So, I guess we can see where organized religion has gotten us thus far.
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So, I guess we can see where organized religion has gotten us thus far.
As far as natural disasters go, I think its more man getting in the way of things that will happen anyway, than it is any divine intervention.
As for innocents that die by the hand of man, that's entirely a result of the actions of man, and for whatever reason, we pay the consequences of repeating our mistakes, because we haven't learned from them... yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Well thank you tal. We are responsible for our own actions. We creat the different circumstances that lead to the different outcomes. So, let's blame GOD... let's blame anybody but ourselves!
Man getting in the way of natural disasters is something that could be corrected. Avoid all the agony they cause by not having them.
Man is not getting in their way by choice. It is random and good people are put through hell. I do believe in a "god". He resides in my essence. I do not believe that there is a being up here in the sky playing games with us. Like chess pieces. It seems to me that "faith" and "gods will" are the default answers for what doesn't make sense. I think I have always questioned things. I was around 5 or 6 yrs. Old when it dawned on me, there is no Santa Clause. This chimney story with flying reindeer, and getting to everyone's house in one night does not add up. To believe this stuff you got to be pretty gullible. So, please excuse my questions, but I keep digging until I get an answer that resonates as truth in my heart, soul, and mind.
I believe that WE ARE responsible for a LARGE percentage of the bad things that happen to us. I am not above blaming myself or man kind in general. But, what is your answer for the disasters and agony that are NOT any mans fault. I still haven't gotten an answer for that but no one wants to admit that "the god" that christians believe in would cause harm to people that do not deserve it. Please convince me of the goodness of this god.Quote:
Originally Posted by magprob
Your "war" seems to be directed a the Christian God my friend. Also, organized religion is not as blanketing as some portray it here. Let us just remove the labels of religion and focus on God, most here do believe in a God and none to my knowledge have disclosed what denomination they are from.
Why does God permit war, suffering, and hurt? Nobody can truly answer this because we can only know it in our hearts but not state it as fact. I do agree with the above interms of man inflicting this pain on man himself, however I did find something interesting I would like to bring up.
Many refer to people as good people, why do good people suffer, we are not the judge of these people nor those that appear to be bad people. My answer is we all suffer, yet we all experience joy. No human being, be it good or bad (hard to actually determine) is void of pain, nor of moments of love and happiness.
With that being said, if God stopped wars, stopped murders, stopped humans from doing bad things and only good was produced than what point to life would you suggest there is? Sounds as if God stopping these things would fit perfectly with your description of chess and organized religion. I cannot tell you the point of life, it is something man has considered for thousands of years. I can only say I believe it is to honor God through those you Love and even those you don't by your actions. If God controlled all my actions than even that would be controlled and we surely would be pieces on a chessboard.
Most troubles are caused by man, All humans are not perfect, judging those whom you yourself feel are good and don't deserve to suffer is not consistent with what God teaches us.
Finally, perhaps God does not stop evil with the hopes that we will (I'm sure I got that from somewhere:))
How can you expect an answer from man, about the ways of God??
If you want answers, then it can only come through a personal relationship, with the god that you understand.
We live in a world where two powers are at war, good and evil.
These powers are spiritual powers and are at work in us all the time. The good life is
The spirit that works for God is an abundant life of peace, love and joy. The
Power of evil is a satanic power that is here to kill,steal and destroy life as we know it here on earth. We all have these powers working in our mind to choose or reject.
We have good and evil thoughts that come into our minds all the time and it is up to us
To choose our own path good or evil. We feed our thoughts thinking on them,meditating
On them and believing in them. We are the one that choose good or evil. As long as
There is life, as it is now, there will be wars and rumors of wars. I believe God is
Testing us all the time to see what we choose good or evil. God made us in his image
And likeness and the evil one wants to destroy us. We purify our human hearts with
A Christ like heart and over come evil with good.
Maggie 3
Because God gives his people a free will to do good or bad we make our choices He does not control us.
First look at what jesus said in Mathew 24:6 "And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places."Quote:
Originally Posted by Choux
Jesus explains hear that wars must happen before the end comes. So why would God stop something that must happen. Also when God created us he gave us the choice of following him or not following him. Many people don't believe god exists because maybe they prayed to god asking God to give him/her proof that God exists but he didn't. That doesn't mean he doesn't exist. The bible says do not test god. Many people that search for proof that God exists lack lots of faith and are only testing God. Also if you do want proof that God exists, type under Google People Getting gold teeth from god. Its real its happening, and its amazing. Check it out and or check out the movie the "Finger of God." It shows it happening and is really cool. Also if you have questions about God or religon check out www.clearblogs.com/biblequestiondude and he can answer any of your questions.
