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    aggrivatted's Avatar
    aggrivatted Posts: 4, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Apr 2, 2009, 10:36 AM
    I switched my old 3.5 gpf toilet with a new style 1.6 gpf. Now the water level in the bowl is lower than the internal trap. I tried 3 other new toilets. Still same thing. The water in the bowl is still too low. Why did the 3.5 gpf work fine but the 1.6 gpf doesn't hold water?

    Yes my tube is hooked up tight. I had 3 plumbers look at it scratching their heads as they left. I already stumped 3 plumbers with this. Do you think the 3.5 gpf will make the difference in bowl level.

    Thanks

    Do old style 3.5 gpf toilets have a higher internal trap than the new 1.6's?

    Which brand has the highest trap. My toilet drain is syphoning water out of the bowl. Would a higher tighter trap stop the syphoning?

    Yes there is a toilet above it. It works fine. I snaked the vents from the roof all the way to the basement. Both toilets share the same vent. Vent was clear. I change the downstairs toilet 6 times. I thought different toilet brands had their own trap design. Crane bowls seem to have the highest internal trap. My thoughts were if I had a higher trap in the bowl it would stop the suction.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #2

    Apr 2, 2009, 11:20 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by aggrivatted View Post
    I switched my old 3.5 gpf toilet with a new style 1.6 gpf. Now the water level in the bowl is lower than the internal trap. I tried 3 other new toilets. Still same thing. The water in the bowl is still too low. Why did the 3.5 gpf work fine but the 1.6 gpf doesn't hold water?
    There's a small tube that6 comes off the top of every ballcock,(see image) that hooks over the overflow tube in the flush valve, (see image).
    This small tu7be directs water into the bowl as the tank fills. If it isn't connected you'll have a low level in the bowl. Also the tank level should be adjusted to 1/2" lower then the top of the overflow tube. I've had many complaints about the 1.6 gal toilet. Most of them ask,
    If the 1.6 toilet is supposed to save water, why do I have to flush twice to get solids carried away?
    And now you know why I stiil keep my old 3.5 gallon toilets around. Regards, Tom
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    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #3

    Apr 2, 2009, 11:44 AM
    do you think the 3.5 gpf will make the difference in bowl level.
    Yep!
    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,825, Reputation: 1211
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    #4

    Apr 2, 2009, 12:19 PM
    I don't know about that Agrrivated... most 1.6 GPF work pretty great today.

    Does the water ever fill to the right level in the bowl? Then it slowly disappears? What brand water closet?

    Let me know

    MARK

    POST your reply here at this thread...OK? (click on button at upper left).
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #5

    Apr 3, 2009, 05:03 AM
    Mark, You asked,
    Does the water ever fill to the right level in the bowl? Then it slowly disappears? What brand water closet? Let me know
    But Aggravated has already installed three toilets with the same results.
    I tried 3 other new toilets. Still same thing. The water in the bowl is still too low.
    You're thinking "crack in bowl" but three cracked bowls in a row is very unlikely.
    You also stated that,
    I don't know about that Agrrivated... most 1.6 GPF work pretty great today.
    I've been retired for 20 years. Perhaps They've changed the design since then but when we first installed 1.6 toilets people were not very happy with them.
    As I said, the most common complaint was
    If the 1.6 toilet is supposed to save water, why do I have to flush twice to get solids carried away?
    I hope things are better now. Regards, Tom
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    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,825, Reputation: 1211
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    #6

    Apr 3, 2009, 06:08 AM
    Funny Tom... you went and combined all his posts so now it looks like I missed the first post he made, but I never did see his first post. I posted my answer to his post #3... then you combined all the posts... :p

    I remember some of my customers crying a few days after we removed the older 3.5 gallon toilets back in the late 80s...

    But, they have improved the 1.6 gpf toilets tremendously the last 5 years now. Especially the newer models with the 3" flush valves! These toilets no longer swirl around to flush... they just WHOOSH! To flush away... ;)



    Have a good day!

    MARK
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #7

    Apr 3, 2009, 06:34 AM
    Thanks for the update Mark. When I find back to back posts by the same sender I merge them . The poster should have edited the original post instead of starting a new one. I just do what should have been done in the first place. Sorry for the confusion. So whadda think his problem is? I just may have the answer. Read on!

