Indiana that will allow you to add as many (interlocking) black, plastic water-proof flanges (and long brass floor bolts) as you need to get the floor flange level or slightly above the floor.
Use a wide bead of (oil-based) Plumber's Goop or GE silicone (small tubes are $4.00) between the top of the floor flange and the bottom of the first plastic flange. Don't use the water base latex caulk that comes with the kit (water base, is water soluble).