Still no one has an answer to natural disasters that cause pain and suffering to people that have done nothing to bring that on. And, think of The Titanic, all the people who died and the loved ones they left behind by no fault of their own. " Free will" carries an enormous amount of weight in our destinies, BUT it doesn't carry all the weight, all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah_nicole
Does God cause this pain of innocent victims? I don't know...
In real life we know bad stuff can happen to good people.
To talaniman, in response to your disagreement,Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
I don't know the answer and I haven't heard one yet. You got one? One that holds water?
I don't know if it is right or not, but this is how I can make sense of these things, and I think that is partly what we as human beings strive to do... find ways that the unthinkable, the incomprehensible, can have some semblance of purpose... even if we don't like it or don't agree with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
Natural disasters... we can understand how they come about and the destruction they can cause. When people die, due to the effects of natural disasters, we can understand that... it is pretty obvious to us how this can happen given the frailty of the human body.
They also allow us to show our compassion for each other, for perfect strangers, whose lives we normally would never have cause to consider and to put others before ourselves. They allow us to cause change to try and prevent some of the effects from being repeated in the future.
Examples of how good comes out of horrible tragedies:
Adam Walsh... little boy who was kidnapped and horribly murdered... his father, John Walsh, went on to start The Center for Missing and Exploited Children as well as America's Most Wanted... among other programs. Would he have done these things, touched the lives of so many others, been instrumental in the capture of so many criminals and the return of so many children, protecting many others from experiencing the same thing that his family had to endure if that tragedy hadn't had happened?
Earthquakes, tsunamis, etc. have caused the development of better detection and warning systems, which in turn would save many more lives... would the money, effort, and energy have gone into their development and implementation other wise?
Premature babies, babies with birth defects who have died, and children who have suffered horrible illness... the start of The March of Dimes... which has focused on research, education, and measures to protect thousands of other babies who would have not made it if it had not been for those who didn't. Would Roosevelt have made those efforts if it hadn't been for his own experiences?
I have a little boy in my class whose brother has leukemia... because of the family having to deal with this, they have started a foundation that has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars worldwide for the drive of obtaining bone marrow donors, and a clearinghouse for information and physician contacts for families recently diagnosed and in the ongoing midst of battleing this horrible disease. They have also gotten many celebrities onboard who have the means to help bring attention to the cause with both their finances and public personalities. Odds are, this would never have come about if it had not touched their family.
The reality is, most people do not become involved in the plight of others, whether natural or manmade, until it effects them, or a loved one, directly. The vast majority of programs, foundations, research, development, medicines, safety practices, etc. that are in place to help those in need would probably not be around today if it had not been for some people having to have gone through horrible experiences.
Thank you Doula. THIS, I can make some sense of. It is pretty much how I have tried to put into perspective the unthinkable. You have to come up with some reasoning to make it bearable. About 5 years ago, a family of 4 was driving down a road her in Atlanta. All at once a huge tree fell onto the car and killed everyone in the family except the father. The cause was something like shallow root growth due to a drought, followed by a heavy thunder storm. No human played a part in that event and I would love to ask God, why??Quote:
Originally Posted by DoulaLC
About 10 years ago, a family of 4 went to Disney World. The little boy, age 7 stepped off the curb and into the traffic. His mom and dads reflex was to jump out and get him. Well, mom, dad, and little boy were killed, while on vacation. The 10 yr old daughter was the only survivor. We went to church with this family and had our daughters, and then our sons at the same time and we used to get together with our kids. The woman driving the car was not speeding or doing anything wrong but don't you know she lives with this tragedy everyday. All I can say is, God bless all these people that are burdened with this hell on earth. Seven yr. old boys are not suppose to die at Disney World. That boy would be 18 yrs old today, just like my son, sitting across the room from me right now.
Some people say, there but for the grace of God go I. This is a terrible thing to say because it implies that the victims did not receive Gods grace.:confused::(
>>>>>Some people say, there but for the grace of God go I. This is a terrible thing to say because it implies that the victims did not receive Gods grace.