    In my capacity as shop trouble shooter I began to run into a slew of complaints on our new construction 1.6 toilets that were just like yours. I knew they all couldn't be " bad toilets" so I went looking for the cause. I found that when installing the new bowl that the wax ring had been forced out into the discharge pipe and blocking the free flow of water. When the water hit it a backpressure was set up preventing the siphon that makes a good flush and the solids just swirled around while the water went slowly down. I had to set up meeting with our plumbers and show them the problem and how to fix it. When you set the bowl, put the wax seal down on the flat side to the closet flange. Then take your hands and bevel the wax seal outward so that when you set a bowl on it the wax is forced out instead of in blocking the flush. The customer complaints stopped and I had less work to do. Try molding the wax seal so it doesn't choke down on the flush. Just a thought, Tom
    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,825, Reputation: 1211
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    #8

    Apr 3, 2009, 06:53 PM
    Aggrivatted...

    We're going in the wrong direction with this... O.K. The issue is not going to be related to higher or lower internal traps... simply doesn't make sense that you have gotten the only 3 toilets that are an issue like this... something else is up.

    Please answer all my questions:

    You bought/installed three toilets and none of them will fill the toilet bowl water level to above the seal of the internal trap so you are getting sewer gasses into the home all the time.. right? I need to be clear on this fact... or is it that water disappears from the bowl over time?

    You also had 3 plumbers that could not help you by making any adjustments at the tank of the toilet... right? I'm wondering if any of them lifted the toilet and checked the drain pipe? How about the drain/vent system? Is there a bathroom above this toilet? Also, I just don't get any plumber walking away without discovering an answer to something like this!

    What happens if you fill the toilet bowl to above the internal trap by adding a gallon of water.. does the water disappear to below the trap over time? This could indicate that the bowl is getting siphoned by something or that there is a failure in the casting of the toilet bowl.

    Sounds to me like the issue is with the plumbing system or with the toilet installation as Tom suggested.

    Finally, were all 3 toilets of the same design? If so... what name brand? If so, you may want to go with another brand. I recommend toto toilets, american-standard and kohler toilets (in that order). They each have some very affordable, good flushing toilets... I guarantee it! You can find toto toilets online or at a local plumbing supply house. Home depot and Lowe's carry kohler and american-standard.

    Answer my questions and then we can give a final opinion... O.K.

    Thanks... MARK
    Milo Dolezal's Avatar
    Milo Dolezal Posts: 7,192, Reputation: 523
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    #9

    Apr 14, 2009, 07:04 AM

    Traps in toilets are made the same way for over 100 years. They are fine. I think your problem is somewhere else. Looks like your toilet is not properly vented. Is there another bathroom above ? Or close by ? Or washing machine ?
    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,825, Reputation: 1211
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    #10

    Apr 14, 2009, 08:44 AM
    Aggrivatted...

    You posted about this awhile back : https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/plumbi...pf-337042.html

    And I posted the below answer that you never answered. Please read and answer all my questions. POST ALL ANSWERS HERE by clicking on the POST REPLY BUTTON at the upper left.

    I posted:

    We're going in the wrong direction with this... O.K. The issue is not going to be related to higher or lower internal traps... simply doesn't make sense that you have gotten the only 3 toilets that are an issue like this... something else is up.

    You bought/installed three toilets and none of them will fill the toilet bowl water level to above the seal of the internal trap so you are getting sewer gasses into the home all the time.. right? I need to be clear on this fact... or is it that water disappears from the bowl over time?

    You also had 3 plumbers that could not help you by making any adjustments at the tank of the toilet... right? I'm wondering if any of them lifted the toilet and checked the drain pipe? How about the drain/vent system? Is there a bathroom above this toilet? Also, I just don't get any plumber walking away without discovering an answer to something like this!

    What happens if you fill the toilet bowl to above the internal trap by adding a gallon of water.. does the water disappear to below the trap over time? This could indicate that the bowl is getting siphoned by something or that there is a failure in the casting of the toilet bowl.

    Sounds to me like the issue is with the plumbing system or with the toilet installation as Tom suggested.

    Finally, were all 3 toilets of the same design? If so... what name brand? If so, you may want to go with another brand. I recommend toto toilets, american-standard and kohler toilets (in that order). They each have some very affordable, good flushing toilets... I guarantee it! You can find toto toilets online or at a local plumbing supply house. Home depot and Lowe's carry kohler and american-standard.

    Answer my questions and then we can give a final opinion...O.K.?

    Thanks... MARK
    letmetellu's Avatar
    letmetellu Posts: 3,151, Reputation: 317
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    #11

    Apr 15, 2009, 12:28 PM

    Someone told you to check the refill tube that is suppose to refill the water in the bowl to the right level. Well some of the commodes come with a valve that does not have this refill tube so therefore no water goes into the bowl after the flapper drops.

    Check your fill valve and if it does not have the refill tube I would change ballcocks and get one that will refill the bowl to the right level.

    I am only posting this information in case you do have a ballcock with out the refill tube. So if your's does have the refill tube just disregard my statements.

    Thank you.

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