And yet, some would feel othewise... that they did receive God's grace as they were called home. All depends on what you believe and how you look at it.
Who knows what that woman is doing now. She may have gone onto organize a driver awareness program, maybe she spoke at schools about safe driving, maybe she is involved in an organization that helps disadvantaged or abused children, maybe she works with a program like the Make A Wish foundation so that she can feel she is giving something back. Maybe she did none of those types of things, but is more aware of the precious gift she has in her own children and doesn't let a day go by that she isn't giving thanks for what she has as she reminds others she knows to do the same thing.
We often don't know how a tragedy will effect our lives... maybe within a year, maybe not for 15 years, but I think it will. I don't think we can avoid it. I think allowing it to effect us is part of what helps us to heal.
Don't know if it holds water, but its safe to say man has no control over the things that happens, or what happens to him. But it is within our control how we deal with it, and thats our choice. Now you can disagree, and see it whatever way you want, that's your choice, but for me, accepting the fact that stuff happens, and coping with it is the way I live. It holds water for me, if not for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
That's my choice also.:) My cup is usually half full, but sometimes it runs over.
I've always believed just what you said. That is the only power we have sometime. To make a decision how we will handle certain events. I don't think we will ever know the answer to the original posters question. Like so many things, we just do the best we can with what we are dealt.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
This is what I believe, There are two super-natural powers that
Are at work in our world, good and evil. The evil power delghts in hurting man
Causing him suffering, pain, anguish and death. The power of good is here to bring
Peace, harmony, love, happiness and abundant life of good. It is up to us to try
And understand what choices are best for us. That is what our life is made up with
Right and wrong choices,and what we believe in. There is a great deal of evil in the hearts of man, we hurt one another, war, crime, injustice, racism, and all kinds of pain and heartbreak. There is some of this in all of us. We can over come evil with good, change
Our evil ways of thinking when it comes into our thinking, [and it does to all of us ]
To good things. What good can I bring into some ones life, that what starts a change in our hearts that feels the good and evil that is in this world. We have the power in our mind to change things and make things better just like some of the things that have
Been said here. We do not need to wait until something bad happens to us before
Doing something good that will help other. The more I do for others the better I
Feel and want to keep doing. Evil will come in and try to stop you but do not give
In to it. Evil is here to stay in this world but we can over come evil with good. We
All pay a price to live in this world of good and evil. I believe in heaven
Where good reigns and there is no more evil. We are all making history with the life
We choose to live.
Maggie
I am not sure how to answer that but just to participate and give my opinion on it I think God is everywhere. God does have the power to stop all bad things from happening but giving his son to us for our salvation, us being born sinners, in a sinful world we enter here on earth to have choice. To have free will. To sin and repent. Life is composed of multitudes of tests and trials of man... it is how we surpass and grow above the hardships while maintaining our self righteousness and being accepting. Though many times we ask the Lord why and this is normal of humanity to ask... he will not interfere with man or the earth and I believe Noah's covenant is an example... his promise. Therefore, we are born to teach each other and to grow from each other... be thankful for what you have and help others in time of need. Maybe the people taken from us and crisis's all around the world is apart of serving life purpose... trust in God.
I do agree with DoglaLC's posts on this too.
God Does Not Cause Evil! There are two major evil forces that
Cause evil. The force of satan is one, he is the enemy of mankind, so he seeks to destroy
God and men and woman, who is made in the image of God. Most of our trouble in this
World is the result of this evil satan causes. The evil in the Human Heart is the second
One. Because of the evil in mans hearts , they hurt one another, and we have wars.
Because of evil in the hearts of man we have wars, crime, injustice, racism, and all kinds of pain and heartbreak. Evil has a tendency to multply itself because of our nature.
If God did not give man the chance to be evil, there would be no freedom. God gave man
Freedom to choose between good and evil since He created the first man Adam.
The fall of Adam brought pain and suffering into the world, read Genesis 3.
We humans are linked together in wisdom and blessings of those that lived before us,
But we also receive an inheritance from their curses and evil. The good news is
We can overcome evil, through Jesus Christ the Son of God. I hop ethis helps you understand a little better, reading and studying the bible will answser your questions.
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock and it will be opened
to you. For everyone who asks receives, and who seeks finds, and to him who knocks
it wii be opened." MATTHEW 7:7-8 GET AN EASY READING BIBLE YOU WILL BE ABLE
TO UNDERSTAND IT BEST. If you want to know the truth about life you will read and
Study Gods word, the bible.
Maggie 3
Maggie3 - I understand your reasoning and why you made those arguments but if I were to play devil's advocate for a second, it sounds as if God is completely handcuffed by human decision and by Satan... it doesn't sound like an all powerful God if all of these things are happening in the world and he has to just stand by and watch them because he does not want to interfere with the will of creatures.
I want to try to answer the original post but I also wanted to try and challenge your points by offering this:
Maggie, do you ever pray for God's protection from evil? In other words, suppose you were to go someplace dangerous, like Iraq or Syria, would you pray for God's protection? Would you trust that God would protect you?
If he will always honor our free-will choices and the choices of others, they praying and asking God for protection would be pointless because if someone wanted to kill you because you were a Christian (for example), God isn't going to stop him. This is the logical outcome of your point I believe.
What do you think?
Like a good parent God wants you to solve your own problems. He can guide you, but he cannot live for you. That's up to you.
No Jakester, God is not evil, He gives life.God does answer my
Payers I have faith in Him and a intimate rellationship. He does not answer prayers
For people who do evil.
Maggie 3
If there is a god, he is far different than the one described in the bible. And who knows about that jesus guy, kind of shady
You'll never know until you have a personal relationship with the God that you understand.Quote:
If there is a god...
There's a quote that I really like..
"if people trash God, why do they get so surprised when this world is so bad?"
We all sin, God gave us free will and the choice whether we want too or not. Hitler chose to kill all the people he did. Not God. God is there working with each of us individually but because he gave us choice.. if we chose not to listen and not to follow what he stands for (love) then how can we blame Him?
I believe God tries very hard and wants us all to work as one body but most of the world chooses not too accept God, therefore they're letting in all the bad things in the world.
That's just my thoughts..
Hope this helps..
:)
Your logic falls flat because even people who have accepted God do bad things. Being a christian does not automatically make you a better person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguinio
Maggie - I didn't say he was evil... I don't think you understood my point. Could you just refer back to my earlier post and think about what I am asking? I do think it is an important biblical question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
Sincerely.
Yes I pray for protection everyday because I am a child of God. God is not the God
Of the wicked. God does not answer or honor the prayers 0f a person who is not a child of God. The bible is for God's children , if you don.t have the Holy Spirit to guide you and give you understanding,the bible will not be a benefit to you. None of His promises are for the evil ones, or unbelievers. God is not of evil or has any part in evilness. God is good to those who choose to follow Him . We live in a world of good and evil, God has to give satan permission before he can cause any adversity or suffering in the life of a believer. God in the 91 Psalm tells us that we should pray for protection and a covering over us from the Lord. I stand on Paul's word in 2 Cor 5:7, I walk by faith not by sight.
God said and I believe. " God causes all things to work for good to those who love God and to those who are callled according to His purpose." Rom 8:28.
On this side of heaven we will never understand how all things can work together for good for God's children--certainly, not all things in themselves are good---but God knows how He will do it. And in Him we trust. Again, I walk by faith and not by sight or feelings.
Children of God should be walking in faith, [trusting and obeying God] and remembering God is in control.
MAGGIE 3
Of what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
God is in control of everything and is in everything. He even made satan. Satan can only do what God allows. Read the book of Job in old testsment. It tells how satan had to have God's permission to make Job suffer. But when you are not a child of God you are on your own.
MAGGIE 3
If God is in control of everything, then there's no free will, and hence no sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
If Satan needs God's permission, then that means God said the Holocaust was okay. It means God says it's okay for the innocent to suffer and die horribly. It means...
You see where I'm going with this.
If God is in control of *everything*, then God is responsible for the evil that is done. So maybe you don't want to say that he is in control of *everything*. God can still be omnipotent without exercising his omnipotence always and everywhere.
If God Existed. Then could someone explain to me why he made this world?? Some kinds joke.We are supposedly here so we can do right. Find the right religion? Seems to me that we are in a big reality show with God watching it.
God is a concept created by humans to describe and attributable to un explained phenomenon
If there's some god we won't have a clue how he or she works?
We are mere reflections of him/her as one sees the image of sun in mirror and reflects the brilliance but never will produce the heat that's generated by the sun!
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